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Bonus question


Mustang Gregg
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At LAR, we usually have at least one stage with a -5 or-10 bonus at our weekend (no prizes) shoots.

I don't hear lots of complaining.

But occasionally when someone early on makes the bonus then someone always has to say, "Now it's not a bonus anymore."

I reckon that it's still a bonus target and you don't have to try for it.

 

Explain??

 

 

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I like the occasional bonus target. Should have a degree of difficulty. Maybe a bird or a reload for a longer range/small target or something like that. Shooter can miss and still have a clean match. Might be best to limit them to monthly matches rather than state level or higher. 

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We only hold weekend shoots.

We are not set up for any state or even multi-day shoot.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, SHOOTIN FOX said:

 

Edited by Mustang Gregg
Fat fingers
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19 minutes ago, Mustang Gregg said:

We only hold weekend shoots.

We are not set up for any state or even multi-day shoot.

 

 

If your shooters enjoy the bonus, do it! 

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28 minutes ago, SHOOTIN FOX said:

Once a shooter makes the bonus, any after has to hit it or take the bonus penalty. Make it no reward, no penalty.

 

This.  As soon as it's hit, it's just another target.  I really don't like "bonus" targets that affect time.  Since at heart, this is a competition, it's still just another target.

 

For a shot that's a 5 second bonus with no penalty for a miss, how is that different from a normal target?  A 10 second bonus is worth 2 normal targets - that's a high value regular target. 

 

If I'm going to have a bonus target, or toss the "dynamite" into the "well" (stick into a bucket) or some such, I'll make it a raffle ticket for a bottle of wine or a free entry to the next match.  Then it has no bearing on the outcome of the competition.

 

Please don't have a bonus target.  It also complicates life for the score keepers.

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Hoss, yes most do seem to.

We're usually cutting a card in half.

Or trying for some distant goofy target.

Once upon a Time we had a chance to shoot Johnny Ringo in the head.

Just trying to keep it fun.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Mustang Gregg said:

Hoss, yes most do seem to.

We're usually cutting a card in half.

Or trying for some distant goofy target.

Once upon a Time we had a chance to shoot Johnny Ringo in the head.

Just trying to keep it fun.

 

 

 

Keep the crazy shot!  They are a ton of fun.  But give something away (free match, a beer to take home, a bottle of wine, $5 gift card, etc.) rather than making it time based.

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Instead of a time bonus, how about letting you take more shots at the shotgun targets to make up for misses on rifle or pistol targets?   Not likely to help total time but would make it possible to have a clean match.  I remember at least one stage written that way.  

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Posted (edited)

Doc,

 

Those are  really GREAT ideas, but after the rent, our club doesn't have any money to do any giveaways that would us cost anything.

We are a pretty low-buck outfit.

 

Much obliged,

MG

 

 

Edited by Mustang Gregg
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14 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

For a shot that's a 5 second bonus with no penalty for a miss, how is that different from a normal target? 

 

Actually, it IS different at least for some:

 

14 hours ago, Hoss said:

Shooter can miss and still have a clean match.

 

I personally don't care for a clean much match, but I still like bonus targets :)

Edited by Equanimous Phil
autocorrect...
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6 minutes ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

Actually, it IS different at least for some:

 

 

I personally don't care for a clean much, but I still like bonus targets :)

 

 

How is it?  It's a target with a value of 5 seconds.  I really don't see the difference.

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Here is my opinion of a bonus where 'time' is rewarded:

 

Tn Williams hits the BONUS target and gets a 5 second reward.

 

Widder misses the BONUS, and although no real penalty is given, he has just added a couple or more

seconds to his stage time.

 

If both shooters were neck and neck thru the match, Widder is now 7-8 seconds behind TN.

 

I would be better off getting a MISS than TN getting a bonus.

 

Anyhow, thats my opinion and why I ain't crazy about bonus targets that reward with 'Time'.

 

I do like Doc's idea.   Plus, if you make it a raffle drawing type bonus, and its for a free monthly

fee, then the club isn't really out any extra expenditure.

 

..........Widder

 

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I prefer bonus targets that have three characteristics:

 

 - there is no penalty for not shooting it, but there is a time penalty for missing it

 

- it requires the shooter to use a skill or skill level not part of the stage

 

- it does not unnecessarily burden the posse (e.g., resetting, set-up, time on-stage)

 

examples: shooting the bonus  requires a reload, a longer shot on a challenging target, etc.  

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One club we go to counts the popper birds as a bonus if hit but no penalty if missed.  The attendees really like that method.  Our club tosses in a bonus now and then.  Both places only offer 5 second bonuses and they are only at monthly matches.

 

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If you're only focused on staying clean then I guess from that perspective it's just a bonus.  If you're shooting to win, it's just another target in terms of the effect of hitting it or not.  

 

10-10-4, no bonus.  Borg Widder shoots it in 18 seconds clean.  Bill shoots it in 18 seconds with a miss.  Borg Widder is ahead by 5 seconds and clean. Bill is not clean.

 

10-10-4, with 11th bonus target.  Borg Widder shoots it in 18 seconds, clean with a bonus.  Bill shoots it in 18 seconds and misses the bonus.  Borg Widder is ahead by 5 seconds, both shooters are clean.

 

What's the difference?  In both scenarios Widder is ahead by 5 seconds.  In the bonus scenario Bill stays clean despite the miss.

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11 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

How is it?  It's a target with a value of 5 seconds.  I really don't see the difference.

 

==>

2 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

If you're only focused on staying clean then I guess from that perspective it's just a bonus.  If you're shooting to win, it's just another target in terms of the effect of hitting it or not.  

^^^^ this ^^^^

 

And while I think everyone should be able to hit a "normal target" with the right amount of patience and aiming, a bonus requires somewhat higher shooting skills. 

 

I like diversity in CAS. A bonus target that is difficult to hit is a nice diversification. It also provides additional possibilities regarding tactics: Do you expect to hit it and take a couple of seconds to engage it or do you just shoot it in normal speed (or not at all if allowed by stage description) to not lose time.

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All the local clubs I shoot at around my neck of the woods usually offers one bonus target a month, usually for a 5 second bonus and no miss penalty. It could be a popper claybird, a steel target rifle or pistol target with a claybird in the center that must be broken, a rolling mine cart rifle target with a 6"X6" knock down on top, etc. I can't say I ever heard anyone complain about shooting a bonus target. Everyone I know likes that little extra challenge. I can certainly see not having them at state or national shoots, however most of us just shoot local monthly matches to have some fun.

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28 minutes ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

==>

^^^^ this ^^^^

 

And while I think everyone should be able to hit a "normal target" with the right amount of patience and aiming, a bonus requires somewhat higher shooting skills. 

 

I like diversity in CAS. A bonus target that is difficult to hit is a nice diversification. It also provides additional possibilities regarding tactics: Do you expect to hit it and take a couple of seconds to engage it or do you just shoot it in normal speed (or not at all if allowed by stage description) to not lose time.

 

 

So put the target in anyway and make it a regular target.  As scores go, they are the same.

 

At the match I run, we regularly have 18 yard pistol targets, sometimes further pending the bay depth.  Folks enjoy it.  They are scored the same as any other target.

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4 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

So put the target in anyway and make it a regular target.  As scores go, they are the same.

I agree, from the competition point of view it is the same. But as it is the same, why then disappoint those shooters who's only goal and joy seems to be to shoot a clean match? A scoring app can handle misses, Ps, MSV, bonuses...

 

11 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

At the match I run, we regularly have 18 yard pistol targets, sometimes further pending the bay depth.  Folks enjoy it.

Very pleased to hear that! Reading the Wire, I often get the impression that the only entertainment are targets big and close, and everything else drives people away.

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Thanks for all of the replies and ideas, Pards!

We're going to keep having the bonus' stages at our local Saturday shoots as long as I am the PM.

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16 hours ago, Mustang Gregg said:

At LAR, we usually have at least one stage with a -5 or-10 bonus at our weekend (no prizes) shoots.

I don't hear lots of complaining.

But occasionally when someone early on makes the bonus then someone always has to say, "Now it's not a bonus anymore."

I reckon that it's still a bonus target and you don't have to try for it.

 

Explain??

 

 

Someone trying to be 'funny' or being snarky.

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Sue.  Yep. Probably so!

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2 hours ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

Someone trying to be 'funny' or being snarky.

How is someone stating the obvious being snarky?

A 5 second penalty for a miss

with 0 seconds bonus for hitting.

Is EXACTLY the same as

A 5 second bonus for a hit 

with 0 seconds penalty for missing.

 

As soon as the FIRST person earns the "bonus" then it simply becomes another target or task the other shooters must successfully complete if they wish to maintain pace.

 

Because at the end of the stage - I am either going to be even or 5 seconds behind the bonus earning shooter based on that single target.

Exactly the same as if it had simply been classified as a normally scored target in the first place.

 

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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I don't generally write "bonus" targets or if I do - they are 1 second bonuses.

Example:  with pistol, dump 3 rounds on the plate THEN engage TWO shotgun knockdowns.

Hits are hits - misses are misses - award 1 second bonus for each knockdown that falls.

This bonus is a reward for utilizing a heavier recoiling round (breaking out the knockdown loads) or taking a moment extra to hit the target higher to more likely drop it.  The trade off between longer aiming, more recoil and a 1 second bonus is minimal and we have added a "component" that some enjoy.

 

Or we can implement unscored bonuses (not called as such - but the same affect) that reward you in a different manner on the score sheet.

Example:  with pistol - dump three rounds on the plate THEN engage TWO shotgun targets.

Targets must fall to be counted as a hit - misses dont count.

Any SG target still standing at the end of the stage may be cleared with shotgun.

Any SG left standing is a miss.

 

This is a time "bonus/ penalty" as well without being called such.  As the shooter incurs more time if they are required to go back and pick up targets with the shotgun.

Or the benefit if their pistols took the targets down in the first place.

 

There are many ways to implement "bonuses" and skill shots without adding a column on the score sheet or calling them such.

 

 

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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I still use no miss / 1 second bonus at monthlies for really difficult plate racks or small non standard targets.

 

The goal is to make them worth a little something, but not miss value.

 

The 1 second bonus makes it visible on the score sheet so the shooter or others can see how many they got.

 

The no miss and low value is also is a strong encouragement for shooters of all abilities to hang it out there little and go after those targets more aggressively than they otherwise would.  The only way you get good at shooting difficult targets faster... is to practice shooting them faster.  There's more whoops and cheers when someone unexpected nails the tricky shots at an unexpected pace.

 

Plus the goal of monthly matches always has to be first and foremost to keep the shooters happy who are there to ENJOY the day.  The ones who may never go anywhere else.

 

When you start talking about two or three or more 5 second bonus targets on small distant pistol targets... there's going to be a some frustration even if the shooters aren't saying it out loud.  Doc is correct, once your competition gets the bonus... it's not optional anymore.  Now you have the stress of having to accomplish the same feat to have a chance.  I'm not saying that's always wrong, you just have to make sure you honestly assess how much stress you are adding to the match and tune that to what your shooters actually enjoy.  If you run largish matches with a wide variety of shooters from around an area covering several clubs that all do things different ways, my opinion is that it is best to err on the side of less stress.

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And then of course there is the scoring issue that folks seem to forget.

 

Oops...forgot to tell the score keeper that the shooter got the bonus since I'm not used to having a stoopid bonus shot.

 

Oh, yea!!! You shot clean...even though you missed the "bonus" target. Here's your cute little pin.

 

Really????

 

Ugh!

 

Phantom

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The only way I use them these days is to give you some incentive to hit something with extra rounds after clearing knockdowns of some kind, e.g., “engage plate rack with remaining rounds, with a 1 second bonus for each plate knocked down.”.   Makes it worthwhile to be careful on the initial knockdowns, and I really detest either dumping extra rounds into the berm (results in ammo left in rifles) or dump targets that incur misses.

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Just now, Crisco said:

The only way I use them these days is to give you some incentive to hit something with extra rounds after clearing knockdowns of some kind, e.g., “engage plate rack with remaining rounds, with a 1 second bonus for each plate knocked down.”.   Makes it worthwhile to be careful on the initial knockdowns, and I really detest either dumping extra rounds into the berm (results in ammo left in rifles) or dump targets that incur misses.

Dump into a berm??

 

Who in the hell does that???

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One club I go to on occasion has berms between stages which allows for going down range between shooters without calling a ceasefire for the whole club.  I have seen all sorts of fun targets at this club like the Texas star, can poppers, bonus targets that require an on the clock reload, etc.  Maybe special targets like this are not always practical for a major match but I have always enjoyed it for monthly shoots.

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Just now, July Smith said:

One club I go to on occasion has berms between stages which allows for going down range between shooters without calling a ceasefire for the whole club.  I have seen all sorts of fun targets at this club like the Texas star, can poppers, bonus targets that require an on the clock reload, etc.  Maybe special targets like this are not always practical for a major match but I have always enjoyed it for monthly shoots.

Two different things here.

 

Less than common targets and Bonuses...why make these targets bonus targets?

 

Phantom

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2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Two different things here.

 

Less than common targets and Bonuses...why make these targets bonus targets?

 

Phantom

I think the time bonus or the no penalty if missed bonus takes pressure off of new or inexperienced shooters.  Just a thought, have not really delved into the "why" of it.  Might need to come back and edit my post once I have thought on it.

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Normally I try not to include bonuses, due to complexity of spotting and scoring.  But in March, we shot the T-star with pistols (up to 10 rounds) at about 10 yds.  Misses on the Star did not count, but any left over rounds could be placed on a large dump target for -1 sec each hit, so a good shooter could clear the T-Star in 5 and get -5 on the dump.  But a less skilled shooter could leave plates on the Star without miss penalties, just the clock time.

Misses on the stationary dump target did count.It turned out to be a fun stage, and relatively easy to score.  

 

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