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You've circled the wagons.....


Buckshot Bear

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They are 45 Colt. That's why I posted them in my post about the difference between the older 45 Colt brass and the newer 45 Colt brass.

 

Brass used to be made by folding it. That meant that it had a lot of empty space down around the primer pocket. This was called balloon head brass. And, as you can see, there is very little rim on that case, so there would be nothing for the extractor to grab hold of. The other brass, known as solid head brass, has an extractor groove cut into it, so even though it still has a little itty bitty rim, it has a spot for the extractor to grab.

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Johnny, you can do without your coffee B). The first picture was Benet primed. And the cases were mostly copper. Might have had a little zinc in it, which would make it harder than pure copper, but it had a much greater percentage of copper than modern cartridge brass.

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Just now, Alpo said:

Johnny, you can do without your coffee B).

WHAT!?!?!?! You Philistine!

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He said that he could not remember Benet primer because he had not yet had his coffee. I couldn't give him his coffee - Smith's Station is too far north - but I could tell him the word he was looking for, so he didn't need his coffee.

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10 hours ago, Buckshot Bear said:

From reading some ballistic charts, if I'm reading them right, the 357 is flatter shooting and has more energy? 

Flat shooting is overrated and is a modern concept.  All it does is make it easier for the shooter because they don't have to think as hard or adjust for bullet drop nearly as much or as often.

 

Buffalo guns of the era had rainbow trajectories throwing really heavy to the modern eye bullets at muzzle velocities that barely broke the sound barrier.  The thing is, it's a consistent rainbow trajectory and a consistent low velocity so the shooter can make the necessary aiming adjustments to hit what they want.

 

Yet they were used at long range for hunting, war and target shooting from the get-go. 

 

The first Creedmoore match was shot in 1874 by a team of Americans using Remington and Sharps cartridge breech loaders against a team of Irishmen- who were shooting front stuffers.  The Americans won- by 1 shot.

 

Then, there's the Billy Dixon shot at Adobe Walls, also in 1874, during the Red River War.  Many of the besieged participants of that battle were professional hunters that specialized in hunting bison and used the rifles of their trade in defense of their position.

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A A .357 Magnum, Cor-Bon Jacketed Hollow Point, 140gr

B B .45 Colt (.45 Long Colt), Cor-Bon JHP + P, 200gr

Range Drop
(inches)
Velocity Energy Wind drift
(inches)
Time
(milliseconds)
A B A B A B A B A B
0 -1.4775 -1.4707 1299 1100 524 537 0.0000 0.0000 1 1
25 1.2312 1.9982 1226 1053 467 492 0.0000 0.0000 60 71
50 2.4935 3.5065 1162 1013 420 456 0.0000 0.0000 123 143
75 2.1455 2.8979 1107 979 381 426 0.0000 0.0000 189 219
100 0.0257 0.0225 1062 949 351 400 0.0000 0.0000 259 297
125 -4.0216 -5.2650 1023 922 325 377 0.0000 0.0000 331 377
150 -10.1445 -13.1070 990 898 305 358 0.0000 0.0000 405 459

 

 
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7 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

If it's MY wagon train,  I'm breaking out the 81mm mortar. :P Lobbing in rounds from the inside if the circle. :lol: Or if you're going to go that far, you might as well call in the helicopter gunships.:lol:

Since an Arclight would be well inside danger close, I'd rather have a Spectre than the helicopter gunships.

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1 minute ago, Chantry said:

Since an Arclight would be well inside danger close, I'd rather have a Spectre than the helicopter gunships.

I don't know... a couple USMC Cobras with the 3 barrel cannon would do a lot as close air support. Maybe a couple Hueys with GAU 2B Miniguns in the doors...

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5 minutes ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

I don't know... a couple USMC Cobras with the 3 barrel cannon would do a lot as close air support. Maybe a couple Hueys with GAU 2B Miniguns in the doors...

Depending on the model I'd prefer a couple of 20mm Vulcan's, a 40mm Bofors and a 105mm howitzer and maybe some guided missiles.

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1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

A A .357 Magnum, Cor-Bon Jacketed Hollow Point, 140gr

B B .45 Colt (.45 Long Colt), Cor-Bon JHP + P, 200gr

Range Drop
(inches)
Velocity Energy Wind drift
(inches)
Time
(milliseconds)
A B A B A B A B A B
0 -1.4775 -1.4707 1299 1100 524 537 0.0000 0.0000 1 1
25 1.2312 1.9982 1226 1053 467 492 0.0000 0.0000 60 71
50 2.4935 3.5065 1162 1013 420 456 0.0000 0.0000 123 143
75 2.1455 2.8979 1107 979 381 426 0.0000 0.0000 189 219
100 0.0257 0.0225 1062 949 351 400 0.0000 0.0000 259 297
125 -4.0216 -5.2650 1023 922 325 377 0.0000 0.0000 331 377
150 -10.1445 -13.1070 990 898 305 358 0.0000 0.0000 405 459

 

 

 

Thanks SD, where did you find this table? Is the a table online that you can enter different calibres and projie weights in?

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.38-40  ( 38WCF ) was around in the day and would keep on shooting a long after the rest were too fouled to shoot .....

Then a hammered Double in 10 or 12 Ga....  Then a double bit axe when the ammo all ran out ...

You did say 6,000 savages right ?

Lets make Smoke !

 

Jabez Cowboy

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18 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

A A .357 Magnum, Cor-Bon Jacketed Hollow Point, 140gr

B B .45 Colt (.45 Long Colt), Cor-Bon JHP + P, 200gr

Range Drop
(inches)
Velocity Energy Wind drift
(inches)
Time
(milliseconds)
A B A B A B A B A B
0 -1.4775 -1.4707 1299 1100 524 537 0.0000 0.0000 1 1
25 1.2312 1.9982 1226 1053 467 492 0.0000 0.0000 60 71
50 2.4935 3.5065 1162 1013 420 456 0.0000 0.0000 123 143
75 2.1455 2.8979 1107 979 381 426 0.0000 0.0000 189 219
100 0.0257 0.0225 1062 949 351 400 0.0000 0.0000 259 297
125 -4.0216 -5.2650 1023 922 325 377 0.0000 0.0000 331 377
150 -10.1445 -13.1070 990 898 305 358 0.0000 0.0000 405 459

 

 

Since we're allowing fancy ammo, I'll take a long barreled win94AE in .357 magnum. Using the lee gc 200 grain rifle mold, crimping on the groove and judiciously applying 360DW load data, I should get a muzzle velocity in the ball park of 1800 fps with a cartridge that will load and cycle for the following ballistics table.  apologies for bullet drop numbers for use with scope,

 

Screenshot_20210830-111243_Strelok.jpg

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14 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

Why for has no one mentioned a 45-70 Gatlin Gun? 

OP was restricted to levergun in choice of two period incorrect chamberings.

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Handgun calibers are about equal in stopping power.  Depending on the rifle design, 45 Colt can be modest in power as originally loaded or beyond 44 Magnum power off the Ruger Only page, so if we were talking about shooting a large animal, the 45 would be the clear winner if the action was strong enough for that kind of load.  I'm not sure I'd want to use that kind of load as a man stopper though....excessive recoil and blast isn't going to help the follow up shooting.

 

I'd pick the .357 Magnum in this instance. 

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C'mon, there is no
"recoil and blast" with 45 Colt.

  The Army switched from 38's back 45, and so would I. There is no need for a long distance shot as most any gun would have longer reach then the indians arrows.

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56 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

C'mon, there is no
"recoil and blast" with 45 Colt.

  The Army switched from 38's back 45, and so would I. There is no need for a long distance shot as most any gun would have longer reach then the indians arrows.

 

Not with low pressure 14k psi loads.  The 300s @ 1200+ fps out of my 4.2" Ruger Redhawk will put hair on your chest.

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Why would you want a short barrelled gun to take west to fight Indians with? And in any case, pretty sure Colts would blow up with your loads, so not do-able. FWIW, I run full compressed loads of ffg in my 44-40's, and they are my 5' tall 19 year old daughter's favorite loads for SASS matches. No recoil and blast to speak of, compared to modern smokeless loads.

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3 hours ago, Chacón said:

 

Not with low pressure 14k psi loads.  The 300s @ 1200+ fps out of my 4.2" Ruger Redhawk will put hair on your chest.

That's why I save the 300's for shooting out of the Winchester '94 Trapper.  ;)

 

According to my chronograph, they are doing over 1400fps through the 16 inch barrel. 

 

That puts them on par with the 300gr carbine load (.45-55-300 loaded in a .45-70 case with a filler to take up the space from the reduced powder charge) the Army developed in the mid 1870's.

 

Trapdoors are single shot, my '94 trapper holds 9 of them in the tube.

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Based on my personal experience .45 hands down. I've had 3 .45's (2 '73's and a '94) all of which run like sewing machines. Had a Marlin and a Rossi in .357 and could never get either to feed for crap.

JHC

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Let'm get in close, then I'd use what I carried for social purposes:

Sterling01.jpg

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I want my 44 mag marlin that I shoot for cowboy with my original cowboy loads, 8.5 grains of Win 231 with a 200 grain bullet. I had a friend loan me some 44 mags for a match on time and he put 11 grains of Unique behind my 200 grain bullets ( those kidda hurt). I now use 5 grains on trail boss in my 44 mags and I also shoot 44 spls in my Marlin and in my 73. 

 

I know 44-40 in a 73 would have been available, Would a 44 Russian ( made in 1870) version been available at that time? (44 spl were not made until 1907)

 

if i can't get to my lever gun, I want my 45-70 orginal trapdoor that I shoot long range with open sights. It existed at that time due to it's age and it was carry back from the Spanish/ American war. ( think Rough Riders) i got it from a guy that his great grandfather brought it home and he was selling everything he had due to financial problems. i had an FFL at the time and he had been a good customer so I took the rifle in trade for selling the rest of his stuff on consignment and giving him 100% on the sale..

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