Charlie Harley, #14153 Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 Not wanting to hijack the other thread, my heart is going out to all the veterans who served in Afghanistan. It has to be a gut punch watching the maps and images from their former battleground. And do not make this political. The war started clumsily under Republicans, ended the same way under Democrats, and both had about an equal number of years in the middle. There’s more than sufficient blame to go around. Update 8/17/21. I asked that this thread be closed so don’t blame the moderators. It’s devolved into bickering and blaming instead of showing a little sympathy towards those who served. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Riot Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 It’s my opinion we should have never been there and this pullout is many years too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixgun Sheridan Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 Maybe we need to do like the Chinese do. Invade, kick some butt, then quickly leave while claiming victory before anyone has a chance to kick them back out of the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twelve mile REB Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 Walk Softy and carry a big stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Bob #61228 Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 In the past 20 years, I figure we killed most everybody in Afghanistan who was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. It's time to get out. The current generation of Afghan youth has never know life under the Taliban. We educated a whole generation of Afghan women and exposed the whole population to Western culture, music, freedom of choice including being able to vote for their leaders. I don't think the Taliban can put that genie back in the bottle. Even though the Afghan army folded up like a cheap lawn chair, the lasting effects of our 20 years of occupation has yet to be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Falcon, SASS # 46139 Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 I agree with Sixgun Sheridan: get in, kick ass, leave and don't take any lawyers in with you. If you want a nation built, call the peace corps or the Boy Scouts. Our job is to kill people and blow up things. All else is rubbish. PF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 3 hours ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said: In the past 20 years, I figure we killed most everybody in Afghanistan who was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. It's time to get out. The current generation of Afghan youth has never know life under the Taliban. We educated a whole generation of Afghan women and exposed the whole population to Western culture, music, freedom of choice including being able to vote for their leaders. I don't think the Taliban can put that genie back in the bottle. Even though the Afghan army folded up like a cheap lawn chair, the lasting effects of our 20 years of occupation has yet to be seen. The sad news there is that any Afghan woman who is educated and exposed to western ways has been evacuated, killed or is now being led around on a leash like a dog. They won’t be able to vote for their leaders and if they voice their opinion they will be stoned or beheaded. Women have absolutely no rights there. Afghanistan is right back where they started 20 years ago. There is not one success that we can refer to when we talk about our 20 year occupation, not one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 Our initial entry into Afganistan was an absolute success!! Had we continued with that strategy, we MIGHT have changed the the outcome. When the politicians and the vanity driven generals decided to get involved, the whole operation went in the crapper!! When the population is comfortable living in the stone age, bombing them back to the stone age isn’t a threat!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said: Our initial entry into Afganistan was an absolute success!! Had we continued with that strategy, we MIGHT have changed the the outcome. When the politicians and the vanity driven generals decided to get involved, the whole operation went in the crapper!! When the population is comfortable living in the stone age, bombing them back to the stone age isn’t a threat!! That was not a success by any stretch of the imagination. Taliban fled to Pakistan and crawled in their holes and toyed with the greatest military power on earth knowing that this day would come. Like one retired army general told me back then “unless you kill every taliban man, woman and child they’ll be back one day, nothing will change”. He sure was right and now they are very well armed and any in country resistance is futile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amigo Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 The majority of us over there back in 2009-2010 felt strongly that the Afghan Army would just crumble when we left...that was 11 years ago. Nothing happened to change that assessment over the years among others that went and came back. I don't feel like writing a long piece here, but will say the place and the people and their circumstances are not what folks in the Western world would expect or easily understand. Lots of costs involved by our country, both fiscal and human. There is going to be a lot of human tragedy that will continue over there, too. I will say, I think we could have done a better planned and executed exit...but it was never going to end like one might hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Riot Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 This country has been manipulated in regards to Afghanistan. President Bush was in the process of turning that country around and away from the only cash crop they can grow and export - Opium Poppies. Then President Obama turned that all around and “Wallah”! We have a heroin problem in his country. Then Trump comes along and heroin and opiate issues jump even more. Who got paid? Who really controls the opium? The Taliban grew in power while heroin exports grew and grew and our country had feet on the ground. Makes one wonder. If a big chunk of your population is stoned and / or stupid who’s watching the crooks in Washington? EDIT: Forgot to add that opium funded the Taliban. Can’t have an evil bad guy to get tax money to fight if your bad guy isn’t big and bad. Kinda hard to manipulate the public if your bad guy is weak, right? Yeah, I am a cynic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 42 minutes ago, Yul Lose said: That was not a success by any stretch of the imagination. Taliban fled to Pakistan and crawled in their holes and toyed with the greatest military power on earth knowing that this day would come. Like one retired army general told me back then “unless you kill every taliban man, woman and child they’ll be back one day, nothing will change”. He sure was right and now they are very well armed and any in country resistance is futile. Believe what you will. The original incursion into Afghanistan involved a few military warriors with hand held ordnance and communication equipment. It took less than a month to subdue the Taliban! Working with the local Afghan resistance, they killed far more Taliban than escaped. Each of those first soldiers returned home alive!! It was a template for long term success that was almost immediately dismissed by those who run the military. Had the military stayed out and kept the Afghanies supplied and provided with the air support that turned the tide in the first place, the locals would likely have maintained the upper hand and they would have killed even more Taliban until there wasn’t a Taliban. The uniformed Afghan military was bypassed almost entirely! Those who did the bulk of the actual fighting were people who were fighting to keep their own land and protect their own families! That is the way to change the political landscape!! Instead, the generals and those who make their living off of the military were allowed to abandon the original plan. We DUMPED men by the thousands and munitions and money in by the billions, took on the appearance of “another foreign occupation force” and lost the respect and support of the people! That’s the way to lose the war and the respect of the rest of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 5 hours ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said: In the past 20 years, I figure we killed most everybody in Afghanistan who was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. It's time to get out. The current generation of Afghan youth has never know life under the Taliban. We educated a whole generation of Afghan women and exposed the whole population to Western culture, music, freedom of choice including being able to vote for their leaders. I don't think the Taliban can put that genie back in the bottle. Even though the Afghan army folded up like a cheap lawn chair, the lasting effects of our 20 years of occupation has yet to be seen. Excellent post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 Just my 2 cents worth. After 9/11/2001, we identified the ones who attacked us. Went in kicked the Taliban out of the way, assaulted and degraded Al-Qaeda, eventually killing their leader, Osama bin-Laden. Our military has kept us safe from other major attacks on U.S. soil. That in my book was our biggest success. We got off track when we thought we could build Afghanistan into a Western democracy. Next, in comes the Chinese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 15 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said: Believe what you will. The original incursion into Afghanistan involved a few military warriors with hand held ordnance and communication equipment. It took less than a month to subdue the Taliban! Working with the local Afghan resistance, they killed far more Taliban than escaped. Each of those first soldiers returned home alive!! It was a template for long term success that was almost immediately dismissed by those who run the military. Had the military stayed out and kept the Afghanies supplied and provided with the air support that turned the tide in the first place, the locals would likely have maintained the upper hand and they would have killed even more Taliban until there wasn’t a Taliban. The uniformed Afghan military was bypassed almost entirely! Those who did the bulk of the actual fighting were people who were fighting to keep their own land and protect their own families! That is the way to change the political landscape!! Instead, the generals and those who make their living off of the military were allowed to abandon the original plan. We DUMPED men by the thousands and munitions and money in by the billions, took on the appearance of “another foreign occupation force” and lost the respect and support of the people! That’s the way to lose the war and the respect of the rest of the world. They didn’t subdue the taliban. The taliban ran and hid and there was no determination to root them out. Sure we killed a bunch of them but hundreds of thousands more were waiting and thousands more that are taking over the country now we’re being born, indoctrinated and trained. The afghan military and police were never going to defend against the taliban unless the taliban was totally eliminated and the US public and politicians don’t have the stomach for that type of thing, not then and not now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 11 minutes ago, Yul Lose said: They didn’t subdue the taliban. The taliban ran and hid and there was no determination to root them out. Sure we killed a bunch of them but hundreds of thousands more were waiting and thousands more that are taking over the country now we’re being born, indoctrinated and trained. The afghan military and police were never going to defend against the taliban unless the taliban was totally eliminated and the US public and politicians don’t have the stomach for that type of thing, not then and not now. AS I SAID!! If we had stayed with the original plan!!! Instead, the politicians and the vanity or profit driven military hierarchy decided… OH! Never mind!!! My point is valid and I don’t need to defend or explain it further!! PLEASE!! Read and consider my entire post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 1 minute ago, Blackwater 53393 said: AS I SAID!! If we had stayed with the original plan!!! Instead, the politicians and the vanity or profit driven military hierarchy decided… OH! Never mind!!! My point is valid and I don’t need to defend or explain it further!! Same here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 20 minutes ago, Yul Lose said: They didn’t subdue the taliban. The taliban ran and hid and there was no determination to root them out. Sure we killed a bunch of them but hundreds of thousands more were waiting and thousands more that are taking over the country now we’re being born, indoctrinated and trained. The afghan military and police were never going to defend against the taliban unless the taliban was totally eliminated and the US public and politicians don’t have the stomach for that type of thing, not then and not now. Even if we'd killed every last one of them, there would be another group, taking the name, with the same ideology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 10 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said: Even if we'd killed every last one of them, there would be another group, taking the name, with the same ideology. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 This is one part of our withdrawal that seems backwards to me. 1. Withdraw all US military forces. 2. Next, withdraw all US civilian personnel, allied friendlies, and Afghans who helped us. Shouldn't it have been the other way around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 1 minute ago, Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 said: This is one part of our withdrawal that seems backwards to me. 1. Withdraw all US military forces. 2. Next, withdraw all US civilian personnel, allied friendlies, and Afghans who helped us. Shouldn't it have been the other way around? BINGO!!! And THIS is the responsibility and failure of our current leadership!! BLATANT STUPIDITY at its very WORST!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 10 minutes ago, Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 said: This is one part of our withdrawal that seems backwards to me. 1. Withdraw all US military forces. 2. Next, withdraw all US civilian personnel, allied friendlies, and Afghans who helped us. Shouldn't it have been the other way around? Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joke 'um Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 Tiawan's going down next. Joesama bin-Biden won't lift a finger. Biden voters should be real happy. No more "mean" tweets. (Idiots!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 said: This is one part of our withdrawal that seems backwards to me. 1. Withdraw all US military forces. 2. Next, withdraw all US civilian personnel, allied friendlies, and Afghans who helped us. Shouldn't it have been the other way around? I believe that was a component of the former administration's original plan. My comment on the other thread: Quote All in all, getting OUT of the place was important. I watched the President deliver his address this afternoon, and I thought it was about the best presentation he's ever done. However - it was pretty clear that he was reading directly from a teleprompter; I seriously doubt he had much to do its preparation. It was "well spun." Regarding Trump's plan: When it was first announced, I recall thinking that a May 01 deadline was mighty ambitious. But I also seem to recall discussion at the time about how it would be done in orderly stages, with constant evaluation and adjustments to the plan and schedule as required. AND effective measures were to be taken to protect those with ties to U. S. interests. Evidently, someone misplaced the blueprint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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