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Lighter hammer spring = Slower hammer speed??


Mustang Gregg

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Since I am a 30 to 40 sec shooter, it doesn't mean very much to me.

But I know a Pard who also shoots metallic silhouette with his same Vaqueros.

He's concerned that is he installs the lighter Wolff Springs, his lock time will slow down and affect accuracy.

Any physics experts want to chime in?

Much obliged,

Mustang

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I'm not a physics expert, but:

 

Ummm... Yes.  Lighter hammer spring does equate to a slower lock time.  Differences between a 23 and a 22 pound spring aren't much.  Differences between a 19 and a 15 are substantial.

 

I've seen it in play.  I was teaching a class at a state match.  We were shooting some sweeps of 5 targets.  1 individual routinely missed a couple of shots, with the bullet going between targets.  This person had something like 14 or 15 pound spring in their guns.  They were really floppy.  I sent this person home (lived about 10 minutes from the range) to put heavier springs when.  When the shooter returned, about 30 minutes later, no targets were missed.  Springs were bumped up to 19 pound.  I seem to recall that following this, the shooter was either 1st or 2nd overall for a State level match, with the heavier springs.

 

Later, when reviewing video, it was obvious that the gun was moving before the bullet had left the barrel.  The shooter was outrunning the lock time (or insufficient follow-through for the springs). 

 

I haven't done a scientific examination as I just can't afford the needed measuring equipment.  But my anecdotal evidence bears this out.

 

Additionally, when I was shooting black powder silhouettes, there was a distinct preference for hi-wall type actions due to faster lock time.  Not Sharp's actions, they are very slow.

 

 

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I agree with DOC.

 

Slower lock time can mess up accuracy and even offset the performance of a shooter, 

ESPECIALLY if the shooters reactions are faster than the falling hammer.

 

..........Widder

 

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What I've noticed with revolvers is that flat springs are definitely the fastest acting spring for moving heavy parts such as a hammer (probably why FA uses them instead of coils).  What you can do is cheat the speed of  a lightened  flat spring by introducing a slight "lift" in the spring that rests under the hammer roll. I've been doing this for years and it seems to work well.  You get the lightness of the draw rate but the hammer gets the acceleration near the end of travel.

 

 For the coil mainspring, I have been introducing a partial dressing of the spring to make it a "progressive" spring rate. It starts light and fools the shooters idea of tension. Once moving, the tension gains yet the shooter doesn't "feel" it. The result is an excellent combination!!   Coils are great for low tension needs on parts moving short distances but compared to flats they suck at moving heavy parts fast!

 

Mike

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During a match a good friend came over and ask me to shoot his new slicked up colt.

I thought it was really nice until I tried shooting it.

The hammer spring had been lightened and during a string of five shots, I out ran the hammer fall and was catching it before it fired the round.

This happened 4 out of five times.

I had to slow down to let the hammer finish the fall.

I was shooting two handed.

 

If the gun was shot duelist, it would work perfectly for me.

But two handed, it would fail because I was catching the hammer during the fall before it completed.

 

Lock time is very important to the fast shooter.  

 

 

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It’s true that a lighter spring increases lock time.   Single action revolvers have a slow lock time already and lighter springs slow it down more.  From a physics sense, F=ma.  Since mass is fixed, lower force means lower acceleration.  Lower acceleration means longer time. Delta S=1/2at^2, where s is the change in position.  Where it gets a little tricky is spring rate and preload.  Both contribute to the force on the spring.   
 

one way to speed up lock time with lighter springs is to put on a lighter hammer.  

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I had to replace the mainspring in my Uberti '73 rifle because the slow hammer was routinely completing its fall after I began to open the lever, causing repeated minor OOBDs.  That was with the tension screw set at maximum.  The replacement leaf spring from Taylors performed better, but still seems slow.  I still get an occasional OOBDs, but much less often.   I'm looking at a SGB spring kit.  Undecided as yet.  It doesn't seem like deliberately slowing down is a strong option.  

(Yes, the lever safety is operational)

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This thread has me thinking.  I have been considering having the one piece firing pin system by Snake Oil George and Creek County Kid (it significantly reduces the amount of main spring poundage necessary in order to cock the rifle) installed in my 73. 

 

Have any of you who run this system had any problems with your hammer falling too slowly?

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Not apples to apples, but:

 

I have the Ruger NMVs that I started shooting with and were "slicked up" by a fellow cowboy.

 

Comparing those to a factory Colt SAA or Ruger Bisley Vaquero (new model) is eye opening.

 

Yes, the "slicked up" revolver is easier to cock but the time it takes for the hammer to fall is noticeably slower.

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When I shot IPSC matches, I paid solid $$ to have my 1911s balanced for trigger reset and hammer fall.  Some of my 1911s had relieved hammers; some were jeweled.  Matching these actions was as critical as matching POA/POI.

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Based on that video...Thank you kind sir!!   

 

Is the mechanical side of a piece of equipment, also impacted by the user's physical abilities?  :D And hence able to overcome certain preconceived notions?

 

I think so...

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On 7/25/2021 at 9:47 PM, Mustang Gregg said:

Since I am a 30 to 40 sec shooter, it doesn't mean very much to me.

But I know a Pard who also shoots metallic silhouette with his same Vaqueros.

He's concerned that is he installs the lighter Wolff Springs, his lock time will slow down and affect accuracy.

Any physics experts want to chime in?

Much obliged,

Mustang

I'm not a physics expert but I HAVE stayed at a Holiday Inn express so...

    Those springs (whether flat or coil) have to move weight and overcome friction. That being said, you can speed the hammer back up after installing the lighter springs by lowering the weight it has to move and lowering the friction it has to overcome. Picture it like this:

I'm pushing a 4,000 pound car with the breaks grinding. (I'm the spring and the car is the hammer). I'm gonna push it at a certain speed. 

Now, cut 1000 pounds off that car and adjust the brakes so they're not grinding. Have the significantly weaker but not as good looking Widder push the same car. He's gonna be able to push the car as fast or faster than me.

 

Well, he'd probably start it and drive off but you get what I'm saying.

 

 

 

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Yup.  F=MA

Assuming a constant mass, a greater force gives more acceleration.  Although with the short distances involved there are limits.

 

Making sure the friction on the hammer is minimized is very important.

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Has anyone tried boring holes in a hammer to reduce its mass?   With mass reduced, the hammer would need to fall faster to make up the force hitting the FP ----  but it should naturally fall faster.  I'm wondering if the holes would thus be a gain or loss in force.  

 

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9 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Has anyone tried boring holes in a hammer to reduce its mass?   With mass reduced, the hammer would need to fall faster to make up the force hitting the FP ----  but it should naturally fall faster.  I'm wondering if the holes would thus be a gain or loss in force.  

 

 

If used in Cowboy guns, there is a possibility that it could be an external mod.

 

It could possibly be cyphered similar to bullet speed x mass = ?

The problem would be knowing the correct speed of the hammer fall of its original weight vs. its lighter

weight.

 

..........Widder

 

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1 hour ago, Hendo said:

OK, I'm just gonna ask because it's late and I'm tired..

It's early in the morning ;) Hence, some outcome of my brain activity

 

1 hour ago, Hendo said:

Doesn't the hammer have to have a certain amount of mass to bang off the primer? 

 

  • The hammer needs a certain momentum to set off a primer which is defined as mass x velocity.  So, it needs at least "some" mass. >0.
  • Theoretical digression: If you had a spring that had such a strong force that it could set off the primer by itself you wouldn't need the hammer mass, that's what happens when a primer pops while reloading with a seating device.
  • But basically for the hammer momentum, you can compensate the lower mass with higher velocity and with a lighter hammer and the same spring, the velocity will be faster.
  • The loaded spring of a cocked hammer has a certain amount of potential energy. That energy transfers to the hammer to kinetic energy. If you had a frictionless system with a spring without any mass this energy would remain the same regardless of the hammer weight. But there's always friction and mass that set some limits. But I estimate that you can lighten the hammer to a certain amount without losing much energy/momentum.
  • AFAIK, there are already (auto) pistols with light polymer hammers, but I don't know if they have noticeably heavier springs.

 

Just some morning thoughts by

Equanimous Phil

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Hmmm. I think I may make a titanium hammer and see the results...  lighter, faster,  stronger.   

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15 minutes ago, evil dogooder said:

Hmmm. I think I may make a titanium hammer and see the results...  lighter, faster,  stronger.   

Don't think the Ti hammer will wear well in the full cock notch.

Cool idea to try! 

OLG 

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years ago, I broke the hand spring in one of my Uberti 1860's, so I followed Larsen P's instructions of doing the coil hand spring conversion.

 

I did notice that the hammers fell much better, smoother, and faster with the this new coil hand spring, with the lighter hammer springs I had installed way before the original hand spring broke.

 

So with all this, I understood that when lightening hammer springs, you also need to do something with the hand spring, as the lightened hammer spring may not provide enough energy to compress the hand spring during the hammer's course of travel.

 

If you already have the coil hand spring, you might need to play with replacement springs which would need to also be lighter, and have less mass for faster and easier compression in that spring channel.

 

It's the same thing with our rifles, put in a lighter hammer spring, you'll need to put in a lighter firing pin spring.  

 

 

 

 

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