What would you do if you bought a handgun that turned out to be stolen?

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

I'm guessing there were two different firearms that parts were switched on for some nefarious reason.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

6 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

I'm guessing there were two different firearms that parts were switched on for some nefarious reason.

Right - if the Serial Numbers were located on the Barrel Flat and the Butt...this is why I was asking where the Serial Numbers were observed.

 

Phantom

[Fox Creek Stitcher]

Here's an update for those of you who have been following my saga.

 

The owner of the gun shop emailed me a little over a week ago to inform me that they would be refunding my money. When I returned home late last night from being out of town, there was a check with a really nice letter waiting for me in my mailbox. There was even a little extra included to cover the background check I had to pay for.

 

I thought y'all would like to know that this gun shop did the right thing. I will not hesitate to purchase from them in the future and will gladly recommend them as being honest and trustworthy.

[Jack Spade]

I know of a situation where a gun came back as stolen, however after a little investigating the stolen gun was a taurus and the gun that the numbers were ran on was a smith.  Same serial number, different gun.  We had a gun stolen one time and I found it about a year later in a pawn shop.  It didn't come up as stolen because when it was entered into the stolen database a letter was left off of the serial number.   I just happened to be carrying a list of the serial numbers of the stolen guns in my wallet.  ATF was called and we finally got the gun back about two years later.

[John Boy]

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/testimony/the-fbis-national-crime-information-center
 

 

[John Boy]

 

Let's say you hypothetically (ahem!) bought an antique revolver from a reputable and well known gun shop while you were visiting another state.  …. 
The truth finally comes out for the hypothetical “you”

[Kid Rich]

8 hours ago, John Boy said:

 

Let's say you hypothetically (ahem!) bought an antique revolver from a reputable and well known gun shop while you were visiting another state.  …. 
The truth finally comes out for the hypothetical “you”

kR

[Tennessee williams]

https://www.hotgunz.com/

 

This is a link to a website I look at sometimes. Keep in mind it's not a complete list of stolen guns in the ncic. This site relies on gun owners to post stolen items into it I believe. May not even be worth looking at to you as chances are slim the one you're looking at would be listed. It may grow with time though...

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

https://www.hotgunz.com/

 

This is a link to a website I look at sometimes. Keep in mind it's not a complete list of stolen guns in the ncic. This site relies on gun owners to post stolen items into it I believe. May not even be worth looking at to you as chances are slim the one you're looking at would be listed. It may grow with time though...

I would hope that in order to post a S/N as stolen, that you'd at least have to file some kind of police report and reference it...

 

I'd look...buy I'm too lazy.

 

Phantom

[El Chapo]

I would insist that they give me the gun, assuming I bought it from a dealer and paid market value for it.

 

Getting the money back would be a distant second.

[Tennessee williams]

40 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I would hope that in order to post a S/N as stolen, that you'd at least have to file some kind of police report and reference it...

 

I'd look...buy I'm too lazy.

 

Phantom

No, don't have to have a police record to post one as stolen. That being said, just because a s/n is listed on that site doesn't mean it will be listed in the ncic and vice versa. Basically has been a waste for the most part. In order for that site to work, every person that reports to the police a stolen gun to be entered into the ncic would have to first know about the site and second, they'd have to enter it.

[Tennessee williams]

8 minutes ago, Chacón said:

I would insist that they give me the gun, assuming I bought it from a dealer and paid market value for it.

 

Getting the money back would be a distant second.

Just my guess but I'd say that law enforcement agency would tell you to insist in one hand and pee in the other one. See which one fills up first.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

No, don't have to have a police record to post one as stolen. That being said, just because a s/n is listed on that site doesn't mean it will be listed in the ncic and vice versa. Basically has been a waste for the most part. In order for that site to work, every person that reports to the police a stolen gun to be entered into the ncic would have to first know about the site and second, they'd have to enter it.

That and if you want to screw with someone, you can list a gun as stolen without it actually being stolen...???

 

I for one would love to be able to access the NICS Stolen Firearms db. I deal in a lot of firearms...helps that these guns are usually estate guns, but I still deal with onsey-twosey purchases.

 

Phantom

[El Chapo]

13 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Just my guess but I'd say that law enforcement agency would tell you to insist in one hand and pee in the other one. See which one fills up first.

 

Considering I work at a law enforcement agency and I direct these sorts of procedures, I'm somewhat familiar with how the process works.  What I would really like to know is what judge issued a search warrant based on an NCIC hit from 24 years ago?  Because that doesn't sound like probable cause to me and I have a doctorate in the subject (although it's admittedly a little difficult to assess PC when the hypothetical doesn't tell us what law applies).

 

Obviously every situation is different and I don't know what the facts were in the affidavit, but based on what is in the first post in this thread, were I the judge, I would not issue a search warrant or allow a seizure of the revolver, absent additional showing.  That doesn't mean that LE can't ask for the name/address of where the firearm was transferred or even compel that information from the FFL who did the transfer. 

 

A thief conveys no title, but an bona fide purchaser for value from a dealer in goods of that kind has a better claim of title than even the purported true owner.  Or at least that'd be my default position unless I learned the law as applied to this good was different.  What that means is that if I walk into a store and buy a gun (new, used, or otherwise), I have a better claim than some guy who says that the gun was stolen from him before it ended up for sale in that gun store where I bought it.

Is that unfortunate for the guy who claims to be the true owner?  Perhaps, but it's been the law for hundreds of years at least.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

15 minutes ago, Chacón said:

 

Considering I work at a law enforcement agency and I direct these sorts of procedures, I'm somewhat familiar with how the process works.  What I would really like to know is what judge issued a search warrant based on an NCIC hit from 24 years ago?  Because that doesn't sound like probable cause to me and I have a doctorate in the subject (although it's admittedly a little difficult to assess PC when the hypothetical doesn't tell us what law applies).

 

Obviously every situation is different and I don't know what the facts were in the affidavit, but based on what is in the first post in this thread, were I the judge, I would not issue a search warrant or allow a seizure of the revolver, absent additional showing.  That doesn't mean that LE can't ask for the name/address of where the firearm was transferred or even compel that information from the FFL who did the transfer. 

 

A thief conveys no title, but an bona fide purchaser for value from a dealer in goods of that kind has a better claim of title than even the purported true owner.  Or at least that'd be my default position unless I learned the law as applied to this good was different.  What that means is that if I walk into a store and buy a gun (new, used, or otherwise), I have a better claim than some guy who says that the gun was stolen from him before it ended up for sale in that gun store where I bought it.

Is that unfortunate for the guy who claims to be the true owner?  Perhaps, but it's been the law for hundreds of years at least.

Actually some good points made here...and legally, they make sense.

 

Part of what my previous post hinted to was just because someone says something is theirs...that it was stolen...doesn't make it so. 

 

Phantom

[El Chapo]

3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Actually some good points made here...and legally, they make sense.

 

Part of what my previous post hinted to was just because someone says something is theirs...that it was stolen...doesn't make it so. 

 

Phantom

 

Exactly, and for it to be a crime (a felony in my state), the State has to prove that you received, retained, or possessed property you knew to be stolen.

 

I certainly wouldn't claim that someone "knew" something was stolen because of an NCIC hit.  That database is useful for what we use it for, but it is full of errors and mistakes.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

3 minutes ago, Chacón said:

 

Exactly, and for it to be a crime (a felony in my state), the State has to prove that you received, retained, or possessed property you knew to be stolen.

 

I certainly wouldn't claim that someone "knew" something was stolen because of an NCIC hit.  That database is useful for what we use it for, but it is full of errors and mistakes.

Which of course leads to a previous question: How did a Gun Store gain access to the NICS db??

 

Phantom

[Red Eye Jim]

 

3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Which of course leads to a previous question: How did a Gun Store gain access to the NICS db??

 

Phantom

 

I haven't bought a used firearm in at least 5 years, but it seems to me that the s/n was likely transmitted as part of the background check and it got flagged by the receiving constabulary. I wouldn't think the receiving gun shop would have run their own check, since they didn't sell the gun, but I donno.

*shug*

Whoever flagged it, the seller is dealing with it and our buyer got her money back and an apology.  Seems to me to be a honest mistake.

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

19 minutes ago, Red Eye Jim said:

 

 

I haven't bought a used firearm in at least 5 years, but it seems to me that the s/n was likely transmitted as part of the background check and it got flagged by the receiving constabulary. I wouldn't think the receiving gun shop would have run their own check, since they didn't sell the gun, but I donno.

*shug*

Whoever flagged it, the seller is dealing with it and our buyer got her money back and an apology.  Seems to me to be a honest mistake.

 

We don't transmit serial numbers in the background check...that would be gun registration.

 

The only thing that gets transmitted is the type of firearm (ie: long gun, handgun, other...etc/etc).

 

This story is weird...so perhaps you'd like it too end, it's still an interesting discussion.

 

Phantom

 

 

[Tennessee williams]

53 minutes ago, Chacón said:

 

Considering I work at a law enforcement agency and I direct these sorts of procedures, I'm somewhat familiar with how the process works.  What I would really like to know is what judge issued a search warrant based on an NCIC hit from 24 years ago? 

Not sure you are. In TN, when a gun is sold by an ffl the purchaser does the paperwork for the NICS check for their background. The serial number on the NICS paperwork is checked in the NCIC database of stolen guns. If it is on that database, the gun is immediately confiscated. 

At a traffic stop, an officer can and usually does run the gun serial number through the NCIC. If it is on the list, it is immediately confiscated. No search warrant required. So maybe where you're located you may know how the process works. Not for the location of the OP though.

Quote

 

Because that doesn't sound like probable cause to me and I have a doctorate in the subject (although it's admittedly a little difficult to assess PC when the hypothetical doesn't 

Obviously every situation is different and I don't know what the facts were in the affidavit, but based on what is in the first post in this thread, were I the judge, I would not issue a search warrant or allow a seizure of the revolver, absent additional showing.  

 

I know quite a few people that have had their firearm returned to them from many years ago. Your doctorate should make you know,  you don't have the right to sell stolen property. 

[Tennessee williams]

17 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

We don't transmit serial numbers in the background check...that would be gun registration.

 

The only thing that gets transmitted is the type of firearm (ie: long gun, handgun, other...etc/etc).

 

This story is weird...so perhaps you'd like it too end, it's still an interesting discussion.

 

Phantom

 

 

In TN it's required the NICS check the NCIC stolen gun database.

 On the NICS end, they are required to not keep the serial number more than (I believe) 24hrs. We CAN register a firearm to an individual here but it is done by the sheriff's office of the residents county.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

2 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

In TN it's required the NICS check the NCIC stolen gun database.

 On the NICS end, they are required to not keep the serial number more than (I believe) 24hrs. We CAN register a firearm to an individual here but it is done by the sheriff's office of the residents county.

Transmitting 4473 info to NICS for the background check does not include the firearm's serial number.

 

The idea of gun registration includes tying a gun's serial number to an individual.

 

So a gun store transmitted 4473 data to NICS, no serial number... How does the gun store know that the gun is then stolen. This is my simple question.

 

Phantom

 

[El Chapo]

45 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Not sure you are. In TN, when a gun is sold by an ffl the purchaser does the paperwork for the NICS check for their background. The serial number on the NICS paperwork is checked in the NCIC database of stolen guns. If it is on that database, the gun is immediately confiscated. 

At a traffic stop, an officer can and usually does run the gun serial number through the NCIC. If it is on the list, it is immediately confiscated. No search warrant required. So maybe where you're located you may know how the process works. Not for the location of the OP though.

 

I know quite a few people that have had their firearm returned to them from many years ago. Your doctorate should make you know,  you don't have the right to sell stolen property. 

 

I'm in New Mexico.  It is illegal for a police officer to run a gun through NCIC without reasonable suspicion that it is stolen.  In fact, it's illegal to ask any question or engage in any investigation on a traffic stop that is not reasonably related to the traffic stop itself.  Running a serial number is a "search" under our bill of rights.  That is not the law everywhere, but we have broader protections here.

 

The warrantless seizure of something in plain view is permissible if there is some sort of exigency that demands it or a warrant exception applies, but in this hypothetical, neither of those things  would apply--the purchaser is an innocent person without notice.  That is federal law, so the law everywhere.  There are at least 7 exceptions that could apply, so it's fact specific. But generally the police aren't seizing valuable property without

 

A NICS check does not include the serial number of the gun.  The NICS operator only asks why the NICS is being performed.  The last one I had was a few weeks ago for my SXS for this sport.  The only thing the FBI knows is that a background check was performed for the purchase of a long gun.  I don't know where you got the idea that the NCIC database is used for this.  It's actually a violation of the NCIC regulations to run anyone or anything that isn't part of an active criminal investigation.  It is illegal to run someone, even for a law enforcement related purpose, unless you are investigating that person.  The FBI takes that very seriously and they can not only revoke the individual's access who did it--if the regulations are not followed, the FBI has revoked entire law enforcement agencies from having access to the databases.  I don't know where you learned what you think you learned, but anyone who has been granted access to NCIC is trained in these things and would know you cannot run someone or a thing for no reason.

 

I certainly did take a course in "property" to earn my doctorate.   It has been the rule for hundreds of years that an innocent purchaser of goods from a retailer has a better claim to title than even the true owner.  The rule even predates the United States.  As I stated before, a thief conveys no title, but a dealer of goods in that kind can grant a legitimate purchaser a greater claim to title than even the true owner could claim.  This has a totally legitimate policy rationale--people who buy goods in stores for market value shouldn't have to worry that the merchant might have stolen them. The true owner can collect from the merchant instead of the innocent purchaser.

 

Who do you think the police are calling in the middle of the night asking these sorts of questions?  If I can answer them at 3 am when I'm half asleep/on call, I'm quite confident I can answer them here where I have all the time in the world to type my answer.

 

One of my guns is stolen from me and in NCIC.  I'm hoping to see it back one day, but not holding my breath.

 

BTW, maybe this wikipeida page explains the doctrine I'm talking about better than I am.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bona_fide_purchaser

[Tennessee williams]

41 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Transmitting 4473 info to NICS for the background check does not include the firearm's serial number.

 

The idea of gun registration includes tying a gun's serial number to an individual.

 

So a gun store transmitted 4473 data to NICS, no serial number... How does the gun store know that the gun is then stolen. This is my simple question.

 

Phantom

 

I'm saying in TN where the OP took place, the guns serial number IS and MUST be checked in the NCIC database via the NICS. This is how a lot of stolen guns are found in TN.

 

This is also probably what happened in the OP. If it was transferred from a state where that isn't required, the ffl would have no way to know the gun was reported stolen until there was an attempted transfer in a state where it was required.

[El Chapo]

1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

I'm saying in TN where the OP took place, the guns serial number IS and MUST be checked in the NCIC database via the NICS. This is how a lot of stolen guns are found in TN.

 

This is also probably what happened in the OP. If it was transferred from a state where that isn't required, the ffl would have no way to know the gun was reported stolen until there was an attempted transfer in a state where it was required.

 

No it doesn't.  The FBI requires a legitimate law enforcement purpose to access the NCIC database.  Running every gun for every sale would not be permitted and any LE agency that did that would have their access revoked.

[Tennessee williams]

8 minutes ago, Chacón said:

 

No it doesn't.  The FBI requires a legitimate law enforcement purpose to access the NCIC database.  Running every gun for every sale would not be permitted and any LE agency that did that would have their access revoked.

I would suggest you put your shovel down and do some checking. It's a fact.

[Tennessee williams]

44 minutes ago, Chacón said:

 

I'm in New Mexico.  

OP took place in TN

44 minutes ago, Chacón said:

 

 

A NICS check does not include the serial number of the gun.  The NICS operator only asks why the NICS is being performed. 

It does in TN

44 minutes ago, Chacón said:

The last one I had was a few weeks ago for my SXS for this sport.  The only thing the FBI knows is that a background check was performed for the purchase of a long gun. 

The only thing they know in TN 24hrs after my purchase is a background check was done for the purchase of a firearm.

44 minutes ago, Chacón said:

I don't know where you got the idea that the NCIC database is used for this.  It's actually a violation of the NCIC regulations to run anyone or anything that isn't part of an active criminal investigation. 

Wrong. Check your doctorate.

44 minutes ago, Chacón said:

It is illegal to run someone, even for a law enforcement related purpose, unless you are investigating that person. 

The purchaser is being investigated to purchase a firearm.

44 minutes ago, Chacón said:

  I don't know where you learned what you think you learned,

Luckily it wasn't from your doctorate

44 minutes ago, Chacón said:

 

but anyone who has been granted access to NCIC is trained in these things and would know you cannot run someone or a thing for no reason.

The reason is the purchase of a firearm.

44 minutes ago, Chacón said:

 

I certainly did take a course in "property" to earn my doctorate.   It has been the rule for hundreds of years that an innocent purchaser of goods from a retailer has a better claim to title than even the true owner.  The rule even predates the United States.  As I stated before, a thief conveys no title, but a dealer of goods in that kind can grant a legitimate purchaser a greater claim to title than even the true owner could claim.  This has a totally legitimate policy rationale--people who buy goods in stores for market value shouldn't have to worry that the merchant might have stolen them. The true owner can collect from the merchant instead of the innocent purchaser.

 

 

No. For instance. My weedeater gets stolen from a crackhead that is faster than my 12ga shot. That crackhead takes said weedeater to the pawnshop. I have reported my weedeater stolen. Our detectives are pretty good around here and don't go by their doctorate and actually search pawnshops for my weedeater. They find my weedeater at said pawnshop. Guess who has two thumbs and gets his weedeater back? Me. Guess who has to try to get their money back from the crackhead? The pawnshop.

[Tennessee williams]

https://giffords.org/lawcenter/state-laws/background-check-procedures-in-tennessee/

 

There's the full link. Here is a photo to save some time.

The "manufacturers number" is the serial number.

[Krazy Kajun]

Dang TW, you musta had a double helping of nanner splits today!

 

Kajun

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Years back, here in Tennessee, I could buy a gun and to my memory, the serial number of the gun

was never tied to my background check.   In those days, I didn't have my FFL.

 

In talking to an FFL dealer today about this subject, he told me that for every gun purchase in his store,

he calls TBI and they require the make, model and serial number when they do background checks

on a gun buyer.

 

As a side note, I only use my FFL to receive and ship rifles for gun work....... not for transfers or sells.

 

..........Widder

 

[Tennessee williams]

21 minutes ago, Krazy Kajun said:

Dang TW, you musta had a double helping of nanner splits today!

 

Kajun

Ain't had one today. Makes me a little anxious

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

If a gun is being sold by a person through a gunstore who has to do the legal paperwork before transferring it to a new owner, the seller should still be the owner if the report comes back as stolen. The seller is the one who should take the hit. Not the prospective new owner or the store that is facilitating the transfer. 

[Tennessee williams]

3 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

If a gun is being sold by a person through a gunstore who has to do the legal paperwork before transferring it to a new owner, the seller should still be the owner if the report comes back as stolen. The seller is the one who should take the hit. Not the prospective new owner or the store that is facilitating the transfer. 

Yes^

I think this is what happened in the OP. 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

I could be wrong but Tennessee uses TCIS (Tennessee Instant Check System) and when the check is called in the dealer has to provide the type of gun, model and serial number along with the name and address of the purchaser.  If they tell you to hold on be prepared for a LEO to come through the door within about 1/2 hour or so.  This information was given to me by a friend with a gun shop, I can’t verify it now because he has passed away.

 

Randy

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Background checks through NICS does not require nor ask for a serial number.

 

If the TBI requires it, it's purely a State thing.

 

And some of you give California a hard time