Deja Vu All Over Again

[Blackwater 53393]

Perhaps if we had done this in an orderly fashion, getting our civilians out first, offering the native allies a chance to relocate under our protection, and removing all ordnance not directly assigned to their military as we withdrew troops, we would have done this right!

 

As it is, the current administration chose to act like a little kid, throwing a handful of pebbles into the air and trying to run out from under them!!

 

American civilians first!

 

Those Afghan citizens who aided our efforts and wished to relocate next.

 

Finally, a staged, orderly withdrawal, taking our equipment and the support system for our own military with us!

[Yul Lose]

14 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

Perhaps if we had done this in an orderly fashion, getting our civilians out first, offering the native allies a chance to relocate under our protection, and removing all ordnance not directly assigned to their military as we withdrew troops, we would have done this right!

 

As it is, the current administration chose to act like a little kid, throwing a handful of pebbles into the air and trying to run out from under them!!

 

American civilians first!

 

Those Afghan citizens who aided our efforts and wished to relocate next.

 

Finally, a staged, orderly withdrawal, taking our equipment and the support system for our own military with us!

Woulda, coulda, shoulda. I doubt this administration gave anything you mentioned above any consideration at all.

[El CupAJoe]

Biden was a buffoon for thinking this would go any other way,  I blame Bush for the sucky vision for why we needed to stay there.  I think Obama and Trump both understand that some presence there was a good idea.  Keeping a very small number of boots on the ground wasn't actually costing us much.  People going into office kept making promises to pull us out and I think for a lot of voters they'd hear the promise and think that sounds nice... as nice as it sounds, I don't think this was actually so high a priority that it couldn't have been addressed by recasting the vision as a forward operations base on the underside of China and Russia. Afghanistan could have continued carrying it's water with us to back them up and Russia and China could have been kept on notice... just my $.02...

Really sad what's going on now.

[El CupAJoe]

1 hour ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

Perhaps if we had done this in an orderly fashion, getting our civilians out first, offering the native allies a chance to relocate under our protection, and removing all ordnance not directly assigned to their military as we withdrew troops, we would have done this right!

 

As it is, the current administration chose to act like a little kid, throwing a handful of pebbles into the air and trying to run out from under them!!

 

American civilians first!

 

Those Afghan citizens who aided our efforts and wished to relocate next.

 

Finally, a staged, orderly withdrawal, taking our equipment and the support system for our own military with us!

Let's not forget trying and executing war criminals, and removing other POW's 

[Sixgun Sheridan]

18 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

I agree with the decision to withdraw.
The way it was done however was foolish, incompetent, and disgraceful. Against advice from top military leaders and the intel community we pulled out in a rush, with little preparation for what would be the obvious aftermath.

 

What shocked us all was the fact that we were leaving the Afghans with a fully-trained and equipped military, and assumed they would at least be able to hold out for awhile before the Taliban eventually defeated them. But for 99% of them to have simply given up without a fight or ripping off their uniforms and melting into the crowds was abominable. THEY are the cowards who betrayed the Afghan people. That and their government fleeing the country instead of staying and negotiating terms with the Taliban. As spineless and corrupt as the south Vietnamese government had been this was far worse.

 

But then again we've seen this before... when we toppled Saddam the vast majority of his army simply dropped their guns, tore off their uniforms and disappeared into the crowds as well. Apparently the only dedicated fighters in that entire region are the hardcore Islamists.

[John Kloehr]

12 minutes ago, Sixgun Sheridan said:

 

... But for 99% of them to have simply given up without a fight or ripping off their uniforms and melting into the crowds was abominable. THEY are the cowards who betrayed the Afghan people...

I wonder how many simply (re)joined the Taliban. With vehicles and arms.

[Sixgun Sheridan]

2 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

I wonder how many simply (re)joined the Taliban. With vehicles and arms.

 

I have a Muslim co-worker who says a significant number of them did.

[Chantry]

I'm seeing bits of information on non MSM sites that hint at the cause of the poor performance of the Afghan Army. In no particular order:

Rank & file were not getting paid

The US & NATO were not viewed as the "Good Guys".  As someone wrote. The US & Nato were the Turks and the Taliban were Lawrence

There was no consistency in training.  Every time a new foreign advisor came in, the training got changed and the Afghan troops had to start all over

We failed to recognize and allow for tribal differences, so instead of using the historic British approach of putting disparate troops in their own companies or battalions based on religion, caste or tribal  similarities.

 

We tried to use conventional methods and troops to fight an unconventional conflict.

 

It will probably be a couple of years before we get a definitive book on the mistakes the US made in Afghanistan, but I'm pretty sure it will resemble the mistakes we made in Vietnam and the beginning of WWII.  

 

I think we sent the wrong people to fight the war the wrong way, just like we almost always do.  I also think cultural differences and issues had a negative effect on the ability of American troops to interact with the Afghans and probably rubbed the average Afghan soldier the wrong way.

 

Here is a link to an article I found very interesting: https://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/letter-editor-critical-afghanistan-assessment

 

[Capt. R. Hugh Kidnme]

20 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

I agree with the decision to withdraw.
The way it was done however was foolish, incompetent, and disgraceful. Against advice from top military leaders and the intel community we pulled out in a rush, with little preparation for what would be the obvious aftermath.

Agreed. And, after JoeB said in a presser, that  it would be totally different than our Vietnam withdrawal. To me, it looks exactly like Saigon 2, The Sequel.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Based on everything I have seen and read no one explected the Afghan army to hold out for more than a few months.  I don't blame any soldier from throwing in the towel when the option is fight a few more months for a losing cause and have your head cut off with a butcher knife or pledge alligance to the Taliban.

[Sixgun Sheridan]

1 hour ago, Chantry said:

The US & NATO were not viewed as the "Good Guys".  As someone wrote. The US & Nato were the Turks and the Taliban were Lawrence

 

The various tribes and people of Afghanistan rarely agree with one another. One of the few things they DO agree on is that they don't like foreigners in their land. I can't say I blame them though. If I'd seen Chinese troops and vehicles driving around my hometown for 20 years and constantly banging on my door to check for contraband I'd be sick of them and want them gone as well.

[The Aggie Rifleman, SASS#55213]

14 hours ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said:

NO ONE HAS SUCCEEDED IN STABILIZING THAT PART OF THE WORLD 4000 YEARS!

 

We should never have tried in the first place.  Boycott and barricade the whole area and go on about our legitimate business.

 

Well to be fair, Genghis Khan and Tamerlane did pretty well at stabilizing the place...they just used different and better tactics and were fond of making pyramids using skulls as bricks.

[Sixgun Sheridan]

29 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Based on everything I have seen and read no one expected the Afghan army to hold out for more than a few months.  I don't blame any soldier from throwing in the towel when the option is fight a few more months for a losing cause and have your head cut off with a butcher knife or pledge alligance to the Taliban.

 

What's so amazing is that they had at least a 3-to-1 numerical advantage, modern American weapons (including tanks and helicopters) and intelligence support from the USA, and yet they folded in days to a rag-tag bunch of goons holding worn-out AKs and driving around in Toyota pickups. This will definitely be an interesting study in the art of warfare for the future. On paper the Taliban shouldn't have had a chance, but as we all know thanks to that other war we were in there's no substitute for the will to fight.

[Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663]

1 hour ago, Sixgun Sheridan said:

 

What's so amazing is that they had at least a 3-to-1 numerical advantage, modern American weapons (including tanks and helicopters) and intelligence support from the USA, and yet they folded in days to a rag-tag bunch of goons holding worn-out AKs and driving around in Toyota pickups. This will definitely be an interesting study in the art of warfare for the future. On paper the Taliban shouldn't have had a chance, but as we all know thanks to that other war we were in there's no substitute for the will to fight.

“In war, the moral is to the physical as three to one.”

- Napoleon

 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

1 hour ago, Sixgun Sheridan said:

 

What's so amazing is that they had at least a 3-to-1 numerical advantage, modern American weapons (including tanks and helicopters) and intelligence support from the USA, and yet they folded in days to a rag-tag bunch of goons holding worn-out AKs and driving around in Toyota pickups. This will definitely be an interesting study in the art of warfare for the future. On paper the Taliban shouldn't have had a chance, but as we all know thanks to that other war we were in there's no substitute for the will to fight.

 

Sort of like the North Vietnamese?

[Waxahachie Kid #17017 L]

I think we all agree that we were going to leave, and should leave, at some point in time. 

The problem became how this was done. It was not done right, and the advice on how to do it, was ignored by those in power.

Only a few weeks ago, the present administration flatly, and clearly, stated that a repeat of Saigon would never happen. Uh...excuse me...bulletin...it did!!! 

It did not have to happen this way, and consequently there is a lot of criticism, from all directions, including our allies.

The vice-president is refusing to appear on any media, stating: "you're not pinning this s#^* on me!"

I got news...yes, a lot of us are....you, and bumbling-biden. 

 

 

 

[largo casey #19191]

As of now I believe they are evacuating the Afgans first & then the Americans.

                                                                                                                                           Largo

[Steel-eye Steve SASS #40674]

5 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

 

Sort of like the North Vietnamese?

Actually not, the NVA final push on Saigon Included a lot of armor units.

[Sixgun Sheridan]

14 hours ago, Steel-eye Steve SASS #40674 said:

Actually not, the NVA final push on Saigon Included a lot of armor units.

 

Yup, and Congress had refused to allow any more military aid to the the south Vietnamese which meant they ran out of ammunition and fuel at the worst possible moment.

[Waxahachie Kid #17017 L]

The Vice President is going on an overseas journey (great timing)...and guess where she is going?

Ho Chi Minn City, or as most of us vietnam vets know it...Saigon.

Ironic isn't it??? Her administration is being criticized, from all sides, in a comparison of Kabul, and Saigon, and she is making a trip to Saigon. 

If one wrote a novel like this, no one would buy it, it is too unbelievable.

  

[Trailrider #896]

And what is/will happen to all that equipment?  Too bad we didn't have hidden explosives in each vehicle with encoders that could be actuated from aircraft overflying them.  

Some are calling for the I-in-C to resign or be removed from office.  If that happened, guess who would be "in charge"? And if she were impeached, guess who would be at the top! 

"We will stay there until all Americans have been withdrawn."  Yeah, sure!  Better crank up the rest of the 82nd AB, and maybe a brigade of USMC!  Personally, I'd tell the Taliban, if they don't let everbody access to the airport without violence, the B-52's, B-2's and anything else that flies carry ordnance will be circling overhead until they do!