It's just silly

[Snakebite]

I laugh every time that I read about folks in this game talking about shotgun patterns. All the silly waste of money that is spent putting chokes in to a shotgun that has been cut down to 20" or so, yata, yata. It's just BS! The targets in this game are fixed 99.9% of the time, and are so close that worrying about the pattern out at bird hunting range is just a joke. About the only thing that can actually do any good, and even that is marginal, is to load a spreader wad that opens up quicker than a standard wad. If not for barrel leading, just not using a cup would open up the shot a little faster. Put a sheet of cardboard at the normal Shotgun target distance, and see for yourself just how little things change at that range.

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.chuckhawks.com/where_spread2.jpg

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Snakebite,

tell us how you REALLY feel.

 

p.s. - I agree

 

..........Widder   

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

4 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Snakebite,

tell us how you REALLY feel.

 

p.s. - I agree

 

..........Widder   

 

As do I 

OLG 

[Turkey Flats Jack]

So spending $60 to have chokes installed on my 87 was a waste of money? I run bp with brass hulls. Without the choke I'd have to reload at least 1 every stage because the pattern opened up so big it wouldn't knock down heavier targets. I'm still not winning any money but I'm having more fun than not knocking them down. 

[Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L]

9 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

As do I 

OLG 

20 years ago I was putting chokes in 5 or 6 guns a week and it paid very well.  Now I do about two a year and they are hunting guns.  I guess most shooters finally realized that there was no benefit to it  for cowboy action shooting. J.M.

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

Do they not knock them down because the pattern spread is too wide, or is it because you use card wads instead of a cup wad, or is it just because you put too much powder compared to shot and you have a donut hole in your pattern? If you want to convince anyone the choke helps you might want to show some before and after patterns shot on a target of piece of cardboard. I use a 26" barrelled sxs while my daughter uses an 18", no chokes, using the same ammo and both knock over any knockdown we encounter. But not until I shot a paper target and saw where it actually hit, and adjusted the powder/shot ratio.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

I agree with Snakebite.  When I saw that post about patterning I had quite a chuckle.  We are shooting at ten yards or less.  Point blank range.  If you paint a large plate and shoot it the "pattern" at ten yards out of the crappiest of shotguns is only a few inches.  On a lot of old shotguns the bore kinda wanders through the barrel.  I.e., it is not straight.  This is a photo of my favorite original 87.  When I cut the barrel the bore was way off center and funneled a bit like a blunderbuss.  It has no problems taking down any target at CAS distances.

[Sedalia Dave]

The only patterning I have done on CAS guns is to ensure that my SXSs Point of Aim and Point of Impact are close enough together that it will take down the target. I have herd of a few really cheap SXSs where one barrel was so mis-aligned that POA and POI were noticeably different at 10 yards.

 

It also pays to pattern when using fiber wads as too much powder for a given weight of shot will cause the pattern to resemble a donut. 

[Warden Callaway]

 

I don't have choke tubes in any of my shotguns except a Mossberg 500. 

 

The only argument I could accept is that you are using the shotgun for other uses. 

[Sedalia Dave]

2 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

 

I don't have choke tubes in any of my shotguns except a Mossberg 500. 

 

The only argument I could accept is that you are using the shotgun for other uses. 

 

The pattern on the right is rather thin in the center. Were you using fiber wads?

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

Many many years ago, I built targets and tested what effect shooting them with bullets and shotguns had on them.

 

I wrote this little article for cas shooters that were having problems knocking down targets.

If you shoot center of target and your pattern shoots center of target, you are not getting enough shot on the knockdown to take it down.

Yes it is a hit but most of the shot is not on the target

 

http://www.cliffhangershideout.com/SteelStable/shotpatterns.htm

 

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

Going by the pic and what is written on the bag, he is.

[Warden Callaway]

28 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

The pattern on the right is rather thin in the center. Were you using fiber wads?

 

Yes,  I'm sure the post I made explaining this picture was archived.  But the distance was likely 15 steps.  The point is,  best to shoot a few shots at cardboard to see how they pattern and point of aim. 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

5 hours ago, Turkey Flats Jack said:

So spending $60 to have chokes installed on my 87 was a waste of money? I run bp with brass hulls. Without the choke I'd have to reload at least 1 every stage because the pattern opened up so big it wouldn't knock down heavier targets. I'm still not winning any money but I'm having more fun than not knocking them down. 

No reflection on your own shooting, but a person does have to hit the targets solidly.  I see a real lot of clean SG misses (usually shooting too high) under a timer, simply because folks push too fast for their pointing and recovery capability.  Hitting the target squarely puts a LOT more shot mass and energy in the drop zone than adding a choke could ever accomplish at our shooting distances.   

 

Heres an exercise that folks  can do.  Testing under the timer is probably not a good plan.  Try taking virtually any shotgun, regardless of (within legal) barrel length, choke or lack thereof, and take a number of slow, carefully aimed shots at KD targets, with a framed paper target as a background.  Every properly placed round will drop a standard, (reasonably adjusted) CAS KD target at ranges under 12 yds, every time.   Where the plate fails to go down, don't assume it's the gun, but look at the paper to see where you really aimed.  We often tend to assume too much when it comes to the lowly SG.   You've really got to aim quite tightly.

[Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L]

4 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

I agree with Snakebite.  When I saw that post about patterning I had quite a chuckle.  We are shooting at ten yards or less.  Point blank range.  If you paint a large plate and shoot it the "pattern" at ten yards out of the crappiest of shotguns is only a few inches.  On a lot of old shotguns the bore kinda wanders through the barrel.  I.e., it is not straight.  This is a photo of my favorite original 87.  When I cut the barrel the bore was way off center and funneled a bit like a blunderbuss.  It has no problems taking down any target at CAS distances.

This was common in early model Winchester shotguns.

J.M.

[Turkey Flats Jack]

Yall can laugh and disagree with what I said all ya like. I know what was happening. Using brass hauls with fiber wads I had to try a lot of different loads to get a decent pattern at 12 yards. To much powder would blow a hole in the pattern. Yes I could adjust my aim and take targets down but under the clock that didn't always happen. I really wished I had taken photos of the patterns to show you just how bad it was. After playing with my loads I got an 18" solid pattern with 40grains of 2f and 1⅛ oz of shot using fiber wads. That would work on most targets but not some of the heavier ones at one club I shoot at. Installed a screw in full choke and I get a 10" pattern at 12 yards that takes down the heaviest of knock downs with that same load. In case you're wondering that's in an IAC 87 with a 20" barrel. 

[Turkey Flats Jack]

5 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

I agree with Snakebite.  When I saw that post about patterning I had quite a chuckle.  We are shooting at ten yards or less.  Point blank range.  If you paint a large plate and shoot it the "pattern" at ten yards out of the crappiest of shotguns is only a few inches.  On a lot of old shotguns the bore kinda wanders through the barrel.  I.e., it is not straight.  This is a photo of my favorite original 87.  When I cut the barrel the bore was way off center and funneled a bit like a blunderbuss.  It has no problems taking down any target at CAS distances.

 

I would agree that any shotgun wouldn't have an issue knocking down targets using plastic hulls and wads with a shotcup that close. That's not even far enough for the shot to really exit the wad. If that's what I was loading I wouldn't have wanted or needed a choke to tighten up the pattern on mine. 

[Caladisi kid]

AAAHHHH......ballistics.........

[Dusty Devil Dale]

1 hour ago, Turkey Flats Jack said:

 

I would agree that any shotgun wouldn't have an issue knocking down targets using plastic hulls and wads with a shotcup that close. That's not even far enough for the shot to really exit the wad. If that's what I was loading I wouldn't have wanted or needed a choke to tighten up the pattern on mine. 

Your point about plastic cup wads increasing pattern density is undoubtedly true, but I do see a number of 20ga shooters knocking down the plates with 3/4 as much shot as most of us shoot. 

 

If I were troubleshooting, I would start with (1) point of aim, then (2) look at load balance/pattern/performance,  then (3) probably experiment with different shot size, then (4) consider adding choke.  I would expect the least return from the latter two options at CAS shooting distances.   

 

  

[John Boy]

Snakebite, my belief why many Cowboy shooters believe that chokes on shotguns aid knocking down more plates for them is because they basically don’t know how to ‘point’ a shotgun, single or double barrel quickly at a target.  Any shotgun made with either full or modified barrels will plaster the steel target with any legal shot size if the barrel had a front & rear sight and they could aim with the sights lined up instead of having to quickly point the gun

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

But of course most of our SG's are Cyl choked...

[Tracker Jack Daniels,58780]

Had a place many years ago that MD thought the shotgun targets needed two shots each to knock them down.  I put a turkey full in my 97 and never had to shoot one more than once.  He had the gall to complain that I was hard on his targets, told him to set them correctly and I would go back to cylinder chokes and 3/4 oz. loads again.  That club finally got tired of losing shooters and ran him off.  Attendance is still way off but targets are easy to hit and put down.

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 minute ago, Tracker Jack Daniels,58780 said:

Had a place many years ago that MD thought the shotgun targets needed two shots each to knock them down.  I put a turkey full in my 97 and never had to shoot one more than once.  He had the gall to complain that I was hard on his targets, told him to set them correctly and I would go back to cylinder chokes and 3/4 oz. loads again.  That club finally got tired of losing shooters and ran him off.  Attendance is still way off but targets are easy to hit and put down.

 

That MD should be publicly shamed.

 

Phantom

[Tracker Jack Daniels,58780]

 

2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

That MD should be publicly shamed.

 

Phantom

I know what you are saying Phantom, however he is long gone from this sport and the club is working very hard to be shooter friendly and undo all the harm and bad feelings he caused.

 

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

 

More powder and shot, that will git er done! Sure won't speed up your stage times any, though.

[Kid Rich]

13 hours ago, Turkey Flats Jack said:

 

I would agree that any shotgun wouldn't have an issue knocking down targets using plastic hulls and wads with a shotcup that close. That's not even far enough for the shot to really exit the wad. If that's what I was loading I wouldn't have wanted or needed a choke to tighten up the pattern on mine. 

Using plastic shot cups with BP I used to vary my  pattern from 7" to 23" inches at 7 yds by changing ratio of powder to shot. It just takes a little time and loading effort. I used to use the wider pattern for fliers. No holes in the pattern. I did note that some combos would give me odd shaped patterns.

kR

The shot "exits" the cup almost right away after exit from the sg bbl.

[Cholla]

A huge problem I see frequently is that the shooter doesn't plant their check on the stock and look down the barrels. I am guessing they don't like the recoil jarring their head. One person I was spotting for went through all of their shotgun shells and still didn't knock down the targets. Every time they would shoulder the shotgun and pull the trigger without planting their cheek. All of their shots went high.

[Dusty Devil Dale]

Most SG failures to drop our CAS targets are the result of MISSES and weak hits; not SG pattern or load deficiencies. 

 

When folks pick up a shotgun, they seem to have this subconscious image of a yard-wide pattern and a feeling that aiming isn't needed at our distances.  But in reality, at that range, shotguns really shoot more like a rifle, but with a fist-size projectile.   So resist the urge to only "point" the SG.  Aim/shoot it just like you would shoot a rifle, using its rib and sights.   A bit slower? maybe.   But insignificant, compared to SG loading/transition times.  And real insignificant compared to reload time after a miss.  Think how fast can you aim and accurately shoot your rifle string. 

 

 

 

[Griff]

Let's see, I started shooting BP in this game in late 1986... loaded once fired WW AA hulls then, and still do today.  I use the same MEC 600Jr., Winchester 12R (or equivalent) wads, #9 shot, and however much Goex 2F fills a #41-43 bushing.  I've used as small as a #38 bushing... but seem to have misplaced it sometime in the past 35 years.    I have to make up about an average of ½-shotgun target for a 6 stage match... and when I do, it's not due to any choke or lack of choke in whichever of 5 side-x-side shotguns I'm using!  It's simply because the shotgun is the only gun during a course of fire that DON'T stop to talk or even slow down with... I either pull the trigger too soon or too late during my swing from one KD to the next!

 

I have read numerous times that I should be patterning my shotshell loads... and yet... I've neglected to ever put forth that effort.  I've always said that when I start REGULARLY missing SG KDs thru inexplicible causes, I would do so...   The few occasions I've missed a SG target, it has ALWAYS been that I rushed the shot!  If I see KDs that are set a little farther than normal, or observe folks having problems knocking them over... I will grab one of the 26" barreled SGs and aim a little more diligently.

 

But, yes, if you're insistent on using brass hulls, 65 grains of 2F and fiber wads, you best "pattern" your loads... or live with the consequences.