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Shooter instruction's are given and rifle can not be last, because the timer can't always pick up the rifle. Shooter shot rifle last, the timer didn't pick up the last shot of the rifle! The shooter got a P. Shooter went to the RO because the timer didn't pick up the last rifle shot and he got a reshoot with no carried over penalties ? 

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Once again, a TO/RO should be able to pick-up all the shots.  If the TO/RO is not able to pick-up all the shots it is on the TO/RO.

 

Did the TO/RO realize once the second firearm was picked-up that the rifle would be last and warn the shooter?

 

Yes , I agree that the shooter is fully responsible, always!!!  The TO/RO is NOT there to help the shooter.  

 

No reshoot and a "P" for the shooter.

Refresher RO course for the TO/RO.

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"P" Shooter did not follow stage instructions, "rifle must not be last". Shame on who ever gave the shooter a re-shoot!

 

TB

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Very lights loads in a rifle, pushed through a storefront window/door?, without the ability to get eh timer close to the rifle WILL result in shots not picked up.

No need to change equipment.

Club and and RO's need a refresher course on "stage" directions must be followed.

 

P

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Some folks shooting .22 rifles now doesn't help.  But I'm wondering, if you give him a P and no reshoot, what time gets written down since the last shot (or more?) wasn't recorded?  

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Posted (edited)

Thats kinda a Catch-22 situation.

 

Shooter earned a 'P' because he/she shot the rifle last.

But because the timer didn't pick up properly, that kinda creates a 'timer malfunction', in which

a reshoot is justified.

 

The problem with this scenario is that the shooter earned a 10 second penalty but its possible

that he/she saved time by the timer not picking up any shots.

 

Based on this..... I would say a RESHOOT is justified with no 'P' carried over.

 

When that timer is shown to malfunction, a RESHOOT is necessary to record a proper time

for the shooter, whether the shooter blistered the stage at 10 seconds clean or 30 seconds with a 'P'.

 

..........Widder

 

Edited by Widder, SASS #59054
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Question to those who think the 'P' is the proper call with No-Reshoot:

 

How would you record the PROPER and correct time for the shooter?

 

 

..........Widder

 

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1 hour ago, Von Dutch, SASS # 7995 said:

Shooter instruction's are given and rifle can not be last, because the timer can't always pick up the rifle. Shooter shot rifle last, the timer didn't pick up the last shot of the rifle! The shooter got a P. Shooter went to the RO because the timer didn't pick up the last rifle shot and he got a reshoot with no carried over penalties ? 

I thought you’d get to this if I didn’t, VD. :D.

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9 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Thats kinda a Catch-22 situation.

 

Shooter earned a 'P' because he/she shot the rifle last.

But because the timer didn't pick up properly, that kinda creates a 'timer malfunction', in which

a reshoot is justified.

 

The problem with this scenario is that the shooter earned a 10 second penalty but its possible

that he/she saved time by the timer not picking up any shots.

 

Based on this..... I would say a RESHOOT is justified with no 'P' carried over.

 

When that timer is shown to malfunction, a RESHOOT is necessary to record a proper time

for the shooter, whether the shooter blistered the stage at 10 seconds clean or 30 seconds with a 'P'.

 

..........Widder

 

The timer did not malfunction the shooter did! Been doing this for 26 years and that's why a long long time ago  when the lite loads in the rifle were getting hard to pick up the two clubs around here made the call to make the rifle last! Shooter didn't follow instruction that's why the timer didn't pick up the last shot!

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13 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Question to those who think the 'P' is the proper call with No-Reshoot:

 

How would you record the PROPER and correct time for the shooter?

 

 

..........Widder

 

Shooter didn't follow instruction that's why he got the P If the shooter followed instruction it would have picked up the last shot. If you want to give a reshoot for proper timing fine but he earned the P and to pull it is bulls**t !!!!!!!!

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ROI pg 10 (emphasis added)

Quote

No reshoots/restarts will be given after the first shot goes downrange as determined by the TO and Match Director – EXCEPT for:

- Prop or match equipment failure

- A Range Officer impeded the progress of the shooter (RO Interference)

- Timer failure or unrecorded time

 

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1 minute ago, Von Dutch, SASS # 7995 said:

Shooter didn't follow instruction that's why he got the P If the shooter followed instruction it would have picked up the last shot. If you want to give a reshoot for proper timing fine but he earned the P and to pull it is bulls**t !!!!!!!!

 

ROI pg 10

Quote

Reshoots or Restarts are not awarded for ammunition or firearm malfunctions. However, if there is a range failure (props, timer, RO’s) that is beyond the competitor’s control, a reshoot may be granted. The competitor starts over clean – carrying only accrued safety penalties forward.

 

...

 

The shooter starts over with no misses or penalties (except safety infractions).

 

The Match Director has the authority to override an RO assisted MSV penalty for a reshoot.

 

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11 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

I thought you’d get to this if I didn’t, VD. :D.

Hi Yul  Well the shooter said he was going to bring it up on the wire, Well as long as it's been he must have forgotten?

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3 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

ROI pg 10 (emphasis added)

 

 

Thank you BJ.

 

..........Widder

4 minutes ago, Von Dutch, SASS # 7995 said:

Shooter didn't follow instruction that's why he got the P If the shooter followed instruction it would have picked up the last shot. If you want to give a reshoot for proper timing fine but he earned the P and to pull it is bulls**t !!!!!!!!

 

Howdy VON.

Does it matter how the shooter earned the 'P'?    The timer did not record the proper stage time, therefore

would warrant a Reshoot.

You can think its BS all day long, but it doesn't circumvent the rules and guidelines which we all are suppose

to try to  administer equally for everyone.

 

..........Widder

 

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2 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Thank you BJ.

 

..........Widder

 

Howdy VON.

Does it matter how the shooter earned the 'P'?    The timer did not record the proper stage time, therefore

would warrant a Reshoot.

You can think its BS all day long, but it doesn't circumvent the rules and guidelines which we all are suppose

to try to  administer equally for everyone.

 

..........Widder

 

I'm not trying to circumvent the rules! in my eyes you people are ! The timer didn't record the last shot because the shooter didn't follow the instructions, that's why all are stages are written with the rule rifle cant be last! I Think it does matter how the shooter earned the P ! 

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Posted (edited)

How do you know it was the last shot that wasn’t recorded or one of the preceding 23 shots?

 

The timer malfunction rule would assume that’s the only failure or there would have been a clause describing the use and application.  
 

However, instructions were not followed.  P.

Edited by Tucker McNeely
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1 minute ago, Von Dutch, SASS # 7995 said:

I'm not trying to circumvent the rules! in my eyes you people are ! The timer didn't record the last shot because the shooter didn't follow the instructions, that's why all are stages are written with the rule rifle cant be last! I Think it does matter how the shooter earned the P ! 

 

NOPE, it doesn't matter how the shooter earned the 'P'.

 

He was given a RESHOOT.   Rules require that no Misses and 'P's are carried over in the reshoot.

 

I don't care how he earned the reshoot.   YOU posted the thread and wanted to know how it should have

been handled.   Wire Pards have given you information you don't seem to agree.

So be it!

 

..........Widder

 

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14 minutes ago, Von Dutch, SASS # 7995 said:

WAKE UP the P was for not following instructions the trimer didn't malfunction DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Please reread...

 

RO1 pg 10

Quote

No reshoots/restarts will be given after the first shot goes downrange as determined by the TO and Match Director – EXCEPT for:

...unrecorded time

 

If the TO KNOWS that the timer did not record the shooter's complete time, that is grounds for a reshoot.  The ROI does not state an exception on what caused the timer to not record the time....just that an unrecorded time is grounds for a reshoot.

 

1 hour ago, Von Dutch, SASS # 7995 said:

 ...the timer didn't pick up the last rifle shot...

 

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Reshoot was unwarranted.

 

Several questions come mind before a proper answer can be given.  Did shooter knowingly disregarded the stage instructions?  Do we KNOW it was the last rifle shot wasn'T picked up?  (Could it have been # 3, 4, 7 or8?}    Depending answers a possible solution might go thusly:    RO, "accept the time & P.  Timer didn't  malfunction... or maybe you' prefer..."

 

FAILURE TO ENGAGE/SPIRIT OF THE GAME A Failure to Engage or a Spirit of the Game infraction carries a 30 second penalty. The accumulation of two Failure to Engage/Spirit of the Game penalties in the same match results in a Match Disqualification Penalty. - Willfully shooting a stage other than the way it was intended in order to gain a competitive advantage (Spirit of the Game).  SHB, pg 23.

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Seems that some of you want to warrant a 'P' because of the shooters actions.

 

BUT, what penalty are you guilty off by not following the rules and guidelines stated by

BJ above.

 

When it was decided to give the shooter a RESHOOT,  all misses and the 'P' were

required to be negated from his score.   Its that simple.

 

If you wanted to give him the 'P', then you should not have allowed the Reshoot..... period!

 

..........Widder

 

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4 minutes ago, Griff said:

Do we KNOW it was the last rifle shot wasn'T picked up? 

 

ROII pg 8

Quote

As the shooter approaches the last shot to be fired, prepare to watch the last timer update and cover the timer’s microphone immediately after the shooter is finished, preventing the recording of shots from the adjacent bay(s).

 

Part of the reason we watch the timer on the last shot is to ensure that it picks it up.

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Griff said:

Reshoot was unwarranted.

 

Several questions come mind before a proper answer can be given.  Did shooter knowingly disregarded the stage instructions?  Do we KNOW it was the last rifle shot wasn'T picked up?  (Could it have been # 3, 4, 7 or8?}    Depending answers a possible solution might go thusly:    RO, "accept the time & P.  Timer didn't  malfunction... or maybe you' prefer..."

 

FAILURE TO ENGAGE/SPIRIT OF THE GAME A Failure to Engage or a Spirit of the Game infraction carries a 30 second penalty. The accumulation of two Failure to Engage/Spirit of the Game penalties in the same match results in a Match Disqualification Penalty. - Willfully shooting a stage other than the way it was intended in order to gain a competitive advantage (Spirit of the Game).  SHB, pg 23.

 

I would disagree, though, that this is a case that fits the definition of a Spirit of the Game Penalty.

 

If, and this is a big IF, you know that they intentionally shot the firearms out of order and shot in such a way that he knew the timer would not pick up the last shot expecting a reshoot, the correct penalty should be a MDQ for unsportsmanlike conduct, much the same as we have for other instances of the same:

 

EOT 2018 TG Meeting Notes

Quote

RE: Reshoots for "RO interference/impeding"

The idea of having pre-interference Procedural & Miss penalties carry forward to the reshoot score, along, of course, with safety penalties which carry forward under current SASS rules.

NO CHANGE TO CURRENT RULE = ONLY SAFETY (MSV) PENALTIES CARRY FORWARD

 

RE: Instances in which a shooter having a bad run intentionally contacts the TO, expecting a reshoot.

The appropriate response is a MATCH DQ for "unsportsmanlike conduct".

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
fixed typo
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BJ, that's assuming the TO did that.  As TO I've had mid-string shots not picked up, i.e.: moving away in anticipation of shooter's moving, changing timer from one hand to another, etc.  But, yes, watching to ensure last shot is recorded.

 

On the other hand, again, depending on the answers to questions above, offer reshoot and "P" is negated.

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I have only read the OP thus far, none of the comments. The correct call was made judging by the OP.

*The shooter incurs a P for firing the guns out of order. 

*The shooter MUST have a reshoot, because that is the ONLY way to have a recordable time.

*Procedural penalties do not "roll over" to the next stage as a safety penalty would.

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4 minutes ago, Griff said:

BJ, that's assuming the TO did that. 

 

That is true, but the OP has said, 5 times to this point, that "the timer didn't pick up the last rifle shot." I don't know exactly how that was determined, but he is pretty adamant about it.

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ROI pg 10

  Quote

Reshoots or Restarts are not awarded for ammunition or firearm malfunctions. However, if there is a range failure (props, timer, RO’s) that is beyond the competitor’s control, a reshoot may be granted. The competitor starts over clean – carrying only accrued safety penalties forward.

 

There is a reason for stages not to have the rifle shot last.  I think this should also be a question to consider.

Did the shooter's action create the timer malfunction?

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2 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

I would disagree, though, that this is a case that fits the definition of a Spirit of the Game Penalty.

 

If, and this is a big IF, you know that they intentionally shot the firearms out of order expecting a reshoot would be a MDQ for unsportsmanlike conduct, much the same as we have for other instances of the same:

 

EOT 2018 TG Meeting Notes

 

Actually that fits the definition of Spirit of the Game penalty,, IF the shooter thought shooting the rifle last was a competitive advantage.    The unsportsmanlike conduct call I'd reserve for the shooter that develops an "attitude" over a call.  (Belligerent, threatening... etc.)

 

Hence my comments were preceded by the need for answers to questions.

 

BTW, a time WAS recorded... even if it weren't the time @ the last shot.  ;)  

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So, now I have read the comments.

50 minutes ago, Von Dutch, SASS # 7995 said:

I'm not trying to circumvent the rules! in my eyes you people are !

Rules were quoted from the position of P, reshoot, no carry over.

 

No quoted rules saying to carry over a P.

No quoted rule saying no reshoot when the timer does not pick up the last shot.

50 minutes ago, Von Dutch, SASS # 7995 said:

The timer didn't record the last shot because the shooter didn't follow the instructions, that's why all are stages are written with the rule rifle cant be last! I Think it does matter how the shooter earned the P ! 

It's pretty hard to come up with a scenario where a shooter would get a P if they HAD followed all the instructions and covenants. P is pretty synonymous with "brain fade". 

Just fyi, it doesn't matter if the timer picks up every shot(notwithstanding firearm malfunction) except the last one. Ever had a TO stop you during a great run because some of your rifle shots didn't register on the timer? I have and it sucks. Don't do that. 

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17 minutes ago, Griff said:

BTW, a time WAS recorded... even if it weren't the time @ the last shot.  ;)  

 

So....let's ask this question another way...

 

Different shooter...

 

Shooter shoots rifle, shotgun, pistol... They get a a P on the rifle, shotgun goes just fine, shoots the pistols and leans way out through the small window where the pistols are to be shot from. He's got long arms and leaning way out there...TO isn't able to get the timer close because of the small window and how far the shooter is leaning out there. The TO is holding it out there as well as he can, watching the screen, and it doesn't pick up the last several shots...

 

What would you do, and how is it different from the OP's scenario?

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7 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

So....let's ask this question another way...

 

Different shooter...

 

Shooter shoots rifle, shotgun, pistol... They get a a P on the rifle, shotgun goes just fine, shoots the pistols and leans way out through the small window where the pistols are to be shot from. He's got long arms and leaning way out there...TO isn't able to get the timer close because of the small window and how far the shooter is leaning out there. The TO is holding it out there as well as he can, watching the screen, and it doesn't pick up the last several shots...

 

What would you do, and how is it different from the OP's scenario?

 

Give him a reshoot but make him shoot the pistols like a T-Rex :P:D (sorry couldn’t resist)

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Branch

 

Your hypothetical isn't the same as OP.  Poor stage design is out of the shooter's control.  Big shooter small TO is out of shooter's control.  Shooter has control over shooting guns in the correct order.  Shooting rifle last can/does create timer issues.   Both calls require looking at what the shooter has control over and what he doesn't.

 

Whiskey

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Let's assume that the TO was correct about the timer not picking up the last shot. 

 

What then is the argument for no reshoot and a P?  Are those in favor of that option OK with giving the shooter 'free time' off the clock so the P will stick?  Whatever the time was between the 9th and 10th shot accrues to the shooter's benefit.

 

OTH, what is the argument for a reshoot but carrying the P forward?  The rules are explicit, there is no exception to allow a reshoot and carry a P forward.

 

Reshoot, shooter starts clean.  Best solution.

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