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   During the course of fire the shooter restages (after firing) his rifle with the lever closed. While on the way to the next shooting position he is called back by a spotter and a member of the peanut gallery to open his lever. Shooter went back and opened the lever to show an empty rifle. 

I gave the shooter a re-shoot because I felt it was warranted. My question is this:

Looking at the rules it states improper coaching from the TO is grounds for a reshoot. It doesn't mention coaching from the peanut gallery that I can find. (It could be implied)

 

1)If it does not allow a reshoot, how is the shooter supposed to differentiate between the TO and someone else while wearing ear plugs and adrenaline pumping?

 

2)If it does allow for a reshoot, how do we stop a nefarious "well meaning" buddy from getting someone a reshoot?

 

Should there be coaching from anyone other than the TO?

  

Edited by Tennessee williams
Added- it could be implied
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Reshoot was definitely warranted. 

 

Long guns, if they get closed after shooting a string, are to be checked that they are empty AFTER the stage is completed and before going to the unloading table. 

 

Anyone calling the shooter back for this situation, if that causes shooter to slow down, is interfering with the shooter.  Including the TO calling the shooter back.   And a reshoot is due.

 

Shooter really cannot tell, and does not NEED to be able to tell, if the improper instructions came from the TO or from others.  Hopefully, a shooter would know the rules well enough and just ignore the improper coaching.  Reminding the posse of the rules for restaging and checking a long gun would be useful at this point, too.

 

But, if it is suspected by the TO or Posse Marshal that this improper coaching was to assist a shooter out of a poor run (misses, procedural, safety or just plain slow run), I would still offer the reshoot.  But I would relieve the offender of any range duties during the reshoot and caution them to keep still while that reshoot is carried out.   If they repeat this behavior, I would think seriously about issuing a Spirit of the Game penalty to the "coach".

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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Quote

Reshoots are not awarded for ammunition or firearm malfunctions. However, if there is a range failure (failure of props, failure of the timer, or Range Officer interference) beyond the competitor’s control, a reshoot may be granted.

SHB p.20

 

Spotter is considered a "Range Officer" position. REF: RO1 pp.24 & 26-27

Members of the posse "peanut gallery" are NOT.

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
add reference
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TN,

This stage situation you posted is another good reason why there should be No Coaching

by anyone during a stage run nor any 'commands'  by anyone with exceptions for

REAL safety concerns and cease fires.

 

I hope you gave sufficient warning to the posse about such interference

and reminded everyone about closed lever rules.

 

..........Widder

 

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42 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

SHB p.20

 

Spotter is considered a "Range Officer" position. REF: RO1 pp.24 & 26-27

Members of the posse "peanut gallery" are NOT.

 

 

Thanks PWB. 

 Had the shooter been only called back by a member of the peanut gallery or two to open the lever would a reshoot have been warranted strictly by the wording of the rules as written? 

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1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

Thanks PWB. 

 Had the shooter been only called back by a member of the peanut gallery or two to open the lever would a reshoot have been warranted strictly by the wording of the rules as written? 

 

NO.

The T/O should direct the shooter to ignore such "improper coaching" (both by virtue of the source and the non-issue) and direct the shooter to continue with the stage.

 

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Coaching from other than the TO can rattle a shooter enough to cause a SDQ, e.g. shooter pulls pistol and cocks, then decocks w/o TO consent reholsters…live round under the hammer.  But it is so hard to keep quiet when you see a shooter starting a procedural.

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10 minutes ago, Tucker McNeely said:

Coaching from other than the TO can rattle a shooter enough to cause a SDQ, e.g. shooter pulls pistol and cocks, then decocks w/o TO consent reholsters…live round under the hammer.  But it is so hard to keep quiet when you see a shooter starting a procedural.

 

Quote

Safe firearm handling is the shooters responsibility. Refer to the Safety section for all firearm handling safety rules.

SHB p.11

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I completely agree.  Not everyone is wired to handle random directions when they are internally stressed while under the clock.

Edited by Tucker McNeely
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Recently at a small monthly shoot we had a fairly new shooter at the line. I was the TO in order to carefully watch and assist the shooter. First gun was ten rounds from the rifle. The shooter safely fired the ten rounds but did not lever the rifle and eject the last empty. As he placed the rifle down with the lever closed I as the TO ordered him to open the lever. He did so and out popped the empty round, he continued the stage and completed it safely. At the end of the stage I explained to the shooter and posse (most new to SASS) that in a match we do not call the shooter back during the stage run but do so at the completion of the stage and then the penalty for an empty round in the chamber. Good learning experience for all and the new shooter appreciated a clean stage.

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56 minutes ago, Marshal Fire, SASS 10064 said:

Recently at a small monthly shoot we had a fairly new shooter at the line. I was the TO in order to carefully watch and assist the shooter. First gun was ten rounds from the rifle. The shooter safely fired the ten rounds but did not lever the rifle and eject the last empty. As he placed the rifle down with the lever closed I as the TO ordered him to open the lever. He did so and out popped the empty round, he continued the stage and completed it safely. At the end of the stage I explained to the shooter and posse (most new to SASS) that in a match we do not call the shooter back during the stage run but do so at the completion of the stage and then the penalty for an empty round in the chamber. Good learning experience for all and the new shooter appreciated a clean stage.

 

I had something similar happen some time ago at an annual match after the rule was changed to check the rifle after the stage.  I was the TO for a new shooter who was still learning and I saw he did not open his rifle after the last round and laid it down with the lever closed.  I immediatly told him to open the action which he did and ejected the spend brass and then went on with the stage.  After the stage was over I had more than one person tell me I was not supposed to tell the shooter to open the action and was supposed to wait until the stage was over.  I told them all that I had seen the new shooter not work the lever and open the action after firing the last rifle round and that is why I instructed him to open the action right then.  Some still wanted to argue the point.

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9 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

SHB p.20

 

Spotter is considered a "Range Officer" position. REF: RO1 pp.24 & 26-27

 

 

 

I made this known during a "reshoot' request at WR. Had to escalate the call to the VERY top. They agreed that I was correct but noted that this wasn't the intent of the rules. That the intent was to only allow for reshoots from improper coaching from the T.O. They said that this is going to be changed.

 

I take it that it hasn't been changed?

 

Phantom

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12 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I made this known during a "reshoot' request at WR. Had to escalate the call to the VERY top. They agreed that I was correct but noted that this wasn't the intent of the rules. That the intent was to only allow for reshoots from improper coaching from the T.O. They said that this is going to be changed.

 

I take it that it hasn't been changed?

 

Phantom

 

The current rule docs (SHB & RO1) refer to "RO's" and "Range Officer" interference/impeding as grounds for reshoots...NOT the Timer Operator, CRO, or TO exclusively.

 

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4 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

The current rule docs (SHB & RO1) refer to "RO's" and "Range Officer" interference/impeding as grounds for reshoots...NOT the Timer Operator, CRO, or TO exclusively.

 

Thanks. 

 

Folks thought I was crazy for telling them that...okay, I may be crazy, but for completely different reasons.

 

:P

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14 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

...

1)If it does not allow a reshoot, how is the shooter supposed to differentiate between the TO and someone else while wearing ear plugs and adrenaline pumping?

...

This wasn't answered or I missed it.

 

IMO BOD would kick in if unsure whether the shooter thought he was being coached by an RO.

 

We should all be on the same page.

 

I would not like to see a lengthy discussion on the line over who the shooter thought was doing the coaching.

Edited by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217
added word
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13 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

This wasn't answered or I missed it.

 

IMO BOD would kick in if unsure whether the shooter thought he was being coached by an RO.

 

We should all be on the same page.

 

I would not like to see a lengthy discussion on the line over who the shooter thought was doing the coaching.

Nope.

 

At least not at a "Big" match. Shooter is SOL if the instructions came from a non-Stage Official. Doesn't matter WHO the shooter THOUGHT was doing the "Coaching".

 

Which goes full circle back to the issue of whether Coaching should be eliminated :ph34r:

 

Ain't this fun?!

 

Phantom

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As a shooter, over the past several years, I will usually ignore everything EXCEPT the one command that I, as a shooter, must comply with on the firing line

 

Quote

Willful failure to comply with a “Cease Fire” or “Stop” command given by, and while under the positive control of the CRO/TO. 

 

Peanut gallery yells anything, I will probably ignore it. Now, there may be consequences of that action, by I do not have to acquiesce to most of what comes out of the peanut gallery.

 

Usually, I know up before they tell it.

I know the long gun is empty when I toss it, whether or not it closes.

 

 

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I hate coaching.  Cost me a SDQ at Back At Cha instead of the "P" I deserved. 

 

Twice on separate occasions, the TO wanted me to come back after I only fired 9 on the first string.  I had already cocked the next gun so coming back was not an option.  Not only was it a distraction, it can cause folks to turn with loaded firearms.

 

Did I say I hate coaching!  

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