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44-40 reloading (maybe a stupid newbie question)


Ambush Andy

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Hey all, I have been reloading my bp 44-40 rounds for 5 months or so now, and started having a lot of problems with my rifles not chambering smoothly, even jamming, and in one case even led to a oob on my 66 (which led me to get a 73).  I thought it was my rifle, but when I started having the same issue with my new to me 73, I started chamber checking my rounds, and realized about 25% of them are not sizing right, won't go in the chamber checker without a lot of force,  and in a couple instance at all.  (Yes, I realize I should have been checking all along, I'm learning slowly :) )   I use a lee loadmaster and lee dies, including the sizer.  Isn't that the role of the sizer?  Should I switch to a different die, and is there anything I can do for already loaded ammo that isn't passing, short of deconstructing?  

 

Sorry if this is a dumb question.

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9 minutes ago, Ambush Andy said:

Hey all, I have been reloading my bp 44-40 rounds for 5 months or so now, and started having a lot of problems with my rifles not chambering smoothly, even jamming, and in one case even led to a oob on my 66 (which led me to get a 73).  I thought it was my rifle, but when I started having the same issue with my new to me 73, I started chamber checking my rounds, and realized about 25% of them are not sizing right, won't go in the chamber checker without a lot of force,  and in a couple instance at all.  (Yes, I realize I should have been checking all along, I'm learning slowly :) )   I use a lee loadmaster and lee dies, including the sizer.  Isn't that the role of the sizer?  Should I switch to a different die, and is there anything I can do for already loaded ammo that isn't passing, short of deconstructing?  

 

Sorry if this is a dumb question.

 

If you are resizing your cases then that is probably not the problem.

However, aside from what you describe, what diameter bullets are you using and what seating/crimp method are you using? It almost sounds like larger diameter bullets and or the crimp is causing a slight bulge below the roll crimp

Or...the bullet is seating at an angle causing a slight bulge on one side of the neck.

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading

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I use the factory lee crimp, I have used a couple bullets, both the same result, but mainly the big lube toggle 44 428 I get from Chytes.  I didn't have the problem for a few matches, and started off with new starline brass. 

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I was going to say a similar thing.  It could be bullet seating and/or crimping is causing the cases to bulge.  If the cases haven't been trimmed to nearly the exact same length, then if the seating/crimp was set to one of the shorter cases, the longer ones would tend to bulge.  Since you only get that in about 25% of the cases I'd look at that.

 

The only thing I can think of that might be caused by the sizing die is if the die is set too deeply in the press it could bulge right at the shoulder.  The 44-40 shoulder is very subtle, and I haven't loaded the 44-40, but I've had that problem a couple times on my 270 Win or 260 REM, 

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I was typing when you mentioned using the Lee Factory Crimp.  Since the 44-40 is a bottleneck case, I'm not sure if the Lee Factory Crimp will remove all bulges like it does on straight wall cases.  It might, I just don't know since I haven't examined that particular die.  But I love the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die on my 45 Colt.

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7 minutes ago, Ambush Andy said:

So this would mean I'm seating too deeply on some of the out of length cases and should reset the seating die?

A longer case will crimp more than a shorter one, possible leading to crimp bulge. Measure a bunch of sized cases for overall length. Set aside any of the longest ones. You may have to trim them. 

Over crimp is common and easy to do on the thin necked cases like .44-40.

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16 minutes ago, Diamond Jake said:

I was typing when you mentioned using the Lee Factory Crimp.  Since the 44-40 is a bottleneck case, I'm not sure if the Lee Factory Crimp will remove all bulges like it does on straight wall cases.  It might, I just don't know since I haven't examined that particular die.  But I love the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die on my 45 Colt.

 

It doesn't resize or take out any crimping bulge in my experience.  I couldn't even get it to close enough to crimp.  

 

My cure was to take about a 1/16" off the bottom of the sizing die.  Sawmill Mary's Smoke Wagons in 44WCF have the tightest chambers. 428 bullet diameter.  I check every round to see that they fall all the way in and fall all the way out under gravity only.   If they pass this test, they will work in any of our guns.

 

 

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I don't really load 44-40, but I do know that the cases are generally rather thin and that they can be easy to bulge, etc.  Sizing is generally done in the first station along with spent primer extraction and there's plenty of opportunity after that to bulge a case.  I don't know of anyway to safely resize a loaded round, although the Lee Factory crimp die is about as close as you can get and well worth the price.  Anyway, it sounds like maybe the cases are getting squashed or bulged during one of the loading stations (most probably during bullet seating or crimping).  Also if loading BP, maybe your trying to compress the load too much and that's causing the cases to bulge.  Frankly, it's a really good move to check them once loaded with either a case gauge or by chambering them in the rifle (just be very careful if you do so in the rifle to prevent a misfire).  A 44-40 case gauge would be a really good investment for you!  All in all, I guess I'd check the adjustment of both the bullet seating and crimping dies (could be done with only one die, but I would highly recommend separating these two functions if possible).  After that maybe reduce the BP charge enough to fill the case just slightly above where the bullet base will seat and only slightly compress the powder when seating the bullet.  Also don't over crimp and you should be fine.  It's your call, but I'm not sure I'd load BP rounds on a progressive press and if I did, I'd be hand dipping the powder rather than using the auto-powder measure.  Possibly overkill, as I know that others ignore the warnings about static using a non-BP rated powder measure, but I wouldn't risk it as BP is a true explosive where smokeless needs to build pressure to burn properly and explode.  In any case, I hope you work things out!  44-40 is an authentic cartridge and a lot of fun in BP loads.  Good luck and good shooting to all.      

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2 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

 

It doesn't resize or take out any crimping bulge in my experience.  I couldn't even get it to close enough to crimp.  

 

My cure was to take about a 1/16" off the bottom of the sizing die.  Sawmill Mary's Smoke Wagons in 44WCF have the tightest chambers. 428 bullet diameter.  I check every round to see that they fall all the way in and fall all the way out under gravity only.   If they pass this test, they will work in any of our guns.

 

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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Are you using these in more then 1 gun? Sometimes 44-40 chambers don't have as defined a shoulder and blow the shoulder out almost straight. Then it gets even worse because some resize dies don't have the right angle on the shoulder to iron this back enough to chamber in proper 44-40 chambers. Mike Venturino had a good write up on this years ago. If you have time try segregating a few cases to the gun that fired them and see if that helps then you'll know if you need a different sizer die. Hope this helps

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Here is what I answered to another new pard that was having trouble with loading. Again, I don't know if this is your problem. But at this point what you want to do is to be sure that each step of loading is correct. The Warden gave some good advice about removing some material off the bottom of the sizing die to push the shoulder back further. Although I've never heard of this being an issue with rifle rounds, only pistol. Also, since this is the second rifle with the same issue I don't think the problem is going to lie in the gun, but somewhere in your reloading procedure.

 

I'll also be presumptuous here and walk you through the adjustment of the seating/crimping die. I don't know what sort of press you are using. But as soon as I got my 550 I began seating and crimping in two different steps. But if using the one die this is the procedure. First, make sure that all of your brass is more or less the same length. If it is new or came from cowboys it's a pretty good bet that's not the problem. When you adjust the die first back it out several turns from the press. Then began turning just the center bullet seating portion down. Keep doing this and running the brass/bullet in the press until you have a cartridge that fits your OA length requirements. Conveniently this will usually be lined up with the crimp groove in the bullet itself. When you have that adjustment, back the center portion out a good bit and begin taking the die body down to establish a crimp. You just want to start to see a inward roll of the top lip of the brass. Don't go down so much that you begin to buckle the case. When you have established this then lock the die body down in the press. They make replacement rings for dies that have a locking set screw so adjustments won't move should you remove the die from the press. Then with the ram of the press in the fully up position screw the center bullet seating stem back down until it touches the nose of the bullet you just crimped, you'll feel when it touches. Lower the ram and go just a squinch (that's a technical term) further, maybe 1/16th to 1/32 of a turn on the center stem, lock it down. These adjustments should never need to be moved unless you change bullet design/profile or start loading say 45 Cowboy or Schofield. Clean the die occasionally as you will get a build up of bullet lube and lead shavings accumulate in the center portion. Again, I apologize for assuming you are new to loading and you might have been doing it since you were a toddler. One just never knows the knowledge of another person and many feel sheepish about asking for help. "The only stupid question is the one you don't ask"

 

38 Special Crimp Style_zpsr3wpaltx.jpg

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Consistent loads start with consistent components.  Cases all the same size ; powder the same height ; same bullet (length, diameter) ; dies set to those components .  A change in the components require a check and possibly change to the dies. 

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Have you thoroughly cleaned the chamber?   Brushed from chamber end with brush, etc? 

 

I bought a used Winchester Miroku 73.  Hard crud came out of the chamber the thickness of a finger nail.  I'm guessing from cleaning from the muzzle.  

 

I used a brass bottle brush from Harbor Freight and bent it about 60° so I could get to the chamber.  

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I was a commercial reloader for cas shooters.

From winter to summer, I would need to readjust the dies due to expanding and contracting from the temperature.

 

2008 I wrote an article to address these problems with 44-40 and other bottle neck cartridges.

It is the last article on the page.

======================

http://www.cliffhangershideout.com/gazette/2008/sep08.html

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I had a similar problem with my .44-40's and .32-20's not chambering.   At the time I was use a Lee 3 die set, seating and crimping with the seater/crimp die.

Long story short, I stopped trying to both at once.  Since I started just seating the bullets with the seating/crimp die, and then crimping with a Lee Factory Crimp Die, the problem has gone away.

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AA the 44-40 is one of those cartridges that cause different folks different issues and you are getting lots of good advice here.  The cartridge can be finicky and can present different issues with different dies and components so you have to be "step by step" precise on what and how you load.  My experience with the 44-40 includes using RCBS "cowboy" dies and a setup for my Square Deal.  One of the issues common to both is over crimping as Goody pointed out, regardless bullet diameter.  This is real real real, let me say that again, real thin brass and can be mangled easily causing shoulders to collapse, bulges to form and other no bueno things to happen that will make guns stop up like a 9mm with a 380 thrown in.

 

Slow down, check each step from resizing forward, make sure your bullets arent oversized for the particular chambers you are shooting.  Your six gun cylinders popped out of the guns make handy chamber checkers, a chamber casting may also be in order.  As a matter of course I'd slug the bbl of each gun as well, might as well have all info on hand, right?

 

 

 

 

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On thing about 44-40 brass is that if the case mouth is deformed the dies will not straighten it out. You have to do it by hand with a pair of round nose pliers.

 

I can take a moderately deformed 38 or 357 case and between the sizing and belling die it will be restored enough such that irt will accept a bullet without the case wrinkling. this is not true for 44-40 cases. If they have any deformation of the case mouth you have to fix it by hand. Failure to do so will result in the case deforming when trying to seat the bullet.

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54 minutes ago, Cliff Hanger #3720LR said:

2008 I wrote an article to address these problems with 44-40 and other bottle neck cartridges.

It is the last article on the page.

======================

http://www.cliffhangershideout.com/gazette/2008/sep08.html

So if I use this method and set up the last stage as described with sizer without deprimer, is it safe to also use with the loaded ammo I have to "fix" them?

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For 18 years I ran Dillon 650 presses and this setup was for all bottle neck cartridges.

 

Using Lee dies on the Dillon did require shortening the sizing dies about 1/8" to get the shoulder to go down to cartridge specs.

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Only going to say this - Redding Profile Crimp Die.   Lee Factory Crimp Die in .44-40 is not in the same league as the Redding die.  It will fix the bulging of the case neck right below the crimp better than any other technique I've found.

 

I certainly do not run loaded rounds back into the conventional sizer die.  Smashes the neck way down under size, and the bullet with it.

 

good luck, GJ

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If you are using the Lee powder thru style die to expand I'd get rid of that and replace it with an RCBS one.  I personally use an RCBS one with an expander plug from a 44mag die set.  Seeing as you have the Lee factory crimp die make sure your seater die is backed off far enough so that it is truly only seating the bullet, let the crimp die do all of the crimping.  I'd also double check your sizer die to make sure the shell holder is coming into contact with it and even slightly camming over as per Lee's instructions.

 

 

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Ambush Andy,

Here is an example of a bulge just below the crimp. This can be cause by a few reasons. I suggest loading a cartridge WITHOUT crimping and see if it chambers. If id does, crimp it and try it again.

There are many ways to skin the 44-40 cat, just trying to help you skin it with the tools you have.

 

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I also found that the Redding Profile Crimp die eliminated my occasional problem cartridge. But I have been diligent in loading only Starline and Winchester brass., as they seem to cut them all to the same length. When I find other brands mixed in I give them away.  And I load on a 550, have for 15 years, and no problems yet.

   I do have a cartridge checker, it is a cylinder that is tighter than any of my guns, so if it fits that it fits everything.

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14 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

I also found that the Redding Profile Crimp die eliminated my occasional problem cartridge. But I have been diligent in loading only Starline and Winchester brass., as they seem to cut them all to the same length. When I find other brands mixed in I give them away.  And I load on a 550, have for 15 years, and no problems yet.

   I do have a cartridge checker, it is a cylinder that is tighter than any of my guns, so if it fits that it fits everything.

 

Since the Redding Profile die has been mentioned a few times...if the crimp bulge is the culprit...I am a firm believer in this die.
Here is a little something wrote up about it and the 44-40.
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/redding-profile-crimp-die 

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13 minutes ago, July Smith said:

If you are using the Lee powder thru style die to expand I'd get rid of that and replace it with an RCBS one.  I personally use an RCBS one with an expander plug from a 44mag die set.  Seeing as you have the Lee factory crimp die make sure your seater die is backed off far enough so that it is truly only seating the bullet, let the crimp die do all of the crimping.  I'd also double check your sizer die to make sure the shell holder is coming into contact with it and even slightly camming over as per Lee's instructions.

 

 

I have to agree with you, July.  I have been reloading .44-40 for decades now, using RCBS dies...the regular one, not the "Cowboy" dies. I use Winchester brass exclusively.  I generally use .430" diameter bullets, and for that diameter, I use a .44 Magnum expander plug.  The die sets I have allow the decapping pin/expander plug to be removed and are interchangeable.  I got two pair of the plug locking lugs, one for each of the different plugs.  If I want to use the smaller diameter plug (for some older Colt's and Winchesters that use .428" bullets, I simply unscrew the .44 Magnum plug and insert the .44-40 plug into the die body.  The double locking lugs on the plugs allow me to retain the adjustments. on both plugs. (This is on the plug bodies, not the dies body itself...that only uses the single locking ring.) The expander plugs are adjusted to flare the case mouth just enough so that the bullet will seat without scraping the side of the bullet.

 

I use the seating/crimping die, adjusted to provide just enough roll crimp into the crimp groove of the bullet so that the case mouth just behind the crimp does NOT bulge the side of the case. 

These procedures have served me well, and I recommend the RCBS dies, even though they may be quite a bit more expensive nowadays than when I bought them.

Best of luck, and stay well and safe, Pard!

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Much good advice has already been given.  I was shooting .44-40 in a 1873, Marlin 1894, and a Pedersoli Lightning.  I had trouble finding a .44-40 load that would chamber and function in all three rifles.  The Lightning was the most picky about chambering rounds. 

 

Both Chase Randall, Garrison Joe and others have mentioned the Redding Profile Die;  that was a big key to the puzzle for me.  The second was going to a .427 diameter bullet.  My Pedersoli liked that diameter the best and it functioned just fine in the other two rifles.  I had several boxes of .430 diameter bullets that weren't working so I bought a .427 Lee Breech Lock Bullet Sizer & Punch for $11.50.  Yes, it was more work, but I'm cheap/frugal.  

 

Most of my .44-40 brass is Starline, but I have also run some Winchester without issue.  I also chamber check everything I use in a match.  

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1 hour ago, July Smith said:

If you are using the Lee powder thru style die to expand I'd get rid of that and replace it with an RCBS one. 

 

 

 

Huh...

The powder through the expander die is my favorite feature of the Lee dies.   That's why I buy them for new calibers instead of RCBS.  (Well, they are less expensive too, but that's a bonus.)

I have even obtained a couple of powder through the expander dies and dropped 'em into my RCBS sets.   I think it's a great feature.  Yes, I have it in .44-40 and .32-20.   Also in .30 Mauser, .30 Tokarov, and .30 Luger.   All bottlenecked cases.   Wish they'd add the feature to their rifle dies.

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5 hours ago, Ambush Andy said:

Hey all, I have been reloading my bp 44-40 rounds for 5 months or so now, and started having a lot of problems with my rifles not chambering smoothly, even jamming, and in one case even led to a oob on my 66 (which led me to get a 73).  I thought it was my rifle, but when I started having the same issue with my new to me 73, I started chamber checking my rounds, and realized about 25% of them are not sizing right, won't go in the chamber checker without a lot of force,  and in a couple instance at all.  (Yes, I realize I should have been checking all along, I'm learning slowly :) )   I use a lee loadmaster and lee dies, including the sizer.  Isn't that the role of the sizer?  Should I switch to a different die, and is there anything I can do for already loaded ammo that isn't passing, short of deconstructing?  

 

Sorry if this is a dumb question.

Andy, I have had a problem very similar to what you have described.  The solution in my case was to adjust the sizing/decapping die to set the shoulder back a little farther.  I didn't have any problems with my cartridges for about a year, due to the fact that I started out with new brass that hadn't been fireformed to my chambers yet.  When I loaded these "once fired" cases, about 20% wouldn't chamber in one of my revolvers without a little extra push, and a few wouldn't chamber at all.  The problem disappeared after I adjusted the sizing die to just kiss the shellholder at full stroke, as other have mentioned.

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What diameter bullets are your using?

 

Have you verified that the bullets you are using are correctly sized? I have received bullets that were not sized to the diameter I ordered more than once. Even the most reputable caster makes a mistake once in a while. For me the caster made good on the issue.

 

I have a Marlin, Uberti 66 and Uberti 1860 all in 44-40. All three rifles slug out to 0.429 vice 0.427. To prevent leading I have switched to using bullets sized to 0.430. Using oversized bullets means that my 44-40 crimp die doesn't do a good job. I have been using a Lee FCD which doesn't have any issues crimping the larger diameter bullets.  However this has added an extra step to my reloading as I reload on a SDB so I have to run each cartridge through my Lee APP press for crimping.

 

I bought a 44 spcl/44 mag crimp die and modified it with a hone so that it will accommodate 44-40 cartridges. I hope to test it out in the next few weeks.

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