Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Bonus Target vs Stationary


Recommended Posts

I didn't want to derail Mustang Gregg's post, but I had a thought/question.

 

Scenario calls for 10 rifle rounds fired on 8" plates at around 12 yards for a one second bonus for each plate knocked down (plates not hit are misses)... or engage a 18" square dump at 8 yards.  Which do you think most shooters would go for?

 

Possum

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Neither...I just shake my head and walk away...

 

I hate "dumps"...would rather just grab 10 rounds in my hand and chuck them down range.

 

8" plates at 12 yards...not good for a LOT of folks (usually those at the bottom of the score sheet). Now move them in and I think you'd be good to go. (and yes, I can hit 8" plates at 12 yards so save yer breath folks.)

 

Phantom

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

I didn't want to derail Mustang Gregg's post, but I had a thought/question.

 

Scenario calls for 10 rifle rounds fired on 8" plates at around 12 yards for a one second bonus for each plate knocked down (plates not hit are misses)... or engage a 18" square dump at 8 yards.  Which do you think most shooters would go for?

 

Possum

Assuming I have the ability to do either (and I think I do) it is simply a risk/ reward equation.

 

So assuming I can do a 10 round dump from the rifle under match conditions in 4 seconds (and likely will not miss unless I jack out a round)

That array costs me 4 seconds. 

But no benefit from that choice beyond time of engagement.

 

8" plates at 12 yards lets say takes me twice as long - 8 seconds because I would have to use my sights and cannot afford to miss.

But I get a 1 second bonus for each hit - basically washing out my time - then this array is faster (for me) and is the array I would choose to engage.

 

Throw a possible miss into the math and it goes something like this.

8" plates - 8 seconds.  ADD in one miss + 5 seconds. 

Time is 13 seconds - minus 7 seconds = 6 seconds.

Now the dump is more attractive.

 

In conclusion - IF I (and everyone would have their own cut off number) can shoot the knockdowns in 11 seconds or less without a miss..

11 seconds for the run - no miss penalty - 8 seconds in bonus. 

Array time is 3 seconds - 1 second better than the dump.

The math says go for the knockdowns.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Assuming I have the ability to do either (and I think I do) it is simply a risk/ reward equation.

 

So assuming I can do a 10 round dump from the rifle under match conditions in 4 seconds (and likely will not miss unless I jack out a round)

That array costs me 4 seconds. 

But no benefit from that choice beyond time of engagement.

 

8" plates at 12 yards lets say takes me twice as long - 8 seconds because I would have to use my sights and cannot afford to miss.

But I get a 1 second bonus for each hit - basically washing out my time - then this array is faster (for me) and is the array I would choose to engage.

 

Throw a possible miss into the math and it goes something like this.

8" plates - 8 seconds.  ADD in one miss + 5 seconds. 

Time is 13 seconds - minus 7 seconds = 6 seconds.

Now the dump is more attractive.

 

In conclusion - IF I (and everyone would have their own cut off number) can shoot the knockdowns in 11 seconds or less without a miss..

11 seconds for the run - no miss penalty - 8 seconds in bonus. 

Array time is 3 seconds - 1 second better than the dump.

The math says go for the knockdowns.

 

 

 

Now do the math for the slower and/or less talented shooter. I can pretty much guarantee that the plates are not the way to go.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with Phantom.

Consider the following.  Currently the 8" plates are 11.5 times smaller than the 18" square as measures by MOA^2.  Now think about the amount of time to change targets.  For many shooters (not elite) will take a second or more.  The return on the invested time to change targets is a wash, regardless of the distance, assuming a one second bonus.  Think about the motivation of the bonus.  I would try to make the playing field more equal.  Move in the 8" plates, two second bonus and move out (or make smaller) the dump plate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We have done this very thing.  I can't say exactly how far out the knockdowns were or EXACTLY how big they are, but my estimates are pretty close.  EVERY shooter, except one, went for the knockdowns.  Can't tell you how they all came out, but everyone enjoyed the choice and the challenge.  And that's kind of where the dump comes in; if you aren't confident in being able to shoot the knockdowns or simply want to shoot your fastest, choose the dump.  Frankly, we enjoy the variety.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

I agree with Phantom.

Consider the following.  Currently the 8" plates are 11.5 times smaller than the 18" square as measures by MOA^2.  Now think about the amount of time to change targets.  For many shooters (not elite) will take a second or more.  The return on the invested time to change targets is a wash, regardless of the distance, assuming a one second bonus.  Think about the motivation of the bonus.  I would try to make the playing field more equal.  Move in the 8" plates, two second bonus and move out (or make smaller) the dump plate.

I'll betcha just moving in the targets would make "it" more fun...That said, you still have the scoring issue. These kinda things make for mistakes...

 

Phantom

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

We have done this very thing.  I can't say exactly how far out the knockdowns were or EXACTLY how big they are, but my estimates are pretty close.  EVERY shooter, except one, went for the knockdowns.  Can't tell you how they all came out, but everyone enjoyed the choice and the challenge.  And that's kind of where the dump comes in; if you aren't confident in being able to shoot the knockdowns or simply want to shoot your fastest, choose the dump.  Frankly, we enjoy the variety.

Variety is a interesting word. I agree that having the same old match month after month after month...after year after year...can become terribly monotonous.

 

What's wrong with moving the KD's in so that everyone and their grandmother can hit them and just leave it at that? Forget the "Bonus" stuff...forget the "Dump"...just curious why not just write the stage this way?

 

Phantom

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Assuming I have the ability to do either (and I think I do) it is simply a risk/ reward equation.

 

So assuming I can do a 10 round dump from the rifle under match conditions in 4 seconds (and likely will not miss unless I jack out a round)

That array costs me 4 seconds. 

But no benefit from that choice beyond time of engagement.

 

8" plates at 12 yards lets say takes me twice as long - 8 seconds because I would have to use my sights and cannot afford to miss.

But I get a 1 second bonus for each hit - basically washing out my time - then this array is faster (for me) and is the array I would choose to engage.

 

Throw a possible miss into the math and it goes something like this.

8" plates - 8 seconds.  ADD in one miss + 5 seconds. 

Time is 13 seconds - minus 7 seconds = 6 seconds.

Now the dump is more attractive.

 

In conclusion - IF I (and everyone would have their own cut off number) can shoot the knockdowns in 11 seconds or less without a miss..

11 seconds for the run - no miss penalty - 8 seconds in bonus. 

Array time is 3 seconds - 1 second better than the dump.

The math says go for the knockdowns.

 

 

 

 

I think there's an error in your logic/math.  Nowhere in the OP does it say you are shooting 8 targets, only 8" targets.  With 10 shots.

 

Recalculating it would be 10 - 8" plates with 1 miss in 8 seconds.  8 + 5 - 9 = 4 seconds  That makes it a wash figuring your 4 second dump on the 18" square.

 

11 second run with no misses = 11 - 10 = 1 second for the array.

 

In any case I don't think I could dump 10 rounds into the dirt in 4 seconds.  I might could run a plate rack with the rifle in 11 seconds.  Unless it's a windless day and I have to shoot through a cloud of smoke.

 

Angus

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

 

I think there's an error in your logic/math.  Nowhere in the OP does it say you are shooting 8 targets, only 8" targets.  With 10 shots.

 

Recalculating it would be 10 - 8" plates with 1 miss in 8 seconds.  8 + 5 - 9 = 4 seconds  That makes it a wash figuring your 4 second dump on the 18" square.

 

11 second run with no misses = 11 - 10 = 1 second for the array.

 

In any case I don't think I could dump 10 rounds into the dirt in 4 seconds.  I might could run a plate rack with the rifle in 11 seconds.  Unless it's a windless day and I have to shoot through a cloud of smoke.

 

Angus

 

You are correct. 

I got caught up in 8 inch and 8 seconds and changed my count to 8 plates.

 

So dump is 4 seconds.

Knockdowns are 8 seconds.

I still think my times (for me) are accurate.

But with corrected numbers.

Im plus 4 seconds for the dump

or negative 2 seconds for the knockdown choice.

(8 seconds minus 10 seconds bonus)

 

With one miss on the knockdowns

Im at plus 4 seconds

(8 seconds plus 5 penalty {13 seconds} minus 9 seconds bonus).

Even time with the dump.

 

So any CLEAN rifle run on the knockdowns in 13.99 or less is the correct choice

(for me).

 

But to make it simple...

IF

The time required to (confidently) clean the small knockdowns MINUS 10 is less than 

The time required to dump 10 on the large static - the choice is knockdowns.

 

IF

The time required to (confidently) clean

the small knockdowns MINUS 10 is greater

than 

The time required to dump 10 on the large static - the choice is dump.

 

And IF a shooter cannot conifidently clean the knockdowns - their choice has to be dump. 

The bonus versus penalty is too great per individual target to risk it if they are unsure.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Now that I have figured the best way (for me) to attack these arrays. 

As the OP, I believe, requested.

 

I do have to address another consideration that concerns me - by creating a hit bonus - this has the affect of changing the "miss" penalty on each knockdown target.

Each miss now penalizes a shooter who misses more than 5 seconds versus other shooters.

 

Possum shoots it in 8 - I shoot it in 8. Possum is clean - I miss 1.

Possums time is Negative 2  

Mine is Plus 4.

 

That single miss gives Possum a 6 second edge.

 

This will compound itself as you look at lesser skilled shooters that will accrue more misses AND accrue more time taking aim at (while still missing) more challenging targets

(almost a double jeopardy situation - we are making it harder and then penalizing you more).

 

This is something that we should always avoid if possible.

When I was Match Director at Eldorado - we utilized a few moving targets.

One was on a track that could bring the target towards the shooter or be set to move the target away from the shooter.

 

I always set it to come toward the shooter.

This way by the time the slower shooters were completing their run - the target would be at its closest point (and easier).

I figured that the slower shooter was already penalized by being slower - I didnt want to penalize them further by requiring more distant shots as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Variety is a interesting word. I agree that having the same old match month after month after month...after year after year...can become terribly monotonous.

 

What's wrong with moving the KD's in so that everyone and their grandmother can hit them and just leave it at that? Forget the "Bonus" stuff...forget the "Dump"...just curious why not just write the stage this way?

 

Phantom

To give the shooter a choice, as I said.  If said shooter wants to challenge himself - shoot knockdown plates... if not, engage stationary targets.  Choice & variety would be the short answer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

I didn't want to derail Mustang Gregg's post, but I had a thought/question.

 

Scenario calls for 10 rifle rounds fired on 8" plates at around 12 yards for a one second bonus for each plate knocked down (plates not hit are misses)... or engage a 18" square dump at 8 yards.  Which do you think most shooters would go for?

 

Possum

At about half of our monthly shoots we do a "long range" target to let folks break out the single shot rifles.  Or use the main match rifles, but load the rounds individually.  This week we did two long range, one at 50 yards, one at 100.  Misses did not count, so it was time taken, but the 50 yard was a 3 second bonus, the 100 was a 7 second bonus.  Without real numbers I would say that 80% of the shooters tried for the 100 yard, with both single shot and Main Match rifles.  

I think for some it is the challenge, not the math for speed or best time.  Just something a little out of the ordinary.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oddly, I've only seen one large dump target in all the time I've been doing this.   Just not all that popular around here, I guess.   That being said, I'd like to see one every once in a while.   Would be fun to slam fire the Lightning at one.   

I'd also like to see the occasional knockdown for something other than the shotgun.  Only seen a couple of those over the years.

As far as 8" plates go, I did hit one, once, at 65 yards.  Then my rifle jammed and I could not finish the string.   This was a long range side match.

So, I am capable of hitting something that small and at a normal main match distance, I'd like the challenge every now and again.    

I think a bit of variety on occasion can be a good thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Nutmeg Ryder, SASS # 74966 said:

At about half of our monthly shoots we do a "long range" target to let folks break out the single shot rifles.  Or use the main match rifles, but load the rounds individually.  This week we did two long range, one at 50 yards, one at 100.  Misses did not count, so it was time taken, but the 50 yard was a 3 second bonus, the 100 was a 7 second bonus.  Without real numbers I would say that 80% of the shooters tried for the 100 yard, with both single shot and Main Match rifles.  

I think for some it is the challenge, not the math for speed or best time.  Just something a little out of the ordinary.  

 

I once was at a shoot where the tenth rifle shot in a ten shot string was really big one WAY out there.   You had to take the shot, but there was no penalty for missing and no bonus for hitting.   I thought that was kinda weird, but when most people missed, and the few who did hit it got to brag about it, I saw the value in something so unusual.  And here's why it was fun...

 

Took aim at the target.
Fired.
Set down the rifle and started to move to next shooting position.

KLANG

I thought that was SO cool.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.