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Choosing a Good "Original" SxS Shotgun


El Sobrante Kid

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Howdy to the Fire,

      It's been a while since I've been around. Now retired, moved out of CA (no jokes please), and settled in to a new home, with a range nearby, and a nice CAS group, I'm looking forward to getting back to doing some shooting. I still have all my gear, except for my trusty SxS. I'd like to find and use an older original with internal hammers and double triggers.

 

  Looking at current prices, I have seen Fox Sterlingworths, Ithaca Flues, Husqvarna's, and LC Smiths. All of them have been cut down to barrel lengths of 24" to 28", negating any collector value, and making them "reasonably" affordable for CAS. BUT... I do know that not all SxS's are created equal, LOL. Some open farther, have better safety's, better triggers, etc.

 

  So here I am, looking to the Fire to share their experiences, comments, suggestions, and advice. Which of the old originals are good to go, and which are best to stay away from? Feel free to mention manufacturers and models that I did not. Please note that I will never be fast, so competitive speed is not a requirement. I just want to shoot an older SxS when I can, and enjoy the hell out of it.   Appreciate your help,   The Kid

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Keep in mind none of the old guns were made to shoot modern ammo. Most of them will have short chambers and no forcing cones compatible with folded crimp shells and plastic wads.  The old guns, provided they are in good health,  work OK with black powder,  brass hulls or roll crimped loads.

 

Most built before 1890 will have Damascus or other laminated barrels.  There is a great debate if they are safe to shoot.  Steel barrels didn't start becoming available until 1900. 

 

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I have a hardware store gun made in 1900.  it's a shooter's grade for sure.  it's labeled Crescent (I think it was made on Fox Tools), and was originally sold out of a hardware store in St. Louis.  it's not a gamer's gun but it is fun to have an original and I like the patina.  didn't hurt that I bought it, shipped and transferred for $200.  I have to be delicate with the wood screws and have had to repair some of the holes they go into a couple times.  it needs the chambers polished and likes to stick when I go to open it.  although it's rated for smokeless, I should probably switch to black and I'll have more fun that way anyway.  

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Doesn't matter what brand if gun is in poor condition.   Barrels could have dents or bulges or even bent.  Loose barrel ribs. "Off face" (not locking up correctly.).  Cracks in butt stock, often in wrist area.  Any missing or broken part will be difficult to replace, if not impossible.  

 

Do you want to shoot a vintage gun for nostalgia?   Or trying to save money?

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Thanks for the comments. Not trying to save money, it will probably end up costing me a  bit more going this route. I just enjoy shooting the older guns that are still in good condition. Regarding the repairs/broker parts issue, I will not buy a junker. Whatever I buy, it will be in very good condition, and 100% safe to shoot. As far as how old... probably as far back as the 20's. So modern steel barrels, no damascus.

 

My old SxS was a Stevens 311 that I did the opening mods on, and slicked up the chambers. Loved that shotgun.

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Just to add a little colorful background... when I used to go to the gun shows, a LONG time ago as a kid, I used to see damascus barreled SxS's for around $75+. You could get a low grade Parker with damascus barrels for $150-$200. When I started shooting CAS, it was my dream to get an old Parker 10g damascus barreled shotgun, and have a set of Briley 12g tubes installed. By then it was too much money, so it ever happened. So there is a limit on how much I'm willing to spend, LOL.

 

Hope everyone has a great weekend,   The Kid

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Jack Spade, finding an old SxS is easy, including the Stevens. BUT, I'm hoping for some suggestions as to what makes and models just won't work well (don't open far enough, have auto safety engagement that can't be modified, etc.). Or the opposite, makes and models that open up more than average, and have generally proved themselves over time as good CAS guns. What I need most... is the experience(s) of those that have gone down this same road, before me. THX!

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1 hour ago, El CupAJoe said:

 I should probably switch to black and I'll have more fun that way anyway.  

YES! Come to the Dark Side Brother!

 

36 minutes ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

My old SxS was a Stevens 311 that I did the opening mods on, and slicked up the chambers. Loved that shotgun.

Seems to me like this is your answer. I know you are looking for other options, but why? You loved that shotgun, go get one like it.  I kinda doubt you'll find anything better.

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The best hammerless double I've ever owned was a Parker DH that I rebuilt from a project unfinished by an old gunsmith.  The wood was new, metal refinished,  barrels not original to this gun.  I traded it for second generation Colt SAA and got boot.  Probably not as good as a Stoeger coach gun for cowboy action shooting.

 

5a83639d33f18_ParkerDHtogetherFeb2018.jpg.0d9edcd6c5acab84fd872b537b80763c.jpg

 

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Hi Tyrel,   You have a point, a good one. Sadly, my OCD will never let me make such a simple choice, LOL. Being retired, with a little bit of money in my pocket to burn, I ask myself, "What would be an upgrade? What is the best/nicest SxS that I can get for the jingle in my pocket?" So I may end up with another Stevens 311, but now I'm on the hunt, and that itch won't be satisfied until I feel like I've found the "right" gun. I appreciate all the thoughts and comments.

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I lucked into a Remington 1889 with fluid steel barrels.  That's a hammered gun, though.  It worked real well, but of course it had 30" barrels and was heavy.     Decided to let it stay in the gun safe for all but an occasional cowboys clays match. 

 

The Remington 1900 is an internal hammer gun that has aged real well.

 

But for serious gaming, you will want an SKB (or a BSS if you don't care for a gun as whippy and light as the SKB).  These are both 30+ years old at this point.   Even a Miroku (or Daly) 500, which is very similar to the Browning BSS.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

How old? A Charles Daly from the 70's makes a really nice CAS shotgun.

 

Tyrel, thanks for the info, this is the kind of thing I'm looking for. While I'm drawn mote to the older guns, I would like to hear about SxS's that have proven themselves to be  really good (or bad) for CAS. IIRC, the SKB's are also very highly regarded.

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2 minutes ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

 

Tyrel, thanks for the info, this is the kind of thing I'm looking for. While I'm drawn mote to the older guns, I would like to hear about SxS's that have proven themselves to be  really good (or bad) for CAS. IIRC, the SKB's are also very highly regarded.

 

Well, the SKBs are the BEST double barrel there is for thos game; but getting very hard to find at least hard to find for less than $1400.

 

If your search brings you to a CD 500, holler; I've got one that's a little tarnished and a little stiff to open  but otherwise a great shotgun.

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A good solid gun for cowboy action is the Browning B-SS and they are constantly being sold on Gunbroker. I feel that it is probably the most reliable gun being used in cowboy action. I don't feel that it has the  feel that an SKB has, which make which makes the SKB the  most popular shortgun in cowboy action.

Johnny Meadows

The Brownings were also discontinued in the 80's.

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4 minutes ago, Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L said:

A good solid gun for cowboy action is the Browning B-SS and they are constantly being sold on Gunbroker. I feel that it is probably the most reliable gun being used in cowboy action. I don't feel that it has the  feel that an SKB has, which make which makes the SKB the  most popular shortgun in cowboy action.

Johnny Meadows

The Brownings were also discontinued in the 80's.

Thank you sir. I haven't been around for a while, but I recognize your name, and I know to respect your opinion. Thank you for taking the time to make a recommendation. If you have a minute or two, would you share your thoughts on the Fox Sterlingworth, Ithaca, or LC Smith, SxS's for use in CAS.   The Kid

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Looking at the Fox Sterlingworth, Ithaca and LC Smith.

Of the three I like the LC Smith the best, then the Ithaca, which I've handled and shot many times, then the Fox. I feel that, reading you wants for your new gun, any of these three would suit your wants. They would all take a little work to improve them for cowboy action.

J.M.

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24 minutes ago, Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L said:

Looking at the Fox Sterlingworth, Ithaca and LC Smith.

Of the three I like the LC Smith the best, then the Ithaca, which I've handled and shot many times, then the Fox. I feel that, reading you wants for your new gun, any of these three would suit your wants. They would all take a little work to improve them for cowboy action.

J.M.

 

Again, thank you for your suggestions. And I extend that to everyone that has taken the time to make a comment. I do understand that just about anything I get, will have to be gone through by a competent smith (unless it has already been set up for CAS).   The Kid

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4 hours ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

Howdy to the Fire,

      It's been a while since I've been around. Now retired, moved out of CA (no jokes please), and settled in to a new home, with a range nearby, and a nice CAS group, I'm looking forward to getting back to doing some shooting. I still have all my gear, except for my trusty SxS. I'd like to find and use an older original with internal hammers and double triggers.

 

  Looking at current prices, I have seen Fox Sterlingworths, Ithaca Flues, Husqvarna's, and LC Smiths. All of them have been cut down to barrel lengths of 24" to 28", negating any collector value, and making them "reasonably" affordable for CAS. BUT... I do know that not all SxS's are created equal, LOL. Some open farther, have better safety's, better triggers, etc.

 

  So here I am, looking to the Fire to share their experiences, comments, suggestions, and advice. Which of the old originals are good to go, and which are best to stay away from? Feel free to mention manufacturers and models that I did not. Please note that I will never be fast, so competitive speed is not a requirement. I just want to shoot an older SxS when I can, and enjoy the hell out of it.   Appreciate your help,   The Kid

 

I  love my antique shotguns.   

 

But I do NOT recommend vintage shotguns unless you are an advanced tinkerer like Warden is.  Vintage guns will generally not hold up to what we put them through for SASS, even if you have no intention of being competitive. Repairs are very expensive with parts hard to find or if parts have to be re-made by the very small group of qualified gunsmiths who work on vintage & antique SxS shotguns.  As an example I had to replace the two screws that held the hammers to the action.  It cost me $300 for a gunsmith to make new ones and antique them to match the rest of the gun.   

 

A new stock will run between $5000-$8000 PLUS the blank if it has to be shaped, inletted, fit and finished by hand.  I am in the process of restoring an antique SxS.  It cost me $750 and I expect to put about $3000 or more restoring it to about 80% of original condition.

 

 

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Just a clarification, if its even needed; I don't want the difficulties of shooting Antique, Rare, or Expensive, shotguns. I want to shoot an Older shotgun. There must be, literally, tens  and tens of thousands of well built, solidly made shotguns out there. Shotguns that are robust enough to use for monthly CAS matches, that have parts available for basic repairs, and that have many, many years of useful life left in them. You have all been great, and your suggestions are appreciated.

 

Thank You Muchly,   The Kid

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You are looking for a double-barreled unicorn, quite frankly.

 

Yes, there are lots of well-used and even some lightly used doubles around, since they have been made now for over 120 years, by dozens of reputable (and even lousy reputation) companies.   But a solidly made double is not common.  Most designs are not strongly locked, nor well stocked.  So after a couple of decades, they either have "shot loose" and even fail to stay locked, or they break the butt stock at the wrist or mating surface to the receiver.

 

Thousands of SASS shooters have looked for the unicorn of a "good, solid, quick older double barrel, that can be bought for less than a princess's ransom,"   The best ones that fit the bill for use in SASS matches, as proved by lots of top shooters running them hard for years, are:

 

Ithaca SKBs

Browning BSS

Miroku built Model 500s (with either  a Miroku or Charles Daly import)

 

And, if you have the pockets for it, the Winchester 21 will work well, too.   :o

 

A few of the new Turkish built doubles that are coming to market may displace these jewels in the futuure.   As Turkish factories learn to really run CNC equipment and apply suitable hand work to finish tune the guns, they will probably be very competitive.

 

Remember that for a double barrel shotgun, or any gun we use in SASS, to become really popular, it must be somewhat affordable, fast to operate, reliable to fire thousands of rounds a year through, repairable without weeks or months of downtime,  and have enough shooters using them that a sufficient cadre of experienced gunsmiths who can work on the guns will  be formed.

 

When you venture into the "graveyard of old forgotten doubles" you have to be willing to make parts and even do your own gunsmithing, or  find that paid gunsmithing for the old guns has a long wait time and often fails to give perfect results.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

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4 hours ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

Warden,   beautiful Parker! Besides the barrels being too long for CAS

 

I must disagree most strongly!

My "original" Parker, the one I got from my father, has factory 18" barrels.  It is a sweet shooter, and kicks like a mule.

My second Parker has 30" F/F barrels, and the recoil is much more pleasant.

But let that go.   I have long felt that longer barrels are better with the shotgun.   My first Main Match shotgun was a 97 with a 20" barrel.  It served me well.  I wanted to get one with a long barrel, just to have one.  When I found one, I of course tried it just for fun at a match.   Well, it is now my primary Main Match shotgun.  See, unlike with the shorter barrel, I hardly ever miss the SG targets or fail to make them fall.    That would happen to me pretty regularly with the shorter barrels.

My first 87, also an original, has a 30" barrel. and I think it's great.   (I do have an 18" 87 in "Terminator" configuration, but that's just for fun.)

 

Anyway, although I am primarily a 97 time, I want to occasionally shoot a SxS, but the short barreled Parker just hurts too much.   So, I found one with longer barrels, and have never looked back.   Even when you touch off both barrels, it still has tolerable recoil.   Pretty stout, but not horridly painful.   And using a long barreled shotgun gets you a lot of fun commentary from other shooters.   

And yes, if you are patient, you can find a Parker in good shooting condition with a fluid steel barrel for a reasonable price.  It might be ugly, most likely a Trojan, but it will be servicable.

As far as getting them around and through the props, it's not difficult at all.   Yeah, the first couple of times, you need to train yourself to do it, but it doesn't take long for it to become second nature and you can do it with no troubles.

Long barrels on shotguns are great! 

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HK, I'm more in agreement, than disagreement (though I still think Warden's Parker was a beauty, LOL). My 311 had 26" barrels, and I'll be looking for 24"-28" barrels on any SxS I end up getting. My Sweetie will probably be using this shotgun along with me, so longer barrels will help to soak up some of the recoil.

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I have to disagree with most of the posters about the old guns all need work.  If you are not competitive you are not jaming the gun open and closed pounding parts.  I have a Stevens that started out rabbet hunting in 1947 that has collected 1000's of rabbets, I started SASS in 1995 with it, and still going strong.  I have never been fast so my guns have held up.  I have seen many gunsmith guns break after a few seasons.  Gunsmiths wear parts to make the fast guys increase their times by 0.01 sec..  Yes I like a smooth trigger pull but 3 lb or 5 lb trigger pull is the same to me.  Doing a Rockweel "c" test on a good old SxS I have found that the sear and trigger are harder than the old cheap guns and a lot of the new guns.  I would recommend you find a 28"-30" barreled good 1920-1950 made SxS that you can buy and shoot a season or two before you have work done on it.

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Maybe look for some Hunter brand SxS'. They owned L.C.Smith and made the Hunter as their budget/working line.

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2 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Get a Stoeger and pretend it's an old shotgun, after all we "pretend" to be cowboys!!:lol:

 

A line from one of the best movies ever made seems to be appropriate here, "My hypocrisy only goes so far!"

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4 hours ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

 

A line from one of the best movies ever made seems to be appropriate here, "My hypocrisy only goes so far!"

None of us are cowboys, we all live in 2021 so get yourself a new sg and save yourself the headache of dealing with an old gun. You could have lots of problems, I did. 

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