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1873 or 1866 and best caliber for Blackpowder?


Caladisi kid

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I may be opening up a pandoras box here but I am exploring the black arts of cowboy shooting.  When using real black powder,  would the model 1866 or 1873 be best for cleaning?  What caliber would be best?  I currently use 45 colt cartridges but have heard 44-40 would seal the chamber better and reduce the amount of fouling and easier cleaning. I have seen some of Jed-I's videos. Comments, thoughts, advice?  Thanks!

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You should hold both the 66 and 73.

Shoulder them as if you are going to shoot them.

There is a difference in the stock drop. (about 1")

Also you need to try the straight stock vs the pistol grip stock.

I can not shoot the pistol grip stock.

I can not get my fingers to follow the curve so it is straight stocks for me.

 

44-40 takes a little attention to detail to reload but once you get it, it reloads like all other calibers.

44-40 has the least blow back so it makes cleaning much easier.

 

 

 

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If you already have a '73 or '66 in 45 Colt then it would probably beb easier to get a 44-40 in the same configuration.  The internals on both are the same, so go with whatever works best for you.  Gringo was shooting 44-40s in BP when we shot together in NJ and his guns were always clean.

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The '73 has side plates that are outside the frame, the '66 has them slide into slots, ala the 1860, both are just a little more "fiddly" than the '73.  Either the .38-40 or .44-40 will perform well, brass is available from Starline.  However, the .38/.357 is still a popular option and doesn't have as much blow-by as the .45 Colt.  As said before, the .44-40 isn't really as hard to reload as some make it out to be.  I reload mine on my Dillon, just need a little more care with the adjustment for the powder drop die.

 

As said before, you really need to decide on how either fits you, and whether you like the pistol grip or straight stock.  

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I like the 73 for the lever safety and the side plaes are easier to pop on/off. I switched to 44wcf from 45 colt because it's easier to keep clean with bp. As mentioned the receiver stays clean. You can get close to that with 45 colt but it makes reloading a lot more labor intensive. 

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9 minutes ago, Burn Through said:

 because a 66  brass is hard to keep clean , 

 

Some of us actually like the patina of 66' after 1000s of rounds of real BP :D

 

I do agree about going with a 73' though, mainly because of the lever safety; out of battery discharges suck...

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73 in 44-40.   Why not take advantage of the improvements that Winchester made in 1870s?   Cleans faster, does not slice up finger tips the first time you take it apart.  Trigger block safety to prevent SOME out of battery discharges.

 

good luck, GJ

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Found something I was looking for.

An article by Engineer Bill written in 2005 on using 44-40 brass to make 45 caliber rounds to shoot real BP in his guns.

 

Here is the link to the article.

http://www.cliffhangershideout.com/gazette/2005/may05.html

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Odd guy Out here.  I prefer Brass Rifles.  While the internal moving parts are exactly the same as a '73, the '66 just feels different.  Simple way to avoid Blow-Back is to shoot either 44-40 or 38-40.  I just personally don't like the bottleneck cartridges.  Straight wall cartridges have Blow-By.  The Blow-By can be eliminated in the straight wall cartridges by Annealing the cases.  Out of the box straight wall cases WILL NOT expand enough to seal the chamber.  Annealed straight wall cases will and will shoot just as clean as the dash calibers.  Cliff Hanger mentioned the "other" solution to Blow-By in 45 Cases, which I have been harping on for years.  Start with 44-40 cases.  Run 'em carefully thru 45 Colt dies and load.  With a middle load of BP or APP the case will firearm to the chamber and WILL expand to seal the chamber.  Presto, clean running 45s.

 

Defining "best" is subjective.  Per Phantom, define exactly which "Best" you are looking for.  For myself, it's a Brass rifle in .45 so I can play with a bunch of different Suppositories.  Fun Stuff dontchaknow.

 

Oh, and I forgot.  My "BEST" Rifle is a custom built Henry Transitional.  In 45 Naturally.

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Like coffin I have run black in my 66 and 73 both in 45 colt for years, get some blowback but never an issue,  good strong crimp don't download. Only spritz every 3-4 stages. Use them in local,  state,  national and worlds with never a hiccup. Sure 44-40 and 38-40 probably run cleaner but I only tear down 2-3 times a year and have never had excessive fouling.

Rafe 

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WOW!!!  Some fantastic responses.  Thanks to all who have responded.  In regards to "best" I am directing the inquiry to find out which type of firearm design is easier to keep running longer between cleanings and also maybe safer.  I did not realized the 73 is a better choice because of the "out of battery discharge" occurrence.  I have experienced blowback using 45 colt loads when shooting Trail Boss and since we all use low pressure I have tried annealing the mouth of the cases to "soften" them to seal the chamber with success.  Thanks and keep the advice coming!  

CK  :)

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Caladisi, you are starting down the road of my same question. For the BP shooters having blow by with 45 Colt, are you annealing brass? I know for some calibers, like 45-70 Starline recommends annealing to get a good seal for the lower BP pressures. I assume this would help 45 Colt as well, the question remains, is it enough.

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11 hours ago, Caladisi kid said:

 In regards to "best" I am directing the inquiry to find out which type of firearm design is easier to keep running longer between cleanings and also maybe safer.

I was referring to your original question: "What caliber would be best?"

 

Best for what? Sealing BP blowback...performance...expense...?

 

Phantom

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32WCF.  Same advantages as 38WCF and 44WCF.  Full compressed load needs no filler.  Most economical black powder cartridge to load.  Runs smooth.  

 

I shot this Marlin 1894 SRC 32WCF made in 1900 in last two matches. Maybe my Winchester 1892 in next match.

 

597bddacbc3f8_Marlin189432WCFJuly2017.jpg.1cc52b168aef5998590bdb7c97a064c2.jpg

 

5ab5516e58286_Winchester189232WCF2March2018.jpg.beeaea4882427e94a5d028d479553089.jpg

 

 

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44-40 and a '73 worked the best for me when I was shooting real BP.  No need to anneal anything.  Used Winchester brass for BP (and starline for smokeless); the Winchester brass sealed better (slightly thinner) and I always knew what powder I was shooting by the case head stamps. The ability to easily take off the side plate on the '73 vs '66 is a big advantage also.

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Well to continue the “Best” question I will have to say that I play this game with 3 goals in mind; 1. Have Fun. :)2.  Try to be true to an era I represent. :ph34r:3.  Be efficient and try to win.  :D  All 3 will be compromised in playing this game. To win, create less smoke , minimum attire, light gear and loads, LOTS of practice and expense, yes a gamer.  To have Fun, Cowboy up and get involved, meet people in EVERY aspect of the game.  To be true to an era I do not wear 150 year old clothing and gear but I try to represent an era as best as I can.  We all chose a different trail to satisfy us for various reasons.  

All the input is great, thanks again. :)
 

 

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I shot .44 w.c.f., until I tried the .38 w.c.f.. It is an even more pronounced bottle-neck cartridge, than the .44 w.c.f.. For me, it is the perfect black-powder cartridge, and it edged out the .44 w.c.f. to second place.  

I have a model 1866, in .44 special, that seems to need cleaning more often, than the .38 w.c.f.. Perhaps, being a straight-walled case, the .44 special lets the black-powder residue come/blow back, more than the bottle-neck cartridge. The theory is that the bottle-neck cartridge seals the breech better. There is an ongoing debate about that. I am not saying it is true, or not, just saying, with my two rifles, I need to clean the .44 special more, and also more often.

So...my personal list would be, in order:

1. .38 w.c.f.

2 .44 w.c.f.

3 .32 w.c.f. 

 

My opinion, and one yankee dollar, will buy you a soft drink...in some of the more rural places, in these parts...that is. 

 

W.K.   

 

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4 hours ago, Caladisi kid said:

Well to continue the “Best” question I will have to say that I play this game with 3 goals in mind; 1. Have Fun. :)2.  Try to be true to an era I represent. :ph34r:3.  Be efficient and try to win.  :D  All 3 will be compromised in playing this game. To win, create less smoke , minimum attire, light gear and loads, LOTS of practice and expense, yes a gamer.  To have Fun, Cowboy up and get involved, meet people in EVERY aspect of the game.  To be true to an era I do not wear 150 year old clothing and gear but I try to represent an era as best as I can.  We all chose a different trail to satisfy us for various reasons.  

All the input is great, thanks again. :)
 

 

As one of my youthful heroes used to say:

 

If I can't compete, I won't have fun. If I don't have fun, I won't compete.

 

So...

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Regarding caliber, the bottle neck cartridges, 38-40 & 44-40 will result in less blowback and reduced fouling of the action. That being said, a properly annealed 45 colt will shoot “almost” as clean as a 44-40(in my experience). Now, that said, I have moved to 44-40 for rifle shooting real black, and I anneal all of my 44-40 before each loading. Aside from this offering better case obturation it also relieves work hardening of the brass and extends case life. For pistols I still shoot 45 colt loaded with 45 cowboy special in a set of 71 open top. This brass is annealed as well to help seal the chamber and reduce blowback fouling into the action. I’ve also found that skipping fillers and running a slightly compressed charge of BP seams to lead to a more complete and (relatively speaking) cleaner burn. I would also suggest use of Big Lube bullets and a good BP intended lube.

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5 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I must be weird...cuz "blowback" just doesn't bother me all that much...actually, not at all.

 

Phantom

 

Finally! Something we agree on! :P:lol::lol:

 

 

 

Actually we agree on a lot of things...

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Howdy Pard,

I have been a BP shooter for a good 10 + years.  I have a Uberti 73 Texas Brush Popper with the pistol grip stock chambered in 44.40.   IMHO it is a great way to go.  I can shoot a 12 stage match without cleaning and maybe a little oiling during the match.  Same with my real Colts in 44.40.  My previous guns were in 45 LC and had to clean after about 4 stages.  I hope this helps.

 

Ricochet Roy

MORE SMOKE AND MORE BOOM!!!

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1 hour ago, Ricochet Roy, SASS #71853 said:

Howdy Pard,

I have been a BP shooter for a good 10 + years.  I have a Uberti 73 Texas Brush Popper with the pistol grip stock chambered in 44.40.   IMHO it is a great way to go.  I can shoot a 12 stage match without cleaning and maybe a little oiling during the match.  Same with my real Colts in 44.40.  My previous guns were in 45 LC and had to clean after about 4 stages.  I hope this helps.

 

Ricochet Roy

MORE SMOKE AND MORE BOOM!!!

I can easily shoot 12 stages (did it last weekend), without cleaning...38 Spl.

 

;)

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22 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I can easily shoot 12 stages (did it last weekend), without cleaning...38 Spl.

 

;)

45 Colt has a lot more blowback than a 38 because of the thicker case.  I have to spray Moosemilk every 2nd or 3rd stage or so to keep the lifter free.  When I anneal, I can run a whole match without lubing.  35grs of FFG Shuetzen under a 200 gr Big Lube.

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I am new here  and i only have one pistol i shoot blackpowder. Colt saa made in 1890. I will say i love shooting it over any other gun. That being said,   I would like to compete with BP but so i need to huy guns mare for BP or can i use 73 for BP specific and my uberti 45 colt for bp as well?    Im sure im gonna get blasted for this but like i said im new 

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10 minutes ago, Wileymontana said:

I am new here  and i only have one pistol i shoot blackpowder. Colt saa made in 1890. I will say i love shooting it over any other gun. That being said,   I would like to compete with BP but so i need to huy guns mare for BP or can i use 73 for BP specific and my uberti 45 colt for bp as well?    Im sure im gonna get blasted for this but like i said im new 

You don't need BP specific guns, what you have will work fine using the right loading technique and components.  45 Colt will generate more blowback so you will be lubing more often if you don't anneal your cases.  Some handguns need a bit more cylinder clearance for BP but most run fine.  Us Big Lube bullets for the extra lube in the barrels.  Don't use dino oil, use Ballistol or Break Free for lube.

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27 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

You don't need BP specific guns, what you have will work fine using the right loading technique and components.  45 Colt will generate more blowback so you will be lubing more often if you don't anneal your cases.  Some handguns need a bit more cylinder clearance for BP but most run fine.  Us Big Lube bullets for the extra lube in the barrels.  Don't use dino oil, use Ballistol or Break Free for lube.

   Should be the same loads  and bullets I am using in my 1st gen saa.   I really enjoy. Shooting black powder.   I hope to meet someone locally that competes using BP so i can learn from them .   I live close to a great supplier of BP stuff. (Buffaloarms).   Thats where i get my big lube bullets and balistol.   But i am happy to hear i can shoot BP in my uberti

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12 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Since you're in Northern Idaho, look for @Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life

I believe he lives near Sandpoint.  He'll get you going right with the big bores.

 I sent him a message he is actually very close to me.  I am in the bonners ferry area

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I have had three original 1873s and one original 1892 in .38 WCF.  All good combinations.

I shoot bo in an original 1873 .32 WCF. Better combo for me.

I do not have a .44 WCF since mixing brass (.44 Mag and .45 Colt) is a concern.

I am done with brass frames (1860 or 1866) in anything larger than .32 WCF due to concerns about stretching the frames.

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I am shooting a 66 in 44wcf and when I get another 44wcf it will be a 73. They are just easier to take apart to clean the innards. Not that it takes that much longer than a 73...one you get the hang of it. When I bought my 66 I could have gotten a 73 but the 66 was a nicer looking gun to my eye. I can shoot an entire match and not have to do anything at all to it. I can say the same for my pistols. I have .44 spcls with 44wcf cylinders they will run an entire match without having to spray them at all. If I run them as 44 spcl with 44Russians they just run.

 

Sgt H

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