Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Designated shooting order


Chief Rick
 Share

Recommended Posts

29 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Uh...I think he was referring to the argument of "not knowing a shooter" for supporting "Shooting in Order" as being bogus.

 

Phantom

Yes that's how I read his post too.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Matthew Duncan said:

 

"Bogus"?  I respectfully disagree.

 

I'll forget anyone's name within seconds of being introduced to them.  It will take numerous repetitions  and interactions with a new person for my memory to have a chance of remembering that person's name.   I'll remember your face and where we met but your name, slim chance.

 

The names of the regulars at monthly matches, took me a season.   Those that I have infrequent contact with, yea I know your face and give some time I might put a name with the face.  First timer Shooter I'd have to do a process of elimination with the non-regulars names to perhaps get your name right.  Being an introvert I'd will be embarrassed to asked you every-time you came up to shoot (IMHO leaves a non-friendly aura to the new Shooter).  I'd hate my trouble of remembering names to cause a score to be entered under the wrong name.  That's why I'd rather do other posses chores than be the Scorer. 

 

 

With all due respect, if you are too introverted or embarrassed to ask who's shooting every time, then maybe you shouldn't be one keeping score.  If you're not comfortable being a TO then spot and/or shag brass and you won't have to talk to anyone.

 

This isn't meant as a personal attack to you but options for anyone who may feel the way you answered.  Shooting in any kind of order is not going to help you remember, it just keeps you from having to admit it.

 

I was one of three TO's for my posse for two days at Hell on Wheels and the only person I knew was my wife.  At the end of the second day there were still people that I couldn't remember their alias.  If that leaves "a non-friendly aura" to a shooter - I can't help that.  I had zero complaints to my face and many thank you's during and after the match.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

as a general rule, I prefer to shoot early. But…..I shoot better if I count or TO a few stages to better fix the scenario in my prayers-brain. 
 

So at a monthly match I generally shoot early, then take over counting or TOing. At an annual, unless asked to TO I try to count first, then shoot. 
 

I prefer shoot when ready, but I’m not packing up because there is an order. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah I don't think I would like designated spots. We have a couple of people who like shooting first, but most would prefer not to, and we try and accommodate. However except for the two TO's we need to keep reasonably apart due to obvious reasons, the rest is the luck of the draw. After going through the order we ask if anyone needs to be moved due to a new shooter or sharing firearms. If not then the shooting order stands. If I went to a club where the club members shot first all the time and I was always at the end of the posse I probably wouldn't shoot there very much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am 71 and my ability to remember names let along an alias is very limited.  I keep away from doing the scoring for this reason.  I am perfectly happy to spot or pick brass I even do the timer sometimes.  I prefer to shoot in order, but I can do it either way.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Chief Rick said:

... then maybe you shouldn't be one keeping score.  ...

Believe you missed the last sentence of my post..."That's why I'd rather do other posses chores than be the Scorer. "

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LOL! Those of you that like to shoot when you want would do better if you determined an order to suit your needs and stuck with it, barring special requests, for example: "I've got to GO now." "I have to fix my gun first." "I'm just not on my game today and would like to shoot near the end now." 

 

I like to shoot third or fourth. Some people like to shoot first. Some people like to shoot last. Some don't care.  People sharing guns will always be separated the number of people that meets their needs. For example, if they are only sharing a SG, not as many people are needed to separate them as if they are sharing rifle and pistols.

 

When I read off the names of posse members, after finished with that, I ask when would you like to shoot.

 

If two people want to go first, they will come to an agreement, such as alternating or agreeing who is first and who is second.

 

I've gone first many times because no one wished to do it. Usually, it didn't "bite me in the butt." 

 

Like others have stated, it is a PIB to see everyone lined up to shoot. I remember an extreme example when the unloading table was in line with the loading table and there was no place to unload.

 

Whatever, I hate it when the PMs makes you shoot alphabetically. 

 

It is a "flexible order" that helps the scorekeeper until that person learns who is who and gets your favorite place reserved for you.

 

Flexibility is key!

 

Edited by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217
  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Matthew Duncan said:

Believe you missed the last sentence of my post..."That's why I'd rather do other posses chores than be the Scorer. "

No sir, I didn't miss that. That's why I said that my post want targeting you but others that might feel the same way 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like random order for shooting.  I’ve noticed at matches where the scorekeeper doesn’t know me they will write something on my shooters card like...rattlesnake hat band, black suspenders, gray and blue striped shirt.  Good scorekeepers don’t have a problem knowing who is who after the first stage. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I don't know where you get this from...I've run posses for many years at EOT and WR. Most of my posses are made up of folks that didn't know each other.

 

We learned their aliases quickly and we never had problems...ever!

 

So...where did you get all this knowledge about how shooting in order makes these situations run smoother? Or is it just a guess on your part?

 

Phantom

Great you learn names fast, not all do.

 

Rather than looking at what a fixed shooting order brings to a competition, I would rather add a reason why this sport does not need it and runs well without it.

 

We don't start at the stage, the firing line in this sport starts at the loading table. So it is easy and typical to have several several shooters all queued up and ready to go on the stage.

 

Compare this to sports where the stage is the line, firearms are loaded (and shown clear) on the stage before the next shooter can do anything.

 

With this sport's loading table, there is no real need  for "Larry is up, Curly is on deck, and Moe is in the hole!"

 

I like to watch a couple shooters (mainly to make sure I understand the stage), and then get in line for the table. If the line looks long, I chill until it shortens up. It is a more relaxed approach to keeping a posse moving.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

Great you learn names fast, not all do.

 

Rather than looking at what a fixed shooting order brings to a competition, I would rather add a reason why this sport does not need it and runs well without it.

 

We don't start at the stage, the firing line in this sport starts at the loading table. So it is easy and typical to have several several shooters all queued up and ready to go on the stage.

 

Compare this to sports where the stage is the line, firearms are loaded (and shown clear) on the stage before the next shooter can do anything.

 

With this sport's loading table, there is no real need  for "Larry is up, Curly is on deck, and Moe is in the hole!"

 

I like to watch a couple shooters (mainly to make sure I understand the stage), and then get in line for the table. If the line looks long, I chill until it shortens up. It is a more relaxed approach to keeping a posse moving.

Did you even read my post and note the BOLD and ITALICIZED section of YOUR post that I was responding too????

 

Here's the section I was commenting on just in case you missed it: If more than half the group does not know the other half, and that other half also does not know each other... Have fun keeping track of scores. Having a shooting order in this case makes the event run smoother.

 

Now, can you go back with this knowledge and respond to my original questions?

 

Looking forward to your response.

 

Phantom

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Did you even read my post and note the BOLD and ITALICIZED section of YOUR post that I was responding too????

 

Here's the section I was commenting on just in case you missed it: If more than half the group does not know the other half, and that other half also does not know each other... Have fun keeping track of scores. Having a shooting order in this case makes the event run smoother.

 

Now, can you go back with this knowledge and respond to my original questions?

 

Looking forward to your response.

 

Phantom

 

Hey, from my response, you now know Larry, Curly, and Moe are on your posse.

 

Also, from my response, you know other sports I participate in do not have the queueing the loading table provides in this sport; so those sports benefit more from having a shooting order, not just the smaller issue of score-keeping.

 

Balancing that, in this sport without a shooting order (which I have also said I do like), I do not know I have Larry, Curly, and Moe on my posse. Well, I can always say "Hi" and introduce myself.

 

So I think I did answer your question. But more than that, I think contributed to the thread as created by the OP. Generally, I try to keep my responses contributing to that. If you feel my answer did not address you with sufficient directness, now you know why.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

Hey, from my response, you now know Larry, Curly, and Moe are on your posse.

 

Also, from my response, you know other sports I participate in do not have the queueing the loading table provides in this sport; so those sports benefit more from having a shooting order, not just the smaller issue of score-keeping.

 

Balancing that, in this sport without a shooting order (which I have also said I do like), I do not know I have Larry, Curly, and Moe on my posse. Well, I can always say "Hi" and introduce myself.

 

So I think I did answer your question. But more than that, I think contributed to the thread as created by the OP. Generally, I try to keep my responses contributing to that. If you feel my answer did not address you with sufficient directness, now you know why.

You didn't answer anything about why you think that if half of the posse doesn't know the other half, that shooting in order makes the EVENT RUN SMOOTHER.

 

You said: "If more than half the group does not know the other half, and that other half also does not know each other... Have fun keeping track of scores. Having a shooting order in this case makes the event run smoother."

 

I asked: "Where did you get all this knowledge about how shooting in order makes these situations run smoother? Or is it just a guess on your part?"

 

Don't go giving some bizarre answer about Larry, Moe and Curly...or how other shooting sports do this or that. We are talking about CAS and the POSSE system.

 

So, do you think you can answer my simple question? It has been restated here in this post so that you don't have to go back in this thread to find it.

 

Phantom

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is the primary reason for shoot when ready.

We are COWBOYS... 

We are supposedly rugged individualists - we dont conform; we dont take orders.

 

I am the same guy off the range as I am on the range...

My mindset is I'm a Cowboy.

I speak my mind - I don't often back down - I actually believe in the concept of right and wrong.

And I will apologize if I have wronged someone.

I'm kind to children and old women and respectful to all others. 

And off the range; it's often a Springfield Armory I'm carrying instead of my Piettas

But I do things my way and make the best of it (and my hard headedness has cost me from time to time).

 

I am starting to realize that some of the others that we play with are just pretending.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I prefer to shoot when ready.  I usually like to shoot first for a couple of reasons. At one of the two main clubs I shoot at, one other guy also likes to shoot first and we ALWAYS end up on the same posse. I don't let it bother me at all.....................the @$$#0l$. :ph34r::P

Edited by Snakebite
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'm still waiting for a compelling reason for shooting in order to be explained.

 

Phantom

 

I'm still waiting for a compelling reason for shoot when you want to be explained.  :D

 

I know I'm in the minority, but I like a designated shooting order.  Just my preference.  Almost all the matches I've been to have a designated order chosen, pretty much, by the shooters themselves.  The one "Shoot when you want" match I recall shooting, it seemed like when I was ready to shoot and started walking up to the loading table 2 or 3 (or 4) other people would wander up in front of me.  By the end of the match I just waited until somebody would yell my name and tell me it was my turn to shoot and shot last.

 

With a designated order I know when Buckshot Bob heads up to the loading table I need to start looking for somebody to take over from me as spotter, or ULT, etc so I can grab my gear and work my way to the LT.

 

You asked for preference and that's mine.

 

Now, if you force me to "shoot when ready" or in alphabetical order, or first, or last I'll do it.  I won't just take my guns and go home.  It won't hurt my feelings any.  I came to shoot, not complain about shooting order.

 

Angus

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't really care. However, when there are only a few good TO's on the posse they need to be spread out in the group and shooting when ready works best. I'm good with shooting last on every stage. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

The one "Shoot when you want" match I recall shooting, it seemed like when I was ready to shoot and started walking up to the loading table 2 or 3 (or 4) other people would wander up in front of me. 

So...I'm wondering. When you say you're ready to shoot, you want...no one in front of you at the loading table? One person? Three people?

 

Compelling reason: Freedom to go to the loading table and shoot when you feel like it. Not being told by others what to do and when to do it...from a practical sense, posses generally work into a rhythm anyway and that rhythm is decided by each shooter. 

 

People think that with "Shoot in order" that posse duties are better taken care of. That's not true. I've seen folks bail quickly when they realize that the person that shoots in front of them is already at the loading table...or when that person is using the bathroom...and the loading table is empty.

 

I thought "Cowboys" were independent folks...perhaps I'm wrong.

 

Phantom

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

So...I'm wondering. When you say you're ready to shoot, you want...no one in front of you at the loading table? One person? Three people?

 

I just don't want to have to stand in line behind 2 or three people holding my guns while another 2 people occupy the Loading table.  It just seems silly. I'll just continue spotting, or whatever.  I guess I'd say if I'm standing holding my guns while 2 other folks are actually using the loading table I'm ok.  Standing behind someone else, who is also holding his guns, waiting seems excessive.  It's not that imperative to me to shoot RIGHT NOW to stand and wait carrying guns and ammo.  If I wanted to just stand around holding guns and gear I could do that at home.

 

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Compelling reason: Freedom to go to the loading table and shoot when you feel like it. Not being told by others what to do and when to do it...from a practical sense, posses generally work into a rhythm anyway and that rhythm is decided by each shooter. 

 

While that may be compelling for you, it's not for me.  I guess shooting in a regular order has never made me feel like I was being ordered about by anyone.  I'm guessing you haven't spent a lot of time in the military.  Or you spent all your time in the military telling other people what to do and when to do it.   :lol:

 

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

 

People think that with "Shoot in order" that posse duties are better taken care of. That's not true. I've seen folks bail quickly when they realize that the person that shoots in front of them is already at the loading table...or when that person is using the bathroom...and the loading table is empty.

 

I thought "Cowboys" were independent folks...perhaps I'm wrong.

 

I thought "Cowboys" were easy going folks.  Perhaps I'm the one that's wrong.  Although, I don't think independence and easy going are mutually exclusive.

 

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

 

Phantom

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm just going to leave the Military remarks alone...not really anyone's business.

 

So perhaps there are some misinterpretations here. I've shot a fair amount of "Shoot in Order" clubs. Every one of them shifted the shooting position after each stage. This is the type of system that I'm referring too...and the one that frankly, I can't stand.

 

I can see however shooting in an order that is defined by where you sign up at on the Sign-up Sheet. Definitely not a preference on my part over Shoot When Ready...but better than shifting positions every stage.

 

Phantom

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shooting in order …NO! I have gotten to where I don’t care when i shoot but I do like to shoot earlier rather than later. 
 

My larger issue is alphabetical score sheets. Doc B Doc C Doc followed by Texas Bill Texas Jones etc.  that’s asking for scoring to get messed up. Now I know folks have to sign score sheet etc but non alphabetical sheets are my preference. Tablet scoring? Doesn’t matter how it’s listed. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Assassin said:

I don't really care. However, when there are only a few good TO's on the posse they need to be spread out in the group and shooting when ready works best. I'm good with shooting last on every stage. 

GOOD posse leadership/teamwork shows itself pretty quickly. At EOT we had 4 TOs, who spaced out and everyone traded off jobs and shot in what sort of became a regular order. It was a larger posse with a lot of couples who couldn’t spot for each other … not everyone knew each other but as they came to the line the scorekeeper (spouse of shooter) confirmed alias. It’s NOT rocket science or middle school. 
 

Hugs 

 

Scarlett

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guess I'll add my two cents.

 

Who cares, either you're prepared to shoot when you arrive at a match or not. You should be ready to shoot first, in the middle, last or when you want to. 

 

It's up to who's running the match and I'll never say a disparaging word about the volunteers that work their butt off for the sake of our fun. If you don't like what they do, don't go back.

 

I'm especially sorry to say this: Get over yourself and just shoot. IMHO, we talk about the cowboy way but I'm beginning to think very few truly know what that means. I grew up in that world and it's time for the buttercups to buckle up. I would have been picking myself up off the ground when growing up for whining about such insignificant problem. The other term some might want to learn the meaning of is "Cowboy Up". It wasn't created by the "Cowboy Action" shooting sports. It meant "man up" long before this sport was created. I learned that term when I was about 9 years old when I was bucked off my first horse and Dad told me to get back on. Looked at Dad, then looked at the horse, got back on the horse.

 

For the betterment of the sport, discussions are good but being overbearing with no middle ground is not.

 

Please, just shoot and be thankful we still have the freedom to do so.

 

Sorry for the rant,

Long hunter

  • Like 9
  • Thanks 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'm still waiting for a compelling reason for shooting in order to be explained.

 

Phantom

It feels like someone is a control freak, even if that isn't their intent.  Many things are justified by "...it's for the greater good..."   Doesn't mean it really is.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/26/2021 at 7:29 AM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

And that order is decided by the shooters...when they like to shoot...etc-etc.

 

Amazing...

 

:P

Not always.  Sometimes certain shooters see  noone going to the loading table..and feel OBLIGATED to "get things moving".       Its all very well to say -as several have said here - "I like to go a bit down the order/I like to see a few others shoot it first to get it set in my head" ..so then what..if EVERYONE says that?   SOMEONE is going to feel pressured - by being a local, or being an RO, or whatever, to step up....again.   It may be just me...but when you have vastly experienced shooters who NEVER go first..well..I find that mildly irritating.   "Oh I'm not ready"... No?  But they expect someone ELSE to always be?   In IPSC we have a strict shooting order.. but... it rotates.  First shooter on Stage 1 is last on Stage 2 and so on...   I wouldn't mind seeing a version of that - modified to look after newbies and gun sharing...  but thats just me. ;)

 

 

Edited by Constable Nelson #11784
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only reason I like having a shooting order is the club that did it had the culture to help out, so no one was at the loading table unless they had been called. Because of that culture it was never an issue to find a spotter or TO when it was time to load up and shoot. Some of the places I have shot there will be two or three at the LT loading or ready to shoot, and then a another three to five waiting in line behind them.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We can poke fun at folks for having preferences...tell them to get over themselves...etc, etc.

 

However, there does need to be a "System"...we have the general system called a Posse. The methodology of running folks through each Stage is part of this system...right?

 

The question of what's an ideal system is a vey reasonable question. Discussing it shouldn't be looked at as a weakness...and certainly doesn't deserve to be attacked. Aggressive and lively debate is the only way to flesh out ideas. Hopefully folks have learned a bit about other's perspective on the topic.

 

Phantom

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Discussion is always good!

I will say this...

You sir, have never attacked me in any conversation (in fact, I don't ever read your responses as attacks)

Have I ever heard your 'eyes roll' or a 'face palm' ? Yup!!!:rolleyes:

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really don't care as long as the order gets advanced by a couple of shooters each stage.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Mustang Gregg said:

I really don't care as long as the order gets advanced by a couple of shooters each stage.

Which is the system that I think is the LEAST preferred by those that have made their opinions known.

 

This method pushes people into shooting positions that they may not feel comfortable with (ie: shooting first). For me, I don't like shooting last or next to last.

 

Why? Is it because I'm a snowflake that can't deal with certain things?

 

Nooooo. It's because I shoot BP and my post shooting routine (spraying Ballistol on guns and wiping them down), take a little bit of time and I don't like holding the posse up that are waiting on the next Stage.

 

Phantom

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

The one "Shoot when you want" match I recall shooting, it seemed like when I was ready to shoot and started walking up to the loading table 2 or 3 (or 4) other people would wander up in front of me.

 

 

Not to get off topic, but...

 

 

This situation is far more likely to happen on a posse of 19+ shooters.  Not often on a posse of 13-14.

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.