.38 Long Colt

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

 

I will freely admit that I have an aversion to .38 Special for Cowboy shooting.   I know it's a perfectly good caliber, and has many things going for it.  But for some reason, it just "feels wrong" to me.  (How's that for weird?)

As such, don't own any cowboy guns chambered for this caliber, or .357 Magnum.   (Oddly, I do have guns in .44 Special and .44 Magnum, which theoretically, I should have the same objections too, but don't.  Go fig.)

But I DO have a few gun chambered for .38 Long Colt.  Some antiques, and some modern made cap and balls that have been cartridge converted as well as some guns that are not SASS legal but still fun to own and shoot.    Some my guns in this caliber have the older .375" bore, and some have the later .357" bore.  As such, I load this caliber with a 150 grain hollow base .358" bullet.  It works well in all the guns, and with both smokeless and black powder.

But what about a rifle for this cartridge?  My brother had a Rossi 92 in .357 Magnum, but when I tried to see if it would cycle Long Colt, it didn't work.    I've read that there is a carrier you can install in a 73 that'll let you run .38 Short Colt, but is there one for .38 Long Colt?   In truth, the obtaining of a rifle for the cartridge is more of an after thought.   At this point I'm just wondering if there is an option.   Maybe a Remington Revolving Carbine with conversion cylinders?  (No wait, not SASS legal!     That and I think they are all .44's anyway.)  

Anyone else shoot at least revolvers in this old time caliber? 
 

Finally, conversions aside, I am fairly certain that no new guns have been made in this caliber in decades.   Does anyone know when the last guns made in the caliber rolled out of the various gun maker's factories?  I know it was fairly quickly eclipsed by .38 Special in new guns, but I know you could still get factory ammo fairly recently.  

[Rowdy Ranger Rick]

I have 3 older model Marlins, barrel is stamped .357 Mag. One is a Widdermatic, a Spur Marlin, and one with a little bit of smoothing done. All 3 will run .357, .38 Sp., and .38 Long Colt with any type of nose. I have loaded the magazine with a mix of all 3 bullets in a SASS match with no problems. I told the brass' picker uppers' I would be shooting a variety to ensure I got all my brass back. I'm not saying all Marlins in .357 or .38 Sp. will run .38 long colt, but I do believe some Marlins can handle a variety of shorter OAL length better than any other make of rifle. Have you got some Marlins in .357 or .38, pull them out and load up some .38 Long Colt.

 

As a side note, I have shot .38 LC and .38 SC in my SASS pistols, and have shot .38 SC in my S & W 327 in USPSA and IDPA/GADPA matches (in moon clips helps with reloading on the clock, had to experiment with powders to make minimum power factor). I have read some pros that shoot revolver in matches also shoot .38 SC.

 

RRR

[Sedalia Dave]

A very talented gunsmith could modify the carrier and both cartridge guides to allow a 92 to shoot 38 short colt. However it would most likely cost more to convert the rifle than the rifle would cost new.

When it was done the rifle would no longer feed 38s or 357s.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

There are some "possibilities"   A "Widdermatic" Marlin could easily be set up to run 38 Long Colt.  A 92 is highly unlikely.  While theoretically possible, it's a long shot and as Sedalia Dave pointed out, the '92 would then be 38 LC Only.  Not highly desirable.  At one time, "The Smith Shop" was making custom carriers for short 38 cartridges, same same as their carriers for Large Bore cartridges, specifically for the '73 and '66.  As far as I know, the small bore carriers are no longer available for short cartridges and I'm not sure they still do the carriers for Large Bore since Happy Trails retired. 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Based on the above, I am feeling like I am very unlikely to search out a rifle in .38 Long Colt.   I'm not keep on doing one way modifications, and the other options don't seem to me to worth the effort.

But there are/were a lot of interesting revolvers chambered for it over the years.   I may or may not obtain a few more. 

All that being said, I think I might break out my factory conversion 58 Remington this weekend.   Maybe I'll pair it with my Spencer...   

[Sawhorse Kid]

5 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

Finally, conversions aside, I am fairly certain that no new guns have been made in this caliber in decades.

 

Mains stream guns...not likely.

Cowboy guns, absolutely yes.

[Roscoe Regulator]

5 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

I will freely admit that I have an aversion to .38 Special for Cowboy shooting.   I know it's a perfectly good caliber, and has many things going for it.  But for some reason, it just "feels wrong" to me.  (How's that for weird?)

As such, don't own any cowboy guns chambered for this caliber, or .357 Magnum.   (Oddly, I do have guns in .44 Special and .44 Magnum, which theoretically, I should have the same objections too, but don't.  Go fig.)

But I DO have a few gun chambered for .38 Long Colt.  Some antiques, and some modern made cap and balls that have been cartridge converted as well as some guns that are not SASS legal but still fun to own and shoot.    Some my guns in this caliber have the older .375" bore, and some have the later .357" bore.  As such, I load this caliber with a 150 grain hollow base .358" bullet.  It works well in all the guns, and with both smokeless and black powder.

But what about a rifle for this cartridge?  My brother had a Rossi 92 in .357 Magnum, but when I tried to see if it would cycle Long Colt, it didn't work.    I've read that there is a carrier you can install in a 73 that'll let you run .38 Short Colt, but is there one for .38 Long Colt?   In truth, the obtaining of a rifle for the cartridge is more of an after thought.   At this point I'm just wondering if there is an option.   Maybe a Remington Revolving Carbine with conversion cylinders?  (No wait, not SASS legal!     That and I think they are all .44's anyway.)  

Anyone else shoot at least revolvers in this old time caliber? 
 

Finally, conversions aside, I am fairly certain that no new guns have been made in this caliber in decades.   Does anyone know when the last guns made in the caliber rolled out of the various gun maker's factories?  I know it was fairly quickly eclipsed by .38 Special in new guns, but I know you could still get factory ammo fairly recently.  

If the premise is that the ammo for both pistols and rifle must be the same, that is not the case and not that hard to manage with appropriate loading strips and attention. I shoot 38 Long Colt in 38 Special/38 Colt Cimarron Lightnings and .357 magnum in my Lightning rifle. If I am doing one of my 45 caliber matches, I have 45 Cowboy Special in my pistols, and 45 Colt in my rifle. It seems the rifles of all stripes run more reliably, if at all, on full length cartridges. Those shooting 38s are usually using loads with the bullet seated forward of the crimp groove and bullets with a truncated cone to run better on the ramp into the chamber. What really works often depends on how the rifle was prepared.

[Tom Bullweed]

Might be easier to take a Henry Big Boy in .357 and add a stop screw on the carrier so only only cartridges fits.

Not as pretty or correct as pre-1899 designs, but it should work.

 

[Sedalia Dave]

As RRR posted above a Marlin can be set up to run 357, 38 Spcl, and 38 Long Colt without too much difficulty. I suspect that it would run 38 Short Colt as well.

[Long Johns Wolf]

I am shooting a pair of Colt 1861 Navies converted to Richards-Masons in  .38 LC as main match pistols.

One is a Uberti 4-screw frame, the other a 2nd gen. Colt.

Their barrels were cut to 6".

My back-up is a 2nd gen. Colt 1851 converted to .38 LC.

All three pistols were fitted with .357" liners.

Long Johns Wolf

[DeaconKC]

I had a Rossi 92 that would not feed 38 Specials with bullets under 140 grains. With 158 or 160 grain bullets, it worked okay. I wonder if you couldn't load a longer bullet in the Long Colt case to get the length for it to run reliably.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

2 hours ago, DeaconKC said:

I had a Rossi 92 that would not feed 38 Specials with bullets under 140 grains. With 158 or 160 grain bullets, it worked okay. I wonder if you couldn't load a longer bullet in the Long Colt case to get the length for it to run reliably.

 

You probably could to that.  Between a "longer" bullet and maybe crimping in the lube groove, you could get a sufficient OAL.   But would such cartridges still fit in revolvers?

Could be an interesting experiment.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy H. K.

 

In 1899 Smith and Wesson had perfected the design for their new K framed 38 caliber, double action Military and Police revolver. They originally planned to chamber it for the .38 United States Service Cartridge (38 Long Colt). But reports were coming back about the cartridge's poor stopping power in the Philippine Insurrection. So the decision was made to lengthen the case a bit and increase the powder charge from 18 grains to  21.5 grains of Black Powder. Thus the 38 Smith and Wesson Special cartridge was born, also known simply as 38 Special.

 

This is a page from a reprint of the 1900 Smith and Wesson Catalog, showing the new revolver.

 

 

 

 

 

This page describes the two cartridges the new revolver was chambered for, 38 S&W Special and 32 Winchester (32-20). Also illustrated is the powder charge for the 38 Government Cartridge. Because the new 38 Special was simply a lengthened version of the 38 Long Colt, the new revolver could fire either cartridge.

 

 

 

 

 

Here is my nickel plated 38 Military and Police Model of 1899 that shipped in 1899. Easily identified by the lack of a latch under the barrel for the front of the ejector rod. Interestingly enough, this particular revolver has no caliber markings, but it is chambered for the 38 S&W Special cartridge.

 

 

 

 

 

 

P.S. This photo shows the comparative length of several of the cartridges we have talked about.

 

Left to right they are 32-20, 38 Long Colt, 38 Long Colt, 38 Special, and 38-40.

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

As always, Driftwood makes some excellent points, gives great pictures, and as often as not, prompts me to post some pics as well.  

Here is my S&W Model 1899.  Left view

Right View


Let there be no doubt as to what model it is. 

 

Here's the caliber marking.

 

S&W .38 MIL

Now, here is where it gets interesting.  Here's a pic of a .38 Long Colt on the left, and the .38 Special on the right.

 

Obviously, the Special is quite a bit longer than the Colt round.   Now, according to one book I have, the Army did buy 1000 of these pistols chambered for .38 Long Colt before the switch was made to .38 Special.  According to the marking on the grips, this pistol was obtained in 1901.   According to the person I bought it from, it's one of the 1000 in .38 Long Colt.   So look at this...

 

As you can see, the .38 Long Colt cartridge loads just fine, but the Special will not go all the way in.     You can also see the JTT 1901 mark on the grip.

So it seems that yes, there were some of these 1899's that were chambered for the Long Colt before they invented the .38 Special round.

By the way, I also have one in .32-20, and a pair in .38 S&W.  One is a pre-Victory model from Canada, and a Victory Model from Australia.   Ones in .38 Special, which I don't yet have, were purchased in WWII, and remained in service until they, along with the 1911, were retired in the mid 1980's.   This makes the S&W Model 1899/M&P/10 America's longest serving service pistol. 

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

Colt Revolvers - top two are .38 long colt and the bottom is 38-40.

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

I just learned a LOT. Thanks Driftwood et al., for the expertise and for sharing it.