Thoughts on EOT and future EOTs.

[Captain Bill Burt]

The Paradise Pass Regulators know how to put on a Championship match.  The Burt's thoroughly enjoyed the match.  I've discussed that a bit on another thread so I won't rehash it here other than to say it was truly excellent and thank you Regulators.

 

I want to throw out an idea (not quite a suggestion, just yet) about future EOTs.  During the match and award ceremonies several cowboys/girls commented on how great the match was and how many new names were being called up for awards.  Of course there were plenty of familiar names as well, but there were a lot of people attending EOT for the first time for obvious reasons. 

 

As I'm sure everyone is aware, many sports rotate championship competitions.  Why not SASS?   I would like to hear thoughts on rotating the World and National championships East to West.   Perhaps have EOT in Phoenix one year, and in a to be determined location on the Eastern side of the nation the next.  During the alternate years each venue could host a major name match.  Phoenix would have Winter Range, and the new location would have whatever named competition they currently have, or a new one. 

 

I can see some obvious benefits to this one of which could be increased attendance.  This Year's EOT sold out in about an hour and a half and had a waiting list of 150 or so.   

 

I think the the sport would also get increased exposure, which could potentially increase membership.  

 

Cowboys and girls on the eastern side of the country would have the opportunity to attend for considerably less money.

 

One obvious negative is the impact on the clubs that are hosting those championships now, and I wouldn't expect anyone associated with them to like this idea, and I wouldn't blame them for feeling that way.

 

I'm sure there are plenty of negatives I haven't thought about, so fire away.

[Michigan Slim]

Your not alone. As I was walking the line this week it was brought up many times. And I think similarly.

[Frontier Lone Rider]

This has my vote.

 

I only attended this year because some young friends were attending since the match had been moved East.

 

I considered this to be a one and done as I don't plan to travel to Arizona.

 

However, if it would be offered once again toward the East, East of the Mississippi, I would definitely try to attend for a second time.

[T-Square]

Other sports, and the Exhibits / Associations world is well versed in this rotation.  The statics will show, (1) a small core of people come no matter where (assuming it's a qualified destination location), (2) the majority of the attendees will be from the region in which the event is held.

Hold the event in the West - the majority of attendees are from the West.  Same for the East. 

"Rare" to "Never" will you get all of the people to attend all of the time.  You will always have those outliers "I went because it's in MONTANA - and we LOVE Montana" or "I went because it was convenient to visit my ** nearby".  But the data remains true.

I think it's a great idea !

[Captain Bill Burt]

5 minutes ago, T-Square said:

Other sports, and the Exhibits / Associations world is well versed in this rotation.  The statics will show, (1) a small core of people come no matter where (assuming it's a qualified destination location), (2) the majority of the attendees will be from the region in which the event is held.

Hold the event in the West - the majority of attendees are from the West.  Same for the East. 

"Rare" to "Never" will you get all of the people to attend all of the time.  You will always have those outliers "I went because it's in MONTANA - and we LOVE Montana" or "I went because it was convenient to visit my ** nearby".  But the data remains true.

I think it's a great idea !

We were thinking of you while we were there.

[Polecat Joe]

I agree with you Burt. And I believe there are more SASS members east of the Mississippi then west.

 

[WymoreWrangler SASS 46187L]

I think a static location, like OKC/Landrun , which is  a centralized l location is the best for logistics is the smarestt move, finding workers will always be the number one challenge in hosting an event...  Sorry I didn't get to chat with you, but I did get to with your wife...

[Captain Bill Burt]

13 minutes ago, WymoreWrangler SASS 46187L said:

I think a static location, like OKC/Landrun , which is  a centralized l location is the best for logistics is the smarestt move, finding workers will always be the number one challenge in hosting an event...  Sorry I didn't get to chat with you, but I did get to with your wife...

I didn’t know you were there. Sorry I missed you!

[Yul Lose]

Alternating EOT from west to east is a great idea. I wasn’t able to attend because of a couple of things that came up, a broken bone in my foot for one of them. Finding venues that can host something that large may be a challenge especially if 700-800 shooters want to participate. Founders Ranch had its warts but it was big enough to handle large numbers of shooters.

 

I hope it happens.

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

Here is my take, and worth what you paid for it.

I think rather than rotate championship locations back and forth across the country why not have a larger club in the East host this years World Championship and a large club in the West host this years National Championship. Next year swap the titles, East being the Nationals and West being the Worlds.

It takes a lot of manpower, planning and just plain hard work to put on a quality big match and to be honest many clubs simply don't have the infrastructure it takes to put on a high level event. (food and restaurants, hotel/camping accommodations, suitable bays/props/parking/vendor space.....) Add in the number of volunteers needed (and their ability (think age/desire/the availability of their time needed) and your pool of desirable locations shrinks dramatically.

It seems to me that it would be a better idea to have SASS step up and assist as the coordinator of the basics that are necessary, such as large scale purchase of awards (lowering individual cost), possible aid in negotiation for hotel rates, ensuring that all the I's are dotted, T's crossed, contracts signed and smaller things don't fall through the cracks. This would also create an opportunity for a centralized/nationwide promotion of our sport by the governing body.

This could free up the clubs to deal with the actual running of a big match.

Referring back to another thread about a club having a second chance to run a state shoot if they did ok the first time around, this concept would keep the basic match in the hands of groups that have shown they can actually handle it.

Changing actual venues each year carries the possibility of a club being inexperienced and forgetting details, requires lead time of several years to allow a club to plan/prepare (same to the competitors). And don't forget, in an increasingly hostile and antigun environment a range/club may simply disappear without notice.

Since I did not attend this years EOT if one of the attendees could enlighten me, Could this venue handle and additional 220 (or more) competitors? Winter Range is relatively close (550 miles one way) so I am familiar with them and they regularly host 720 to 756 people (sometimes a few more), have sold out for years with a waiting list each time and have built an incredibly efficient and professional group/plan to run their event. If that task were transferred to another place each year would it be the same?

I am certainly pleased that this years world championship sold out in 2-4 hours, but was that because of the novelty of an first time eastern venue and will that be the case in the future if it is held in a different location each time?

To close it seems (to me) a good idea to have a major championship on opposite coasts if for no other reason than to reduce costs to allow all of our members to participate. It would allow the "flavor" of the differing styles of CAS to be presented to a wider group of competitors. It would open a door to advertise this sport to a huge audience and present SASS an opportunity to send a coordinated message to those unfamiliar with CAS, and display a family friendly activity using firearms.

Fully in favor just tell me if I can help

Regards

   

Gateway Kid

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

I belonged to an association that rotated its annual conference between the West Coast, the East Coast and the central US (loosely defined as not the coasts).  Mostly, attendees were from the region holding the conference.

 

The conferences were in the planning stages at least three years out.  The various committees had their venues reserved three years, or more, in advance and were lining up presenters and schedules.  These were all volunteers, the only paid staff was at the national headquarters, sort of like SASS.

 

Rotating the venue can be done.  The regional attendance problem may be tough to overcome.  Being on the West Coast, I don’t see myself driving to the East Coast for a match.  I have attended Winter Range several times and EOT once in New Mexico.  That’s about the limit of my range.  Somehow, I don’t think I am all that different than most folks.  
 

If EOT in Phoenix draws the same number of people as Winter Range did, then attendance shouldn’t be a problem.   But, the whole regional preferences thing cuts out some members.

[Chicken George*]

Wherever it is held, it needs be big enough that it can't be sold out in an hour and a half. Or even a few days. It can't be a world championship if all of the best shooters that want to attend, can't attend. 

[Krazy Kajun]

Part of the reason it sold out so fast is that there were a good number of people who had registered for 2020 EOT which was canceled. They were given the choice to “roll over” their registration to the 2021 EOT or get their money back. A good number of them rolled it over and had a place holder for the match before registration was opened for this year’s match.  However given the number of people on the initial waiting list I still think it would have sold out fairly quickly, just not in two hours. 
 

Getting back to the OPs point I think if you look at the numbers of how many people were at EOT for their first time I’d think the majority of them were people living more easterly than westerly. I live in GA and this was my first EOT. I had a great time and would definitely attend again if it were more to the east than west.
 

Moving EOT even for one year is a monumental task and Misty and CC Top and EVERYONE involved in this years match did a great job. It would take a good bit of finagling and volunteer work to move it anyplace in the East but my saddle is parked is the East so I’d vote for it being rotated from the West to the East every 3rd year. Given the amount of work and planning one years prior notice would be hard to pull off, although Paradise Pass didn’t yeoman’s duty pulling it off with less than one years notice. 
 

The subject is a lot to chew on so there would be much wailing and gnashing of teeth from folks East and West concerning this. 
 

Kajun

[Captain Bill Burt]

42 minutes ago, Krazy Kajun said:

Part of the reason it sold out so fast is that there were a good number of people who had registered for 2020 EOT which was canceled. They were given the choice to “roll over” their registration to the 2021 EOT or get their money back. A good number of them rolled it over and had a place holder for the match before registration was opened for this year’s match.  However given the number of people on the initial waiting list I still think it would have sold out fairly quickly, just not in two hours. 
 

Getting back to the OPs point I think if you look at the numbers of how many people were at EOT for their first time I’d think the majority of them were people living more easterly than westerly. I live in GA and this was my first EOT. I had a great time and would definitely attend again if it were more to the east than west.
 

Moving EOT even for one year is a monumental task and Misty and CC Top and EVERYONE involved in this years match did a great job. It would take a good bit of finagling and volunteer work to move it anyplace in the East but my saddle is parked is the East so I’d vote for it being rotated from the West to the East every 3rd year. Given the amount of work and planning one years prior notice would be hard to pull off, although Paradise Pass didn’t yeoman’s duty pulling it off with less than one years notice. 
 

The subject is a lot to chew on so there would be much wailing and gnashing of teeth from folks East and West concerning this. 
 

Kajun

I definitely agree!

[Captain Bill Burt]

1 hour ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

Here is my take, and worth what you paid for it.

I think rather than rotate championship locations back and forth across the country why not have a larger club in the East host this years World Championship and a large club in the West host this years National Championship. Next year swap the titles, East being the Nationals and West being the Worlds.

It takes a lot of manpower, planning and just plain hard work to put on a quality big match and to be honest many clubs simply don't have the infrastructure it takes to put on a high level event. (food and restaurants, hotel/camping accommodations, suitable bays/props/parking/vendor space.....) Add in the number of volunteers needed (and their ability (think age/desire/the availability of their time needed) and your pool of desirable locations shrinks dramatically.

It seems to me that it would be a better idea to have SASS step up and assist as the coordinator of the basics that are necessary, such as large scale purchase of awards (lowering individual cost), possible aid in negotiation for hotel rates, ensuring that all the I's are dotted, T's crossed, contracts signed and smaller things don't fall through the cracks. This would also create an opportunity for a centralized/nationwide promotion of our sport by the governing body.

This could free up the clubs to deal with the actual running of a big match.

Referring back to another thread about a club having a second chance to run a state shoot if they did ok the first time around, this concept would keep the basic match in the hands of groups that have shown they can actually handle it.

Changing actual venues each year carries the possibility of a club being inexperienced and forgetting details, requires lead time of several years to allow a club to plan/prepare (same to the competitors). And don't forget, in an increasingly hostile and antigun environment a range/club may simply disappear without notice.

Since I did not attend this years EOT if one of the attendees could enlighten me, Could this venue handle and additional 220 (or more) competitors? Winter Range is relatively close (550 miles one way) so I am familiar with them and they regularly host 720 to 756 people (sometimes a few more), have sold out for years with a waiting list each time and have built an incredibly efficient and professional group/plan to run their event. If that task were transferred to another place each year would it be the same?

I am certainly pleased that this years world championship sold out in 2-4 hours, but was that because of the novelty of an first time eastern venue and will that be the case in the future if it is held in a different location each time?

To close it seems (to me) a good idea to have a major championship on opposite coasts if for no other reason than to reduce costs to allow all of our members to participate. It would allow the "flavor" of the differing styles of CAS to be presented to a wider group of competitors. It would open a door to advertise this sport to a huge audience and present SASS an opportunity to send a coordinated message to those unfamiliar with CAS, and display a family friendly activity using firearms.

Fully in favor just tell me if I can help

Regards

   

Gateway Kid

I really like that idea.  Clubs get to continue holding title matches every year, and take advantage of their investment in equipment, and experience.

[Three Gun Cole]

I think the idea of having one venue east of the Mississippi River to hold the world championship and or national championships on a bi-annual basis would improve attendance.

 

I shot Winter Range once, it was a long drive and I’m not likely to be doing that again.  
I have also shot 6 EOT’s at Founders ranch.   (05,08,14,16,18,19 & was scheduled for 2020)

 

I definitely would shoot at Paradise Pass again. 

[Diamond Jake]

I live 6 hours from Paradise Pass and couldn't go because I missed the sign up deadline (hour).  I plan to hit an EOT or large match out West sometime in next year or two.  I love the West and would do a lot of sight seeing in addition to the EOT match.  If EOT was within a 10 hour drive of Tennessee I'd try to go every year.

[WymoreWrangler SASS 46187L]

3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I didn’t know you were there. Sorry I missed you!

You were sitting on the bench talking with someone,  that's when I talked with your wife....  If I was a snake!!!  LOL

[Clueless Bob]

I've seen clubs run state and regional matches year after year with great results, but after a while, the club grows tired and takes a step back.  Seeing it move around has its benefits (spreading the wealth so to speak) as well as problems(one club has issues which shouldn't hinder them from hosting again, but as we know, it will).  Another issue is similar to Time Shares.  You go to the same place year after year, it will soon become stale.

 

Another idea along similar lines, as mentioned above is, instead of 2 places, one on each coast, but 4 places, 2 on each coast. 1 place for National, 1 place World per coast, with the National and World matches swapping back and forth between the coast each year.  This would give the selected sights 2 years to prep, set up, and run their match.  It also gives the club a chance to take a breath before they have to begin again.  This will give all of us a better chance of attending one of these great matches.  It also gives our International members to select different parts of our country as well.

 

Our country is huge!  It seems to me, that it would be a shame to limit us to one location, year after year.  We've got the chance to make changes.  Changes, that seems what a lot of folks want, in regards to where our National and World matches are held.

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

Having a National/World Championship match near both coasts is a great idea but as you delve into the topic, you must be able to identify a handful of clubs that can or are willing to support 800+- competitors.  Many clubs I've shot at can accommodate 150-350 but as the matches get larger, the logistics are far much more involved than many clubs can handle.

 

Norco consistently hosted 800 to 1200 shooters annually but eventually outgrew the range for multiple reasons.   It was however a huge cash cow for SASS because of the 12,000 spectators annually being close to the large metro area.  

 

Ben Avery is a given with generally decent weather, a large range, International airport, hotels galore, sufficient camping close by, and a professional group of volunteers with years of experience to run it properly.  A little more focused advertising might bring in more spectators and ultimately more membership.

 

So my question is, What ranges east of the Big Muddy have the ability/infrastructure/desire to host 800+- shooters?  It sounds like Paradise Pass did a bang up job but if they are limited to 500, it won't make the cut for a National/World event.  Can the range handle more folks now that they have gotten their feet wet?  

 

I think this is a great topic to discuss as SASS needs more exposure and the eastern half of the country needs more opportunity to enjoy these big events.

[Waimea]

Move it around.

 

Maybe even Europe one year.

Down under another.

The "world" is quite a bit bigger than the US.

 

[Palmetto Traveller]

I like the idea of rotating the events between the east and the west. We've never attended EOT at Founders Ranch simply because it was too far so we won't be attending it in AZ either but if it was within a 10 hour drive max we would be much more likely to attend. Couldn't make this year's match due to health and vacation issues but with more time to plan things would be different. 

If I can offer one other suggestion it would be to mix everyone up. I looked at the Posse assignments and it looked like most people from a given posse were from the same state or area. We attend 6 state or higher level events each year and prefer to not be on the same posse as everyone from our area. The matches have been way more enjoyable meeting and shooting with new people from all over the country. We love our SC Cowboy family but I've had a blast meeting so many new folks.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

42 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

What ranges east of the Big Muddy have the ability/infrastructure/desire to host 800+- shooters? 

 

They built that range at Sparta in the wrong state ...

 

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

26 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

They built that range at Sparta in the wrong state ...

 

Exactly!  That's the only range I've heard about in that direction that can handle big numbers.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

What about the CMP range in Talladega?

 

Not sure what their total parking situation is like, currently.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

First, I have a CAVEAT:  I was not in attendance.  I am unfortunately, suffering a highly infectious disease, brought home from the Tropics:  LAKAFUNDUS.  This malady required I remain in my domicile and attempt recovery.

 

NOW.  I agree completely with Capt. Bill Burt.  It was quite refreshing to see a bunch of new monikers atop the Podiums.  Folks not seen before at EOT nor Winter Range.  And many of them I know well enough to say "Hi !!  How've You Been ??  Winter Well ??"  As such I can hearty endorse rotating the location for End of Trail to different Venue's.  It may well be some difficult to find clubs, large enough (Physical Venue), with enough participating population and willing to undertake hosting such a large gathering.  Having worked at Clubs/Ranges that hosted some well attended Three Day matches, it be a whole bundle of WORK.  However, I still like the idea of EoT becoming a moving target.  Sort of like "Brother Love's Traveling Salvation Show." (Stolen famous music lyric).  All you need are some folks Crazy Enough to do it.

[Clueless Bob]

2 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

So my question is, What ranges east of the Big Muddy have the ability/infrastructure/desire to host 800+- shooters?

 

Good question that has never really, and seriously been considered in the past.  Every time it was brought up, it was shot down without any real, honest discussion.  It was always “Its been in CA from the beginning and would be a shame to remove the roots of SASS and move it elsewhere.”  Then when CA officially lost its mind and the Wild Bunch moves to NM and it was the same comment, but just Founders Ranch.  Also, they would say that we have a “home” in Founders Ranch and spent all that money, so why look elsewhere?  Well, SASS as we know it, is now homeless.  

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

Ah yes that rotation idea for EOT  sounds great, now lets see Australia next year, then Germany,  Italy etc etc..

[wyliefoxEsquire]

IT SHOULD ROTATED!!!!!

[Marshal Chance Morgun]

So, is it the chance of winning or just being able to say you attended the match? Whether it's because of the distance, time , and money, or a limit on the number of entries, not everyone who wants to attend can do so.

Should the 150 shooters from this years waiting list be the 1st 150 entries for next year? Should the top 5 in each Cat. from this year also be guaranteed entry? You're never going to make everyone happy. 

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

So, is it the chance of winning or just being able to say you attended the match? Whether it's because of the distance, time , and money, or a limit on the number of entries, not everyone who wants to attend can do so.

Should the 150 shooters from this years waiting list be the 1st 150 entries for next year? Should the top 5 in each Cat. from this year also be guaranteed entry? You're never going to make everyone happy. 

I think it’s the experience of that big of a match and getting to see/meet the “celebrities” of our sport and…maybe win a buckle! There’s a HUGE difference in EOT and a state or regional match.. EOT is EOT and for that reason alone people want to go. I don’t know what the solution is… but there were a LOT of fired up SASS folks at this years event… and a lot were first timers. 

 

hugs!

Scarlett

[Cholla]

I think this is somehow my fault. I lived in Indiana for 26 years and there was never EOT there. I moved to AZ and live within 2.5 hours of Winter Range-- and they cancelled it. That's okay, EOT is just the next state over. Nope, they moved it to Indiana! I am seeing a trend here.

[Artemus Von Schutze]

Moving it around is interesting. I love the idea that Nationals is now fairly centralized in OKC. I can't see holding a match that should be as big as EoT with a 500 person limit again. We really didn't even include the Australians and Europeans which would have only made getting in even harder. If you are going to have it as an open match, it really needs to be able to handle more people. Otherwise, it's almost more fair to limit it to people who state/regional matches. 

 

I went to shoot Wild Bunch and it was a great match due to Serenity, Shell Stuffer and others, but I didn't get to shoot cowboy main match just because of this limit. I fully understand we did what we could with what we were given, but if we are taking the extra time to select ranges again the shooter capacity will have to be 750+ as others have said.

[Tequila Shooter]

I’ve haven’t had the privilege to attend WR or EOT yet but I’d like to.  Couple of questions to consider would Phoenix and OKC be willing to hold a major event every other year so the match could be moved?  Are there clubs that can accommodate the number of shooters and potential visitors and also have the infrastructure nearby?  A big range with hard working members is great but IMHO you’d need more, i.e. hotels, airport, restaurants, banquet facilities, etc.  Personally, I’d love to see somewhere in the NW and SE added,  such as a winter match in Phoenix one year then the next year the winter match is in the SE (say FL or GA or even South TX), the same thing with OKC and somewhere in the NW (say Montana or Wyoming for example). 

 

Just my dos centavos. 

[Sgt. Hochbauer, SASS #64409]

We attended EOT in 2014. It was a long drive coming from Central Pa. Fortunately we had family to visit on the way there and back. This year was a not so quick 10-12 hour drive. But was that made it like it was around the corner. I am not retired quite yet so time off is a determining factor of what big shoots we can attend. If it can be alternated that would be great...if not I would still try to make the trip out west and see the sights on the other side of the country.

It was a great match aside from the rain....Kudos to all that ran the match and who helped get the range ready.

 

Sgt Hochbauer