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If you carry a gun... EDITED 6/25


Utah Bob #35998

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There are lots of things to consider. This unfortunately is one.

Armed citizen who stepped in to help was tragically shot by police

 

EDIT 6/25  4:25 pm

 

Arvada police have just released this timeline information.

  • The suspect’s brother had called 911 saying his brother was going to do something crazy.
  • Shortly thereafter the suspect was involved in a disturbance in Old Town Arvada and Officer Gordon Beesley was the first officer to respond. As soon as he exited his vehicle he was fatally shot with a 12 ga shotgun.
  • The suspect then fired repeatedly into the air and then went to his truck, retrieved an AR and walked toward the square
  • Johnny Hurley heard the shots and rushed out of the army surplus store where he was shopping. He confronted the gunman fired his handgun and killed him
  • Then, Mr Hurley moved to the gunman and picked up the AR15.
  • At this point a second officer arrived and fired on Mr Hurley, fatally wounding him.
  • Most of the shooting was captured on security cameras

 

 

A bad day all around.

 

Mr Hurley saved lives but lost his own.

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There was a guy up in Dallas, several years ago, that was awakened by his wife, because she thought she heard someone just outside.

He got his revolver, and went out into his garage, and was shot and killed by the police. The police were there because they had a prowler call. BUT...Come to find out, the police went to the wrong residence!!! The police saw him, in his garage, saw his revolver, and thought he was the prowler. Oh, the garage was more of an attached car port, and faced the back of the house, so the police had to walk up his driveway, and go around the corner to see the inside of the garage/car port.

 

They did not identify themselves as police, so the wife said. They just saw the guy, saw he had a weapon, and opened fire.

 

Neither the man, nor the police, were minorities. No one was indicted for anything. 

Basically, the official response was: "oops".

 

Draw your own conclusions.

 

  

 

 

 

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A person in civvies, holding a gun, who is unknown to uniforms responding to an officer involved shooting with one officer down and the responding officers adrenalin spiking.

Very sad.

I can only imagine what the officer who fired the shots is going through right now.

A terrible tragedy all around.

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No body takes in consideration or ever cares about the officer responding to an armed burglar call. When he gets outside the house looking for the bad guy, the idiot homeowner shoots him through the window. Full uniform and called to the scene to help. Bad things happen by accident, the man wasn't charged, the cop luckily survived.

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The man did a courageous thing. He ran toward the gunfire He engaged the bad guy. Bless him.
But gunfight are complicated.

Part of a good ccw training should include scenarios like this.

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Howdy,

Maybe we should be buying bullet proof suits instead of guns.

What does a bullet proof car cost?

they are needed in chicago for sure.

Cops can say anyone is suspicious and its hard to define what that means.

Best

CR

 

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I recall in the CHL training I took in Oregon the instructor told us “When the police arrive your job is done. Unless you’re in an immediate threat situation put down your down, raise your hands and step away from the gun.”

I recall one gent asking if holstering was a better idea and out instructor said “No. Put your gun down on the ground and step away.”

He then went on to explain that when the police arrive they really have no idea who’s a good guy and who’s a bad guy. 
It made sense to me. 
 

I seem to recall similar instructions at a CCW class I had in North Carolina. 

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Wonder how often that happens with plain clothes policeman?

 

Reed and Malloy split up at the house. "You go around back, I'll take the front."

 

Reed hears a gunshot and runs around to the front, where he sees Malloy lying on the sidewalk bleeding, and Sergeant Joe Friday standing over him with a pistol in his hand. POW! Sergeant Friday DRT.

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That definitely needs to be a topic of discussion in carry classes.  I was taught the same as PR, gun on ground and step away.

 

When I got my LTC the hot topic was a recent incident where an active shooter was in a store and a good Samaritan had their weapon out and was maneuvering into a firing position when the bad guy's accomplice walked up behind the good guy and shot him in the back of the head. 

 

Good guy was so focused on the active shooter making the most noise he failed to notice that there was also bad girl and she got the drop on him.

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19 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

That definitely needs to be a topic of discussion in carry classes.  I was taught the same as PR, gun on ground and step away.

 

When I got my LTC the hot topic was a recent incident where an active shooter was in a store and a good Samaritan had their weapon out and was maneuvering into a firing position when the bad guy's accomplice walked up behind the good guy and shot him in the back of the head. 

 

Good guy was so focused on the active shooter making the most noise he failed to notice that there was also bad girl and she got the drop on him.

I recall that case. It was in a Walmart. Female shooter took out the Samaritan. Another tactical training point. Scan for threats. Don’t get tunnel vision. Easy to say. Not easy to do without training and practice.

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BTT

Edited 

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  • Utah Bob #35998 changed the title to If you carry a gun... EDITED 6/25

SD hit it on the head. If you carry, you need to be aware how  different events can turn out. Always be aware that LE will be  responding and how you will be perceived. This courageous gentleman lost his life in a tragic misunderstanding of who was who by LE 

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In the spirit of using this as a training tool (In other words, don't take this as me blaming him or anybody else).  What should the hero have done differently?  From what I see above, he didn't have time to put his gun down when the cop arrived.  However, he probably should not have picked up the AR.  Maybe just moved it away from the perp.  I'm sure that's what his thoughts were.  Get the gun away in case he was still alive, and to unload it for safety. 

 

Everyone is saying to put the gun down.  I always planned to reholster immediately before cops arrived if I was out in public.  The question about plain clothes police got me to thinking.  I don't remember if this was on cops or just in movies, but I recall seeing plain clothes officers with their guns drawn holding up their badges.  As a LTC holder, would it do any good to have your license out if you decide not to holster before cops show up?  Obviously they can't read the license but by the same token they can't tell if the off duty cops badge is real.  It might slow them down enough that you can put your gun down. 

 

I think it'd be a good add to LTC classes to do exercises where you have to deal with the cops after shooting someone in public. 

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If I've got time to dig my carry license out, I've got time to put my gun away.

 

I remember some show - not sure if it was TV or a movie - and the guy was not a cop, but he sounded like a cop to the uniformed cops. He had long hair and a big bushy mustache, and was wearing jeans and a flannel shirt and an M65 Field jacket. And after he leaves one of the uniforms turns to his buddy and complains about "those damn narcs need to let us know they're going to be here. He's lucky we didn't shoot him".

 

I remember some other cop show where the radio was telling the uniforms, "Undercovers on scene", so if they saw a scroungy guy carrying a gun they would not immediately assume he was a bad guy.

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If lessons are hopefully to be learned, it seems that picking up the rifle was a terrible mistake. The citizen with a holstered handgun standing by would be one thing, but an officer coming upon the scene of a murdered officer and a man standing right there with an AR is a whole different proposition.

 

I've thought often about the issue myself, but picking up a perp's rifle before or as the cops arive is not a scenario that had crossed my mind. 

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On 6/24/2021 at 9:22 PM, Utah Bob #35998 said:

 

Part of a good ccw training should include scenarios like this.

 

Amen, Bob, amen...

 

A couple of years ago I was taking an advanced defense course that included multiple live fire, force-on-force scenarios using Simunition. The most memorable scenario (for me) went like this:

 

You pull into a parking space at Wal-Mart (actually, my UTV on the range down at the barn!).  As you're exiting the vehicle, an unidentified armed figure appears from behind cover and races toward you from 15-20 yards...weapon pointed at you and yelling to "give me the car or I'll kill you".  As I'd reached for my sidearm when I heard the commotion, I drew and put two rounds center mass (the subject also fired but missed).  The subject dropped.  Almost immediately, another unidentified individual (also armed and yelling something about "gun") appeared from behind the same cover, running toward me with his weapon leveled.  Perceiving what I thought was a lethal threat, I put two rounds into the middle of the camo hoodie worn by assailant #2. 

 

Covering the area as best I could, I instructed a bystander to call 911 and get police and an ambulance coming to this address, then moved to disarm my two opponents.   When I got to #2, I saw the BADGE hanging from a chain around his neck...and MY heart stopped.  I know about auditory exclusion, but I SWEAR I didn't hear #2 identify himself as an officer.  With my mouth hanging open I turned to the instructor, still trying to make some sense out of what had just happened.  

 

The back story: Perp #1 was a wanted violent fugitive and was being chased on foot by an undercover officer (#2).  Perp figures to grab my car (killing me if he has to) and escape.  UC #2 in pursuit rounds the corner, sees his "man" down and runs toward me yelling for me to "put down the gun". AT NO TIME did he EVER identify himself as an officer and (except for the bouncing badge around his neck) wore nothing to indicate he was an officer.  In fact, he didn't look much different from Perp #1...must be that "undercover" thing, huh?

 

So here's the deal:  that shoot still haunts me a little to this day. Sure, it was just "training" and the "officer" didn't identify himself. Both are true statements...but if that HAD been real an innocent man would have lost his life and I would have taken it.

 

In his 1984 book, "Stressfire: Gunfighting for Police - Advanced Tactics and Techniques", Massad Ayoob dedicated the work to his father who taught him that "Power and responsibility are commensurate".  I couldn't agree more...

 

"Ad" 

     

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Excellent learning points.

This isn't the 1960-70's anymore. Yes police are taught the use of verbal commands. They are also taught the dangers of them as you can't always talk and shoot...meaning that in certain instances, giving verbal commands when you should be or could be engaging the threat has gotten police killed because changing gears from talking to shooting delays that response.

They learned that lesson over and over.

If the police get a shooting in progress call and they arrive to see a person (you) holding a firearm, they are going to focus on THAT.

Put it down, put it away, hands held high or well away from your body in as non-threatening manner as can be managed well before the officer is in a position to engage you. Off duty police are at high risk because they will act like police and simply don't always recognize that the badge dangling from the neck or a card holder clipped to a pocket or waved in a hand ISN'T GOING THE BE SEEN AS EASILY AS A FIREARM IN SOMEONES HAND(S).

This is why off duty police, undercovers and good citizens gep shot by responding officers.

 

Police training across the US isn't quite standardized but it is mostly sorta-kinda similar as to content and hours. More or less LOL. In AZ police get 585 hours of academy training. About two hundred or so hours is spent on firearms, law & legal related to that and tactics. Then they undergo two to six months of riding with a training officer THEN they have to complete their initial probation. Then they have to live or not screw up too badly to get eighty-sixed. In the 80's a class of 22 was considered on the large side. The average is there's ten to fifteen or more candidates for every one of those seats. Of my class of 22 less than a half dozen (including myself) made it to retirement.

 

Now, if you're expecting me to say that I think CCW carriers should meet those requirements....no. The standard is the standard and across the country the "standard" is somewhere's between eight and 16 hours. Or nothing in the case of Constitutional carry whith, as a matter of fact, I wholeheartedly SUPPORT.

 

But people need to take a certain amount of personal responsibility and that my friends, is pretty much out of our control except for us and our friends. At the range this week with the wife, bumped into an old buddy from the PD. He was "training" a friend of his wife's in the finer points of self defense. He was one of my students in instructor school back when so at least that nice lady is in good hands. We all do our part and this here is another.

 

 

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I took an active shooter course in FLETC.  Part of the training was that after neutralizing the bad guy, find yourself a position of cover, and holster/conceal/ground your firearm.  If there's time, call 911, identify yourself by race, sex and clothing, and your position.  Be prepared to do whatever the responding officers advise you to, immediately.

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5 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

In the spirit of using this as a training tool (In other words, don't take this as me blaming him or anybody else).  What should the hero have done differently?  From what I see above, he didn't have time to put his gun down when the cop arrived.  However, he probably should not have picked up the AR.  Maybe just moved it away from the perp.  I'm sure that's what his thoughts were.  Get the gun away in case he was still alive, and to unload it for safety. 

 

Everyone is saying to put the gun down.  I always planned to reholster immediately before cops arrived if I was out in public.  The question about plain clothes police got me to thinking.  I don't remember if this was on cops or just in movies, but I recall seeing plain clothes officers with their guns drawn holding up their badges.  As a LTC holder, would it do any good to have your license out if you decide not to holster before cops show up?  Obviously they can't read the license but by the same token they can't tell if the off duty cops badge is real.  It might slow them down enough that you can put your gun down. 

 

I think it'd be a good add to LTC classes to do exercises where you have to deal with the cops after shooting someone in public. 

I’m sure that was in his mind. Had I been in his position, I cannot say I would have done different.

But things happen in fractions of seconds. The timing was tragic. One heroic citizen dead, one officer dead, one officer who will have to relive the day forever. 

 

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