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Changing Categories mid-match?


Diamond Jake
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I've been having mechanical issues with one of my shotguns, so I've been taking two to the matches.  (One is internal hammer, the other external.)  Last month after 3 stages I switched from the internal hammered one to the TTN and finished the match clean.  No issues because my category was Silver Senior.

 

What if I was in Classic Cowboy, started with the external hammer TTN, and it failed after the first stage was completed.  Classic Cowboy doesn't allow internal hammered shotguns.  Could I finish the match with the internal hammer gun and be scored in the less-restrictive Age category?

 

I suppose another situation would be having to re-shoot a Black Powder stage, and not have enough BP ammo to finish.  Could I switch to smokeless ammo and age-based category?  (Usually I'd just bring plenty of extra ammo, but it's hard to predict that a firearm would fail.)

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That would depend upon the match director. In our club's case, if it was our small monthly, we would allow you to switch with a reminder that it probably wouldn't fly at an annual. If it was one of our annuals, no switching categories due to awards being purchased based on registration

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Generally, once first round goes down range you are committed to the category you signed up for.  Bring backups and extra ammo! 

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IMO...

Any such mid-match changes would be up to the Match Director.


In the first example (Classic to Age-based) there would be no advantage in switching from a Duelist/Costume category as both the shooting style and outfit are allowed in Age-based.

Same would apply to the 2nd example...
BP is allowed in all categories.

 

That said, most Cowboy shooters would not hesitate to loan a firearm or ammo to another shooter under such circumstances.

 

 

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Just to add to what PWB just posted shooting style would have to be considered, if you’re shooting Duelist than changing to a non-Duelist category probably won’t fly.  Not to mention if’n you’re a Frontiersman and your pistolas decide not to play you’re most likely gonna be up “Schitt’s” Creek without a paddle. :ph34r:  (don’t ask me how I know)

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10 minutes ago, Tequila Shooter said:

Just to add to what PWB just posted shooting style would have to be considered, if you’re shooting Duelist than changing to a non-Duelist category probably won’t fly.  Not to mention if’n you’re a Frontiersman and your pistolas decide not to play you’re most likely gonna be up “Schitt’s” Creek without a paddle. :ph34r:  (don’t ask me how I know)

that's not exactly correct.  you are allowed to shoot duelist in an aged-based category.  

 

Going from gunfighter to an aged based would be verboten.

 

Additionally, fixed sight cap and ball revolvers chambered in .36 cal or greater are the only revolvers that you can used in every category in SASS! So, switching from frontiersman to an aged based category would not have a rule problem to deal with...

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Posted (edited)

My question was mostly rhetorical.  I've never finished higher than 3rd in category, so I'm in it mostly for fun.  I'm more interested in being able to finish the match and maybe get a Clean.  I'd hate to have to quit shooting in the middle of a match for something out of my control  (An MDQ would be my fault, so I shouldn't be allowed to continue.) I also try not to borrow firearms from someone if I have a functioning backup.

 

Also I'd still shoot in the same style and powder that I started with if at all possible; I'm just concerned if my "backup gun" wouldn't qualify.

Edited by Diamond Jake
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4 minutes ago, Diamond Jake said:

My question was mostly rhetorical.  I've never finished higher than 3rd in category, so I'm in it mostly for fun.

Nobody makes a living shooting Cowboy Action - fast or slow, we're all in it for the fun. ;)

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Posted (edited)

There are a number of ways to look at this.

But ONLY one way to properly handle it.

 

Ways to handle it include "allowing" the shooter to change to a category that their previous shooting style and equipment would have been legal within.

A Duelist could move to AGE based as Duelist style is legal in age based categories and having shot X number of stages Duelist likely provides no advantage to the shooter against those participating from the start in age based.

Same thing would apply to a Black powder category shooter moving to an AGE based as their propellant is legal and they likely have no advantage.

There are a myriad of things we "could" do.

And a lot of them seem like things we "should" do - after all - we're all nice people and we all understand that guns break after the first shot of the match, sufficient ammo fails to get packed and a millions other what ifs and might happens. 

We don't want to see anyone disappointed or unable to finish their match because stuff happens.

 

BUT...

ANY shooter experiencing the challenges above at a match of any size would have other shooters offering them the equipment to continue.

So probably no need to change categories there.

At a monthly - there might be a lack of available "legal" equipment to borrow - but the dreaded "We do it at monthlies" disease pops up then - if it becomes a thing.

So we should avoid it there as well.

 

The other reason to avoid this practice is category shopping.

There are always under populated categories (at State Championships and Regional Championships) - Lets say that there is a shooter in a given category that drops three rounds on their first day {taking their chosen category out of play for them} but perusing the score sheets they see an opportunity in another category.

Now we would never let them hop over under normal circumstances; but now because we want to be nice and not disappoint anyone...

All they have to do is "realize" their external hammered shotgun is "broken" and refuse to accept a loaner because they don't feel right borrowing equipment.

Suggest an "allowed" change to an age based category - and continue.  

 

The game is set up around owning the stage after the first round or owning your category choices after the first round.

Allowing changes to this opens a Pandoras Box of possibilities.

 

But Creeker - the rules also say. "Don't be a hard ass" 

Why do you want to send somebody home because their gun broke?  

 

There is no need for someone to have to stop shooting or go home (short of current reasons, MDQ, etc.)

If a shooter is unable to continue in their chosen category (for ANY reason) they (and their scores to this point in the match) are transferred to a catch-all SNFA category (Shooting Not For Awards) (and NO - this would not be an OFFERED category)

This allows them to continue to shoot, record their score and enjoy their time with friends on the range.

This removes them from any (main match) award contention or recognition.

 

Easy and clean and, most importantly, THEIR failure (to bring a back up, enough correct ammo, etc.) does not affect anyone elses match.

Maintaining the integrity of the current category system while allowing "honest" issues to not end someones event.

 

 

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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1 hour ago, Diamond Jake said:

My question was mostly rhetorical.  I've never finished higher than 3rd in category, so I'm in it mostly for fun.  I'm more interested in being able to finish the match and maybe get a Clean.  I'd hate to have to quit shooting in the middle of a match for something out of my control  (An MDQ would be my fault, so I shouldn't be allowed to continue.) I also try not to borrow firearms from someone if I have a functioning backup.

 

Also I'd still shoot in the same style and powder that I started with if at all possible; I'm just concerned if my "backup gun" wouldn't qualify.

 

Your choice.
You could use your "
illegal for the category" firearm and/or ammo and take the progressive penalties for two stages ("P", then SDQ)
The third violation would be a
MDQ.

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Posted (edited)

To be clear, I'm not asking for any rule changes...I just wanted to know if there was already a precendent rule.  This whole thing started with me considering switching to Classic Cowboy, but I kept thinking "What if my shotgun breaks down again?"

 

I guess I'll officially sign up in the age based category, continue to shoot my 45 Colts and Hammered shotgun, while wearing a neat costume and shooting Duelist style.  Then if I don't have any mechanical breakdowns, I can say something like "I finished 7th in Silver Senior, but if I had signed up in Classic Cowboy I would have finished 8th."

 

But I really like the suggestion of "SNFA category (Shooting Not For Awards) (and NO - this would not be an OFFERED category)" so I can continue to participate in the shooting and get scores for my personal development, without the progressive "P, SDQ, MDQ go home" penalties.

Edited by Diamond Jake
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4 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

Sounds like the perfect reason to buy a backup CC legal shotgun...

 

 

 

Yeah, if I have the Silver to go with the Senior.

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JMO.

I would be ok with it at a small monthly match.  

Bigger match??

I would be for once a round goes down range. You are locked in.

Bring backups.  

 

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The only reason you might be "locked in" should be if the MD thinks you're category shopping, which is not illegal or outlawed but frowned upon. That's the main reason big matches don't allow category changes after XX date. Also helps with the awards. If there were five CC's in the category, and one decides to jump ship to an "easier to win" category, then two categories are impacted. The "easier to win" because those folks signed up for a category they could, and do, shoot in. The CC because, now it's down to four shooters and, usually, doesn't qualify for a category until there are five shooters.

If there is a gun, equipment, ammo, etc condition, it should be no problem to switch categories during the match. Again, it depends on the MD having the right headspace.

 

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4 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

Sounds like the perfect reason to buy a backup CC legal shotgun...

Wait, wait, wait...  Buy a backup for the "prone-to-break" primary?   That seems azzbackwards.  Buy a better primary & get the old one fixed!  (Think "tank"... aka: TTN)!

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And just because you get a Match DQ does not mean you have to go home.  Hang around and help.

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38 minutes ago, Griff said:

Wait, wait, wait...  Buy a backup for the "prone-to-break" primary?   That seems azzbackwards.  Buy a better primary & get the old one fixed!  (Think "tank"... aka: TTN)!

 

Good catch, I lost focus there for a minute...

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Griff said:

Wait, wait, wait...  Buy a backup for the "prone-to-break" primary?   That seems azzbackwards.  Buy a better primary & get the old one fixed!  (Think "tank"... aka: TTN)!

Actually, it's the TTN that's having issues.  The right side hammer occasionally locks up and the trigger won't release it.  It also has a recently-repaired cracked stock that should hold up, but there's always the possibility that the crack will re-open.

 

Bottom line, if your backup shotgun has internal hammers, you can only use it if your category allows internal hammer shotguns.

Edited by Diamond Jake
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10 hours ago, Kulshan 20262 said:

And just because you get a Match DQ does not mean you have to go home.  Hang around and help.

 

By "Go Home" I meant "no longer allowed to shoot".  People that know me could tell you that I'll do my posse duties even if MDQ.

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At our state match this year I had a shooter in duelist category. He had already shot a couple stages. He was having shoulder issues and was worried about shooting one handed. I could not switch him to an age based category at that time. So we did allow him to complete the match  shooting two handed and simply removed him from scoring. That way it was fair to the other shooters and still allowed him to complete the match. He had traveled several hours to be there. Seemed like a reasonable accommodation.

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3 hours ago, Diamond Jake said:

Actually, it's the TTN that's having issues.  The right side hammer occasionally locks up and the trigger won't release it.  It also has a recently-repaired cracked stock that should hold up, but there's always the possibility that the crack will re-open.

 

Bottom line, if your backup shotgun has internal hammers, you can only use it if your category allows internal hammer shotguns.

Maybe developed a burr inside?  A visit to a good gun doctor could fix you right up.  

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6 hours ago, mean gun mark said:

... we did allow him to complete the match  shooting two handed and simply removed him from scoring. That way it was fair to the other shooters and still allowed him to complete the match. ..

 

To me that's perfect.  No one but the MD, Posse Marshal and a few members of the posse even have to know about it.  And the shooter can feel good about himself if he still shot a good score but was bitten by mechanical demons outside his control.

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You could also  just use the TTN as a single shot outta the "good" side!  Might be a mite slower, but you get to stay in category!

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