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Perfect posse size


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42 minutes ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

There was this time...when I thought THIS GUY was blowin' on my neck!!!

Till I saw his face, and realized it was a heavy "sigh"...:wub:

(I had reversed my pistol order...P )

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He listens with such kindness........................ yes it is a .P, NEXT SHOOTER.

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4 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I don't think ANYONE thinks that 10 is a perfect Posse size...

Again, it depends on other match conditions. 

Where I shoot, it can be 105 deg F. by 10:30 AM.  Getting out of the heat quickly means the difference between having a match and canceling.  Extreme cold is the opposite condition but the same discomfort situation in a lot of other locations/seasons. 

 

Given those kinds of conditions and 20 shooters in attendance, I would divide into two 10-person posses every time.  Standing around sweating or freezing, doing repetitive posse chores, and waiting for 19 other people to shoot, (and doing it 5 or 6 times in a day) isn't a fun day for anybody.

 

10 may not be perfect in Utopialand, but in the real world, there are times and conditions where smaller posses work much better.  It can be a hard MD call. 

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33 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Again, it depends on other match conditions. 

Where I shoot, it can be 105 deg F. by 10:30 AM.  Getting out of the heat quickly means the difference between having a match and canceling.  Extreme cold is the opposite condition but the same discomfort situation in a lot of other locations/seasons. 

 

Given those kinds of conditions and 20 shooters in attendance, I would divide into two 10-person posses every time.  Standing around sweating or freezing, doing repetitive posse chores, and waiting for 19 other people to shoot, (and doing it 5 or 6 times in a day) isn't a fun day for anybody.

 

10 may not be perfect in Utopialand, but in the real world, there are times and conditions where smaller posses work much better.  It can be a hard MD call. 

I’d rather shoot cold than in 100+ temps. I can put on a coat, but I’ll be shooting by myself if I start taking off enough clothes to be cool!!!!

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34 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Again, it depends on other match conditions. 

Where I shoot, it can be 105 deg F. by 10:30 AM.  Getting out of the heat quickly means the difference between having a match and canceling.  Extreme cold is the opposite condition but the same discomfort situation in a lot of other locations/seasons. 

 

Given those kinds of conditions and 20 shooters in attendance, I would divide into two 10-person posses every time.  Standing around sweating or freezing, doing repetitive posse chores, and waiting for 19 other people to shoot, (and doing it 5 or 6 times in a day) isn't a fun day for anybody.

 

10 may not be perfect in Utopialand, but in the real world, there are times and conditions where smaller posses work much better.  It can be a hard MD call. 

Yeah...well...I shot in Central Texas for 11 years so I know something about heat & humidity.

 

With 10 people, you're running around trying to get chores done and actually...maybe...shooting. The stress put on a 10 person posse far out weigh the slight added time required for an extra 3 or 4 shooters.

 

Phantom

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2 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I’d rather shoot cold than in 100+ temps. I can put on a coat, but I’ll be shooting by myself if I start taking off enough clothes to be cool!!!!

I've on shot a lot of 9-10 cowboy posses that become a PITA because there are always a couple who neglect posse chores and have to be hunted down to relieve the ones working.  And yes, I live in a hot area.  A couple more on a posse makes or breaks an enjoyable time.

Just now, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

I've on shot a lot of 9-10 cowboy posses that become a PITA because there are always a couple who neglect posse chores and have to be hunted down to relieve the ones working.  And yes, I live in a hot area.  A couple more on a posse makes or breaks an enjoyable time.

Didn't mean to quote you Hoss

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13 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yeah...well...I shot in Central Texas for 11 years so I know something about heat & humidity.

 

With 10 people, you're running around trying to get chores done and actually...maybe...shooting. The stress put on a 10 person posse far out weigh the slight added time required for an extra 3 or 4 shooters.

 

Phantom

I think most agree 10 is too few. I’d certainly rather 15 than 10. But not sure about 20 over 10 in hot summertime.   

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11 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

I've on shot a lot of 9-10 cowboy posses that become a PITA because there are always a couple who neglect posse chores and have to be hunted down to relieve the ones working.  And yes, I live in a hot area.  A couple more on a posse makes or breaks an enjoyable time.

Didn't mean to quote you Hoss

I tell posse when starting that we all need to do our share. If you are not working g for at least 1/2 of the shooters in your posse, then somebody is doing more work than they should have to. But you are correct, some are very adept at messing around with gear at their carts. I swear I saw one guy just move Bullets around f in a box once! 

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3 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I think most agree 10 is too few. I’d certainly rather 15 than 10. But not sure about 20 over 10 in hot summertime.   

20 gets tough for sure!

 

I'm with you, 13-15 and I'm good. Give me time to sit in the shade and drink...water...relax.

 

Phantom

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1 minute ago, Hoss said:

But you are correct, some are very adept at messing around with gear at their carts. I swear I saw one guy just move Bullets around f in a box once! 

Exactly!  Taking 5 minutes at the beginning of each stage to get everyone ready is a better plan but everyone has a routine that is hard to break.

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yeah...well...I shot in Central Texas for 11 years so I know something about heat & humidity.

 

With 10 people, you're running around trying to get chores done and actually...maybe...shooting. The stress put on a 10 person posse far out weigh the slight added time required for an extra 3 or 4 shooters.

 

Phantom

To each his/her own.  We do it our way, you can do it yours.  IMO, that is good.   Those differences are what keeps our game interesting and hopefully different each time we shoot a new club or location.  I hope we never lose that variety.  

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6 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

When I was a Match Director I had the check in crew split to two posses at 22 shooters and three posses at 35

Pretty much the norm, I suspect.  and quite workable.  

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21 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

To each his/her own.  We do it our way, you can do it yours.  IMO, that is good.   Those differences are what keeps our game interesting and hopefully different each time we shoot a new club or location.  I hope we never lose that variety.  

I'm willing to hear from ALLLLLL those folks that think 10 people on a posse is ideal...

 

Will I have to wait long????

 

Phantom

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O.K. Phantomborg, I'll go first.

 

With 10 folks, I would just have a plinking session back out on the 

farm.

 

I'll admit, 13-15 is about perfect,  in my opinion AND experience.

 

..........Widder

 

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2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Will I have to wait long????

Most likely you will be waiting a while.  But then introduce the heat and cold element and you'll likely get at least a few more. 

 

I suspect some folks would rather scramble a little more to get the match chores done, if it means being back inside their air conditioned or heated cars more than an hour earlier; especially those who are getting up there in years.  And whenever we've gone with the smaller posses, it really has made that much difference in exposure time.  

 

20 shooters waiting X 2min beep to beep X 6 stages = 240 min = 3 hrs.

10 shooters is a little more than half of that, depending how much set-up and tear-down the Posse is asked to do.  (Usually, in hot weather, I do the set up the prior day, and tear down the match in the cool of the following morning.)

 

We can speculate all day.  But the best answers will come when the shooters are standing there in the extreme temperatures and get asked their preference -- 20 or 10 WTC?    

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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3 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

O.K. Phantomborg, I'll go first.

 

With 10 folks, I would just have a plinking session back out on the 

farm.

 

I'll admit, 13-15 is about perfect,  in my opinion AND experience.

 

..........Widder

 

Borg??? No way!!! He will NEVER assimulate!

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2 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Most likely you will be waiting a while.  But then introduce the heat and cold element and you'll likely get at least a few more. 

 

I suspect some folks would rather scramble a little more to get the match chores done, if it means being back inside their air conditioned or heated cars more than an hour earlier; especially those who are getting up there in years.  And whenever we've gone with the smaller posses, it really has made that much difference in exposure time.  

 

20 shooters waiting X 2min beep to beep X 6 stages = 240 min = 3 hrs.

10 shooters is a little more than half of that, depending how much set-up and tear-down the Posse is asked to do.  (Usually, in hot weather, I do the set up the prior day, and tear down the match in the cool of the following morning.)

 

We can speculate all day.  But the best answers will come when the shooters are standing there in the extreme temperatures and get asked their preference -- 20 or 10 WTC?    

During the end of the NM ovrreach...er, I mean lockdown...

Only 10 were allowed per posse.

Masked, of course.

It was doable...but not the best time shooting.

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Depends on the match, weather, the individual shooters, and other actors.  I've been to matches with 6 on a posse, but 6 workers.  On really hot days that works fine. 

 

On the other hand, I've been to matches with 15 non-workers on a posse, with 2 or 3 workers.  That was horrible and didn't work at all.

 

Too many factors to provide an answer to the original question.

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23 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

Depends on the match, weather, the individual shooters, and other actors.  I've been to matches with 6 on a posse, but 6 workers.  On really hot days that works fine. 

 

On the other hand, I've been to matches with 15 non-workers on a posse, with 2 or 3 workers.  That was horrible and didn't work at all.

 

Too many factors to provide an answer to the original question.

I've been on a hell of a lot of 6-8 shooter posses...probably a fair amount more than Dusty Devil Dale...and never have those experiences been...relaxing...what's the word I'm looking for that won't be offensive...let's put it this way. If these shooting experiences (6-8 posse members), was the norm, I would have quit 17 years ago.

 

Phantom

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18 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I've been on a hell of a lot of 6-8 shooter posses...probably a fair amount more than Dusty Devil Dale...and never have those experiences been...relaxing...what's the word I'm looking for that won't be offensive...let's put it this way. If these shooting experiences (6-8 posse members), was the norm, I would have quit 17 years ago.

 

Phantom

 

Well, that may very well be the case next week.  Only 6 signed up.  I'm sure we'll have a blast.  It's a lot of work, but the folks are great to hang out with and there's not a slacker among 'em.  It does work great with the right people.  Otherwise, it's a dismal failure.  It's all in the attitude.

 

Frankly, I'll take a posse of 6-10 workers over a random posse of 15-20 any day.

Edited by Doc Shapiro
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On 7/23/2021 at 1:36 AM, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

Again...don't shoot me...

I always thought it would be a good idea to add a question to all apps for shoots.

What is your average stage time?

My 'average' falls around 38. sec per stage.

I have friends who used to shoot that 80. sec and 100. sec was average.

When I look at it I shoot 1.5 people...they shot 2-3 ppl...

In my mind, the 3 of us on the same posse of 15 ppl was 'time wise' like having 18 ppl.

Does that make sense???

(Giggles used to call me and ask if I was familiar with so-n-so...and would posse them to balance 'time')

It is frustrating when a posse who is 'on time' or within a shooter or two, to have the posse behind start crowding, because they were faster shooters.

 

Ive always thought (in both CAS and IPSC) that the average time each shooter takes has WAAAY less effect on the total time a Possie takes...than other factors like - Shooters being ready to go.... reset being efficient, and TO's getting one shooter off, and the next shooter ON the line quickly.   TBH I think the time spent shooting is relatively unimportant.... 

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7 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

Well, that may very well be the case next week.  Only 6 signed up.  I'm sure we'll have a blast.  It's a lot of work, but the folks are great to hang out with and there's not a slacker among 'em.  It does work great with the right people.  Otherwise, it's a dismal failure.  It's all in the attitude.

 

Frankly, I'll take a posse of 6-10 workers over a random posse of 15-20 any day.

But you're referencing an Exception... We're discussing ideal... Gotta stick with the Rule.

 

Phantom

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Last week, we shot with a posse of 19!  Was a long hot day.  I think 12 - 14 is a good size.

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If all positions are staffed as they should be, that takes 7, add the shooter is 8, 3 shooters in line make 11, 5 standing around yelling and interfering brings it to 16,  2 sitting on their carts at the back makes 18. Yep.... 18, I like 18 on a posse. It's a fact that the T.O breaths in a lot of airborne lead, believe me, I know for a FACT.  I firmly believe that nobody should time for more than 6 shooters in a row without relief.  Passing off the timer requires that there be someone that is qualified to relieve, and the chances of find relief increases with 18 shooters. Any experienced MD knows that building the posses list it NOT easy if it is done right... in fact, it is one of the most difficult jobs in putting on a large match. Trying to satisfy the "Shoot with" request, cover the bases with people to run the timer and folks that can score takes a lot of ongoing time and attention if it is done right.  

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

But you're referencing an Exception... We're discussing ideal... Gotta stick with the Rule.

 

Phantom

 

In that case, I don't think there's an answer to that question.  The concept of an "Ideal" is nothing more than a dream or a wish.  Now back to your regularly scheduled broadcast.

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8 hours ago, Constable Nelson #11784 said:

Ive always thought (in both CAS and IPSC) that the average time each shooter takes has WAAAY less effect on the total time a Possie takes...than other factors like - Shooters being ready to go.... reset being efficient, and TO's getting one shooter off, and the next shooter ON the line quickly.   TBH I think the time spent shooting is relatively unimportant.... 

Ditto!

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1 hour ago, Snakebite said:

If all positions are staffed as they should be, that takes 7, add the shooter is 8, 3 shooters in line make 11, 5 standing around yelling and interfering brings it to 16,  2 sitting on their carts at the back makes 18. Yep.... 18, I like 18 on a posse. It's a fact that the T.O breaths in a lot of airborne lead, believe me, I know for a FACT.  I firmly believe that nobody should time for more than 6 shooters in a row without relief.  Passing off the timer requires that there be someone that is qualified to relieve, and the chances of find relief increases with 18 shooters. Any experienced MD knows that building the posses list it NOT easy if it is done right... in fact, it is one of the most difficult jobs in putting on a large match. Trying to satisfy the "Shoot with" request, cover the bases with people to run the timer and folks that can score takes a lot of ongoing time and attention if it is done right.  

One large match , and I think it is a good idea, selects 1 PM, 2 deputy PM, 2 score keepers.

That starts out with 3 To's and 2 score keepers from the gitgo.

(Not to say someone else can't pitch in there) 

It is on the posse list before starting the match.

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 Deciding the split-point seems like it could follow a recipe, but on the ground in real matches, there are just too many varied conditions.   On comfortable Springtime days, we've shot 24 and had a lot of fun with everybody together.   During the pandemic, on very hot days, we shot two posses of 5 on a couple occasions and we still had a lot of fun -- finished much earlier.   Some liked the shorter matches.  Others said they were done too fast to be worth the drive.  Take your pick.

 

 MD case-by-case  judgment is what we have to work with, and nobody is actively trying to ruin everyones' fun or risk their health.  But sometimes, you can miscalculate.   Last weekend we shot 21 on a 104 degree day.  It was a lot of fun, but it became a very  L-O-N-G, and hot match.  By the end we were all over-heated and quietly wishing we'd split the Posse.  

 

Given hypothetically ideal circumstances, then I agree that 14-16 is probably a good target number for large match planning purposes. 

Your mileage may differ. 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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6 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

In that case, I don't think there's an answer to that question.  The concept of an "Ideal" is nothing more than a dream or a wish.  Now back to your regularly scheduled broadcast.

We can always discuss ideals... Something to strive for... Without focusing on the worse case scenarios.

 

10 or less on a posse is generally...and we have to live in a world of generalities, far from ideal.

 

Phantom

Edited by Phantom, SASS #54973
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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

We can always discuss ideals... Something to strive for... Without focusing on the worse case scenarios.

 

10 or less on a posse is generally...and we have to live in a world of generalities, far from ideal.

 

Phantom

I think I'll just leave it up to the MDs for the matches I shoot and not crib about it.  When I'm the MD, I'll make things work somehow.  When there are 16, I guess we'll have a near "perfect" posse.  When we only have 9 shooters, I guess we'll have 9 on the Posse. 

Perfect?  No. 

Reality? Yep. 

 

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We shot WB today in OK.98 degrees 90% humidity. 17 on the posse. I shoot early in the string, clear guns, reload loading strip and belt, drink water, relieve someone. Usually 3-5 shooters later. Everyone followed the same pattern. Avg. 28 pistol, 10 rifle, 6 shotgun. 45-60 seconds 

Per shooter. Rotation seemed to work well. No one was overworked and had a little time to relax between shooting and working. 

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