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Issues with Trail Boss and CCI small pistol primers


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21 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Spend more time on your press and you will learn the 'feel' of when the primer is fully seated in the case.

I say that as one who has loaded on a Dillon 550 since 1987. Started reloading in 1967....

BTW, all Dillons  and just about every other maker, primer seats on the down stroke of the ram.

OLG 

 

 

The commercial Dillon presses seat a primer when you pull the lever.  They differ from the 550/650/750 presses in this way.

 

I agree that the loader should develop the feel for how the primers go in the brass, but I've also found that different brass has slightly different primer pocket dimensions and feel, and no matter what, inspecting the loaded cartridges is the only sure way to avoid high primers with these presses, especially when you're loading 500+ rounds per hour.

 

  

13 minutes ago, Diamond Curly SASS#57086 said:

Thank you for all the replies. Loaded some more rounds this morning and out to the range and see how this batch works. Seated the primers to bottom this time for sure. DC

 

Based on the symptom, the new rounds should do the job.

Edited by Chacón
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2 minutes ago, Chacón said:

I agree that the loader should develop the feel for how the primers go in the brass, but I've also found that different brass has slightly different primer pocket dimensions and feel, and no matter what, inspecting the loaded cartridges is the only sure way to avoid high primers with these presses, especially when you're loading 500+ rounds per hour.

IF, you have all the up/down play removed from the shell plate. You should feel the plate drag with a high primer.

One of the most common reasons for high primers on progressive presses, is shell plate play.

OLG 

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6 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

IF, you have all the up/down play removed from the shell plate. You should feel the plate drag with a high primer.

One of the most common reasons for high primers on progressive presses, is shell plate play.

OLG 

 

You won't be able to get the plate quite that tight on a 650.  It will bind when it indexes if you do.  Obviously you take as much of the play out as you can and tighten the set screw, but as far as it being that tight, it will end up dragging.  It only takes a few thousandths of an inch for a primer to be high enough to cause a misfire. 

 

You may not agree, but I'm inspecting every one of my rounds, especially for a big match where it matters.  Inspecting your loaded ammunition is part of the reloading process. That includes checking for high primers by look and feel, every time.

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5 minutes ago, Chacón said:

 

You won't be able to get the plate quite that tight on a 650.  It will bind when it indexes if you do.  Obviously you take as much of the play out as you can and tighten the set screw, but as far as it being that tight, it will end up dragging.  It only takes a few thousandths of an inch for a primer to be high enough to cause a misfire. 

 

You may not agree, but I'm inspecting every one of my rounds, especially for a big match where it matters.  Inspecting your loaded ammunition is part of the reloading process. That includes checking for high primers by look and feel, every time.

Put a itty-bit of lube on the bottom of the shell plate to aid in cycling. 

Silicon spray is handy here.

OLG 

 

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1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Put a itty-bit of lube on the bottom of the shell plate to aid in cycling. 

Silicon spray is handy here.

OLG 

 

The ammunition needs to be inspected.  Every time.  No exceptions.  Silicone spray or not.

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6 hours ago, Cliff Hanger #3720LR said:

Case lube should not contaminate primers. Lube stuck in the flash hole can interfere with ignition.

----------------------

From factories.

Question "Are bullet primers waterproof?"

 

"Primers have a sealing layer giving a long self life - guaranteed up to 30 years. Can withstand full immersion in water for a period of more than 1 months."

 

I agree with you.  It should not.  However, I was loading the same primers, same powder and same cases.  The only difference was the case lube.  When I switched back to One Shot, the problem went away.  My point was, don't automatically assume it was bad primers.

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On 7/27/2021 at 7:39 AM, Chief Rick said:

I also just tried to reload some C45S with Winchester and Remington primers.  I don't know exactly how old these primers are, but several years.  They have been stored in an airconditioned location since my purchase.

 

In a stock SAA clone I could not get reliable ignition with either brand of primer.  Some would go off with the first strike, some took two strikes, some took three and some never would go bang.

 

I fortunately have a few Fed large pistol magnum primers so I loaded them up and they all went boom first strike.

The gun and springs are important context to include. My JM Marlin 45 Cowboy doesn't like Winchester primers, but it has a spring kit and one-piece firing pin. It seems like if one wants to shoot an off brand of primer, the original springs might have to be restored.

Edited by Roscoe Regulator
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13 minutes ago, Roscoe Regulator said:

The gun and springs are important context to include. My JM Marlin 45 Cowboy doesn't like Winchester primers, but it has a spring kit and one-piece firing pin. It seems like if one wants to shoot an off brand of primer, the original springs might have to be restored.

In my post, which you quoted, I stated I was shooting with a stock gun.

 

What is an off-brand primer?  I stated I used Winchester, Remington and Federal.

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1 hour ago, Roscoe Regulator said:

The gun and springs are important context to include. My JM Marlin 45 Cowboy doesn't like Winchester primers, but it has a spring kit and one-piece firing pin. It seems like if one wants to shoot an off brand of primer, the original springs might have to be restored.

Put a #10 AN washer at the base of the hammer spring.

OLG 

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Waited until tonight wishing for cooler weather but had to shoot at 100 temp tonight. Loaded 40 rounds with CCI and 40 rounds with Winchester. Shot both in rifle and revolver with NO FTF. It looks like I was weak before and did not seat the primers deep enough to have ignition. Thank everyone for their advise and will try not to mess up again in the future. Sure is more fun when they all go bang. DC

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11 minutes ago, Diamond Curly SASS#57086 said:

Waited until tonight wishing for cooler weather but had to shoot at 100 temp tonight. Loaded 40 rounds with CCI and 40 rounds with Winchester. Shot both in rifle and revolver with NO FTF. It looks like I was weak before and did not seat the primers deep enough to have ignition. Thank everyone for their advise and will try not to mess up again in the future. Sure is more fun when they all go bang. DC

 

Thanks for sharing. We all get the advantage.

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Now might be the time to (one time) clean primer pockets in your fired brass.   I rarely do so, only if I FEEL a rough seating pull or find a high primer sticking out of the pocket.  But with your wide spread failure to seat problem, you may have a lot of residue in the pockets.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Now might be the time to (one time) clean primer pockets in your fired brass.   I rarely do so, only if I FEEL a rough seating pull or find a high primer sticking out of the pocket.  But with your wide spread failure to seat problem, you may have a lot of residue in the pockets.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

Thanks, DC

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18 hours ago, Chief Rick said:

In my post, which you quoted, I stated I was shooting with a stock gun.

 

What is an off-brand primer?  I stated I used Winchester, Remington and Federal.

Some "stock SAA clones" have special springs from the factory (like my Uberti El PatronBelezza).

"off brand" would clearly be "not Federal". There has been much discussion lately about considering or using alternative in lieu of Federal availability. Would you like me to delete my post that quoted you?

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1 hour ago, Roscoe Regulator said:

Some "stock SAA clones" have special springs from the factory (like my Uberti El PatronBelezza).

"off brand" would clearly be "not Federal". There has been much discussion lately about considering or using alternative in lieu of Federal availability. Would you like me to delete my post that quoted you?

No need to delete anything.

 

Just asking for clarification.

 

As posted earlier, no manufacturer should be releasing a firearm that can't reliably set off any primer.

 

I've never heard of Winchester, Remington or even CCI referred to as off brand. It's not like they're the "Great Value" of primers.

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12 minutes ago, Chief Rick said:

No need to delete anything.

 

Just asking for clarification.

 

As posted earlier, no manufacturer should be releasing a firearm that can't reliably set off any primer.

 

I've never heard of Winchester, Remington or even CCI referred to as off brand. It's not like they're the "Great Value" of primers.

I don't think those shooting unmodified guns are complaining much about primers not detonating. It is the big deal in CAS with so many guns modified to run fast and easy.

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38 minutes ago, Roscoe Regulator said:

I don't think those shooting unmodified guns are complaining much about primers not detonating. It is the big deal in CAS with so many guns modified to run fast and easy.

That's why the first thing I did when I had failure to fire was to get a stock pistol to verify. Even with a stock gun I was getting failure to fire. Irritating...

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18 minutes ago, Chief Rick said:

That's why the first thing I did when I had failure to fire was to get a stock pistol to verify. Even with a stock gun I was getting failure to fire. Irritating...

You posted earlier:
"Primers are/were seating fine.  Visual inspection conducted after loading to just below flush."
It occurred to me that "below flush" is not necessary and moves the primer farther from the firing pin.

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29 minutes ago, Roscoe Regulator said:

You posted earlier:
"Primers are/were seating fine.  Visual inspection conducted after loading to just below flush."
It occurred to me that "below flush" is not necessary and moves the primer farther from the firing pin.

 

If you scroll up, there's a direct quote from the primer manufacturer that states the spec is between .002" and .006" below flush (thus the negative sign on there).  It appears that not only do I disagree with your claim, the primer manufacturers advise the same thing--below flush is ideal.

 

That said, .002-.006" is not very much, so the distinction between "flush" and ".002" below flush" isn't much.

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11 minutes ago, Chacón said:

 

If you scroll up, there's a direct quote from the primer manufacturer that states the spec is between .002" and .006" below flush (thus the negative sign on there).  It appears that not only do I disagree with your claim, the primer manufacturers advise the same thing--below flush is ideal.

 

That said, .002-.006" is not very much, so the distinction between "flush" and ".002" below flush" isn't much.

It is only necessary that a primer not be "high". Among my Lee presses and Hornady LnL AP, I don't believe I have a press capable of seating "below flush". ICBW. The point is that "below flush" works against a strong primer hit.

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On 7/27/2021 at 2:20 PM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Spend more time on your press and you will learn the 'feel' of when the primer is fully seated in the case.

I say that as one who has loaded on a Dillon 550 since 1987. Started reloading in 1967....

BTW, all Dillons  and just about every other maker, primer seats on the down stroke of the ram.

OLG 

 

The Dillon 550 & 650 both seat the primer on the upstroke of the arm. Maybe the 750 as well. 1050 is on the downstroke.

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15 minutes ago, Max Payne said:

The Dillon 550 & 650 both seat the primer on the upstroke of the arm. Maybe the 750 as well. 1050 is on the downstroke.

Reread my post-l clearly stated 'ram', not the arm/handle. ;)

OLG 

 

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1 minute ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Reread my post-l clearly stated 'ram', not the arm/handle. ;)

OLG 

 

Oops! Sorry! These poor old 74 YO eyes......

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