ROA cap jam

[Sedalia Dave]

Shot my new to me ROAs yesterday and I love them. Only issue I had was on two different stages a cap seemed to gum of the works and it took a lot of effort to get the cylinder to rotate. When my open tops do this it is a cap that get caught between the hammer channel and the cylinder. On my ROAs I can't see that area to tell if that is the issue or not.

 

I assume stock nipples and I was using Remington #10 caps.

 

Any ideas on a fix or is this just part of the fun of shooting Frontiersman?

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Hi Dave:

I've had caps get under the cylinder, between it and the water table.

I usually wear a neck knife to help get it out.

The neck knife also can be used if your thumb slips off the hammer while cocking, and the gun locks up (has happened a few times over the years). 

It can be used to depress the cylinder stop.

I've only once had a cap fall through the hammer slot into the action.

That was a PIA, since I had to remove the grip/TG and get into the action.

Hope this helps.

--Dawg

[Howlin Mad Murdock SASS #4037]

Are you sure it was a cap?

 

What is your load, was it a load that the ball was near the mouth of the cylinder?

 

What balls were you using?

 

Hornady .457 balls are notoriously undersized and can occasionally move forward and bind up the cylinder.

[Sgt. Hochbauer, SASS #64409]

Did you seat all of the caps with a pusher after capping the cylinders?

[Kid Rich]

The proper load for a ROA is the ball should just be shaved a bit by the forcing cone when you turn the cyl around.

kR

[Sedalia Dave]

2 hours ago, Sgt. Hochbauer, SASS #64409 said:

Did you seat all of the caps with a pusher after capping the cylinders?

 

Yes.

[Sedalia Dave]

2 hours ago, Kid Rich said:

The proper load for a ROA is the ball should just be shaved a bit by the forcing cone when you turn the cyl around.

kR

 

I agree but it tends to scare the rest of the posse. 

[J-BAR #18287]

The only few times (like 3 in 18 years) my ROA has jammed it has been caused by cap fragments from the cap just fired coming backwards into the hole in the recoil shield that the hammer nose sticks through.  The fragment interferes with the nipple and cylinder, preventing the cylinder from rotating.

 

Causes?  Either the nose of the hammer drags the spent cap back, or blowback from a heavy powder charge pushes the cap fragments backwards.  Perhaps light hammer springs encourage the problem.  I use 19 lb. springs.

 

Forcing the hammer back to cock the gun has cleared the jams so far.  It’s so rare I don’t worry about it.

[Sedalia Dave]

I was loading with 2F Goex. 25 grain spout on my flask and a dry felt wad between the ball and powder.

[J-BAR #18287]

I’m using Treso/Ampco nipples and the Remington #10 caps are a tight fit, which is what I want.  What nipples do your guns have?  Slix Shot nipples with their side vents tend to blow the spent cap apart more dramatically.  If your guns have Slix Shots and the problem continues you may want to experiment with Tresos.  Jedidiah Starr Trading Company has them.

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

I too prefer Treso nipples, altho I have some slix on some of my guns.
There's a seller on ebay who carries them too.

--Dawg

[Sedalia Dave]

56 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

I’m using Treso/Ampco nipples and the Remington #10 caps are a tight fit, which is what I want.  What nipples do your guns have?  Slix Shot nipples with their side vents tend to blow the spent cap apart more dramatically.  If your guns have Slix Shots and the problem continues you may want to experiment with Tresos.  Jedidiah Starr Trading Company has them.

 

46 minutes ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

I too prefer Treso nipples, altho I have some slix on some of my guns.
There's a seller on ebay who carries them too.

--Dawg

 

No idea if the nipples are Treso or stock. They are definitely not Slix. 

 

I'm guessing stock as my nipple wrench is ever so slightly too large to get a good grip and they have square heads. 

#10 Remington caps fit nice and tight. Some caps split when fired and others are mostly intact.

 

Going to shoot them again tomorrow and will take to time to diagnose if it happens tomorrow.

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

I’m using Treso/Ampco nipples and the Remington #10 caps are a tight fit, which is what I want.  What nipples do your guns have?  Slix Shot nipples with their side vents tend to blow the spent cap apart more dramatically.  If your guns have Slix Shots and the problem continues you may want to experiment with Tresos.  Jedidiah Starr Trading Company has them.

 

Do you know the thread diameter and pitch?

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

I have always loaded the balls directly against the powder be it APP or real black powder in my ROAs and they have the stock nipples as far as I know. Use Remington #10 caps.

[Clueless Bob]

From what I remember, stock Ruger nipples are hexagon shape.

[Sedalia Dave]

10 minutes ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

I have always loaded the balls directly against the powder be it APP or real black powder in my ROAs and they have the stock nipples as far as I know. Use Remington #10 caps.

Using the 25 gr spout and the stock rammer, the balls lack about 1/8th inch from seating on the powder. Using a 3 mm thick dry felt wad to make up the difference.

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Treso Nipples are sort of gold-colored, and have a TINY exit hole.  The tiny hole is obvious.

Slix have the vent holes on the side of the cone.
Ruger nipples are stainless steel, and have a hex head -- See Bob's picture 

12-28 is the thread size (same as Uberti nipples, but they are longer)

--Dawg

[Sedalia Dave]

Went out and looked with a magnifier and they are hex heads.  

 

Thanks for all the info 

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

44 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Using the 25 gr spout and the stock rammer, the balls lack about 1/8th inch from seating on the powder. Using a 3 mm thick dry felt wad to make up the difference.

 

OK gotcha, I use a separate loader with the cylinders out.

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

9 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Went out and looked with a magnifier and they are hex heads.  

 

Thanks for all the info 

 

35 minutes ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

Ruger nipples are stainless steel, and have a hex head -- See Bob's picture 

12-28 is the thread size (same as Uberti nipples, but they are longer)

--Dawg

 

Yep that identifies mine as Ruger nipples.

[J-BAR #18287]

My ROAs have extended rammers made by our old Wire buddy Manatee, Greg Tymn, at Banana River Outfitters.  I don’t know if he still does these.  It’s a .45 brass jag mounted on the  rammer.  Shouldn’t be hard to do.  It allows one to use smaller powder charges without messing with wads or fillers.
 

Shown with unmodified rammer:

 

 

 

I expect something similar could be done for the rammers on Colt open top copies as well as Remingtons.

[Major Crimes]

SD I think you have an unfixable problem.

 

Its a little none ROA fault known as IREALLYWANTTHOSEGUNS (its Latin don't try and translate). It only effects ROA's in the Northern Hemisphere and is unfixable (In the Northern Hemisphere) 

 

If only you knew someone in the Southern Hemisphere who was willing to help you out and take those worthless paper weights off your hands.................................................................................................  OH WAIT! I know who can help you.

 

Send the guns to me and I will see what I can do for you.

 

No dont thank me its the least I can do.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Like the cartridge shooters there is no need for gorilla loads. Gorilla loads and stock nipples will lead to cap jambs.

I have shot my ROA's for 15 years. Never had a cap jamb.

Remington #10's

Treso Nipples

Stock hammer springs

18 gr 2F goex

Wonder wad

.454 round ball

Extended length rammer to seat because of less powder.

This load then matches the load for my Cowboy 45 brass and R&D cylinders. Same felt recoil then!

[Sedalia Dave]

7 hours ago, Major Crimes said:

SD I think you have an unfixable problem.

 

Its a little none ROA fault known as IREALLYWANTTHOSEGUNS (its Latin don't try and translate). It only effects ROA's in the Northern Hemisphere and is unfixable (In the Northern Hemisphere) 

 

If only you knew someone in the Southern Hemisphere who was willing to help you out and take those worthless paper weights off your hands.................................................................................................  OH WAIT! I know who can help you.

 

Send the guns to me and I will see what I can do for you.

 

No dont thank me its the least I can do.

 

Major you are just too kind. Unfortunately ask anyone that knows me and I am a glutton for punishment. Started out with a Rossi 92 and a Stevens 311. then switch to shooting BP, Finally retired the 311 in favor of an 1887. Now I shoot Frontiersman.  

 

Not the fastest shooter by a long shot but I have more fun.

[Cemetery]

Only times I had cap jam problems with my ROA's is when I was using Remmy #10s that were GOLD, and not GREEN on the inside.  

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Cemetery Said:    Only times I had cap jam problems with my ROA's is when I was using Remmy #10s that were GOLD, and not GREEN on the inside. 

 

Those are the older ones.

Former Frontiersman champion Split Rail has a bunch, and likes them in damp weather.

--Dawg

[Pee Wee #15785]

Only time my ROA's jammed I was using under sized balls. My load is 32 gr of Goex FFFg, card wad, lubed felt wad and a .454" ball. I also like the conical that Springfield Slim makes for then. I used them for main match guns for years shooting 2 matches a month. Arthritis hit my hands so I use 2nd gen Colt 1851's now. With my speedI keep stock hammer springs and have not had any caps tie-up the guns, ROA or my Navies.

[Major Crimes]

4 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Major you are just too kind. Unfortunately ask anyone that knows me and I am a glutton for punishment. Started out with a Rossi 92 and a Stevens 311. then switch to shooting BP, Finally retired the 311 in favor of an 1887. Now I shoot Frontiersman.  

 

Not the fastest shooter by a long shot but I have more fun.

I understand, but if you ever change your mind the offer stands

 

I changed the nipples on my ROA to slix and use Remi 10's and don't have a problem.

 

Although mine is a 7" barrel and I use it for target shooting not cowboy so it isn't being run fast.

[Buckle Downs]

Glad to see this topic discussed, as I have been having the same problem with two of three fixed sight stainless 7.5" ROA's that I recently bought that all appeared unfired.  Based on all the internet advice, I purchased slixshot nipples for all of them and have had the exact same problem using Rem #10's and CCI #11's.  I am using Hornady .457 balls that all shave a nice ring, 25 to 30 grains of FFF, and a lubed felt patch.  I am positive the ball is not advancing and jamming the cylinder.   

 

The fired cap stays on the nipple but is split wide open like flower petals.  I have assumed the cap was opened up so much it was binding and causing the revolver to be very difficult to cock, or that the clearance between the nipple and back of the recoil shield was out of spec, though the cylinder will turn easily loaded and capped, prior to firing.  The fired cap is pretty deformed and seems to be opened up enough that it is simply too deep/wide to allow the cylinder to cycle without binding.  I didn't think about the possibility of a bit of the cap protruding back into the hammer slot--I will have to check that (tho the hammer is fully down on the cap prior to attempting to cock the revolver, so I wouldn't think that would be the problem).

 

I ordered two sets of the Track of the Wolf nipples (PRA-S).  I had read something that indicated this might be a fix.  I planned to test them today or tomorrow.  I'd love to get these ROA's figured out, especially with everyone saying they never have a cap jam.  I am having one or two on every cylinder with the two ROA's.  I am getting pretty motivated to get these fixed as I want to shoot them in a match at some point.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

On 7/4/2021 at 8:50 PM, J-BAR #18287 said:

My ROAs have extended rammers made by our old Wire buddy Manatee, Greg Tymn, at Banana River Outfitters.  I don’t know if he still does these.  It’s a .45 brass jag mounted on the  rammer.  Shouldn’t be hard to do.  It allows one to use smaller powder charges without messing with wads or fillers.
 

Shown with unmodified rammer:

 

 

 

I expect something similar could be done for the rammers on Colt open top copies as well as Remingtons.

 

Slixprings carries a similar replacement part for ROAs:

 

 

Ruger Old Army Revolver Longer and more Convenient Loading Ram (slixprings.com

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

7 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Slixprings carries a similar replacement part for ROAs:

 

 

Ruger Old Army Revolver Longer and more Convenient Loading Ram (slixprings.com

 

 

 

Just wish they were made from Stainless Steel or had a hard durable finish. Per the website they are "in the white"

[Major Crimes]

15 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Slixprings carries a similar replacement part for ROAs:

 

 

Ruger Old Army Revolver Longer and more Convenient Loading Ram (slixprings.com

 

 

Given how helpful you have been to me in the past PWB I just want you to know my generous offer to look after SD's guns applies equally to you.

[Pee Wee #15785]

I know of two fixes:  

 

1.  Change the nipples as the center hole in the nipples are shot out so are to large.  Too large a hole will allow to much blow back forcing the cap back enough to tie the action up.

 

2.  Change the hammer spring as it has been lightened to much which will let it bounce back enough to allow the spent cap to backout and tie up the action.  A stock spring is most times strong enough to keep the fired cap on even using a full house load.

 

Ran into both of the above on used guns, Colt style and ROA's, I have bought over the years.  I am not a gunsmith, but have been shooting Civil War cap guns and reproduction guns for 60 years.  If the nipples and hammer spring is right you don't need cap guards.  The only Civil War guns I have seen with cap guards had the hammer springs lightened.  A lot of the Civil War guns did have the nipples shot out giving cap blockage problems.

[Major Crimes]

In case your wondering why I want two so bad:

 

The last 2nd hand short barrel fixed sights version I have seen here sold in 2018 for $995 (on the aussie version of gun broker- its called Used Guns).

 

The full length versions sell from $1000 to $800 if you can get them (rare and far between)

 

365460 – Used Guns