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1873 winchester help!


Doc Moses

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I have an 1873 problem. I picked up an Uberti 1873 project gun and I am stumped.  About every 4th or 5th time I cycle the action the lever gets stuck because the lofter did not go all the way down so the bolt hits the lifter. I have messed with the stock leaf springs and gotten no change.  When the lifter is down it will slip up a quarter inch or so and block the bolt with almost no pressure. Is that normal?  Also, to me the lever has to much wiggle in it. I have a 92 and have had some 22 lever but this is my 1st 73. It was made in 2008 and I knew it had issues when I bought it but it sounded fun...it is probably an easy fix but I am a music teacher by trade so...I can fix your sax, guitar or violin but serious gunsmithing?  Thanks for your help and suggestions. 

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Howdy Doc.  You said you messed with the leaf springs, but is sounds like the carrier spring is not tight enough, either loose or weak, or the little angled end to it is not riding on the cam of the lifter arm.  Is it more likely to happen levering slow vs. fast?

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1 hour ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

Could also be that the lifter cam is worn down.  Happens especially fast on unmodified guns.

Although I agree with Abilene in his above post that one of the things he touches on is most likely the problem, I have to say that lifter cams wearing down is the biggest failure I’ve seen with the 73’s in my entire cowboy shooting venture. The lifter cams can’t hold up to the hardness of the spring steel riding over them constantly. Eventually the rifle will go out of time. I used to send rifles back to the smith to have them retimed. Now I just keep an extra lifter arm handy and swap them out. So far this has only required minor fitting of the new arm. In order to do this, I’ve found you need to know the kit or parts your smith used to build the rifle with in the beginning. Makes them much easier to time. 

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Slow but happens at either speed. I am planning to order new springs but wanted to get some ideas b4 throwing oarts at it!   I will look at the lifter cam to see what it looks like  I think I saw a video that showed what the cam is supposed 2 look like. 

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Doc,

 

You don't state if this 73 has had any work such as short stroke being installed.  That could make a real difference in diagnosing your problem.

 

Honestly, the best course of action, because you are new to this design of rifle, is to have it looked at by a competent cowboy gunsmith, or very knowledgeable fellow cowboy shooter.  It could be something, as previously mentioned, as simple as a carrier spring or a worn carrier that needs replacing, but it could be another problem that would be hard to determine without real knowledge of these guns.  Fortunately, for me, my cowboy gunsmith is also a close friend and gladly is always teaching me about the nuances of these rifles.  He will take a quick look at my rifles (for free) and sometimes just recommend a simple replacement of a part that I can handle, or schedule a "surgery" that is beyond my abilities.

 

There are a number of good YouTube videos that could help educate you on these rifles.  I've attached a link to one I've used in the past.  It's about installing a short stroke kit in an 1866 rifle (same internals as a 73).  At 11:50 on this video is a great section on the timing of these rifles which might find informative.

 

PGW Short stroke kit installation video - YouTube

 

Good luck with your project and keep us updated.

 

 

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The two biggest Mechanical contributors to your problem are the Lever Side Springs and the relationship of the Lever ledge and the bottom of the Carrier Block Arm.  Next item up for bids is Gun Gas Fouling of the front face of the Carrier Block, the carrier block Mortice and Barrel Breach.

 

Your didn't mention caliber nor whether the Side Springs were actual OEM springs. Once the lever first contacts the Carrier Block, the only thing powering the block "down" is the Carrier Arm Spring.  That spring is also the only thing holding the Arm/Block down. You may find the solution to the problem with an OEM rifle is to add "Positive Slam Down" of the Carrier Block Arm.

 

 

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The rifle history would be helpful.  Short stroke kits usually include a modified lifter.  If your rifle was previously short-stroked, but later a kitchen table gunsmith replaced the lifter with a stock part,  that could be the problem.  It really sounds like something is mismatched, or very worn, as previously stated.   You can try replacing and refitting the springs first (cheapest).  If that doesn't correct it, try a new lifter.  If that fails, a new short stroke kit should fix it, regardless of cause.  

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15 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

The rifle history would be helpful.  Short stroke kits usually include a modified lifter.  If your rifle was previously short-stroked, but later a kitchen table gunsmith replaced the lifter with a stock part,  that could be the problem.  It really sounds like something is mismatched, or very worn, as previously stated.   You can try replacing and refitting the springs first (cheapest).  If that doesn't correct it, try a new lifter.  If that fails, a new short stroke kit should fix it, regardless of cause.  

The first thing to do is look at the cams...assuming the cam spring is tight.

 

Really doubt that someone would have just replaced the lifter...cuz there's a good change the rifle would never have functioned correctly...and replacing the whole SS Kit???? Reeeallly???? Never heard that one before. 

 

Phantom

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48 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

The first thing to do is look at the cams...assuming the cam spring is tight.

 

Really doubt that someone would have just replaced the lifter...cuz there's a good change the rifle would never have functioned correctly...and replacing the whole SS Kit???? Reeeallly???? Never heard that one before. 

 

Phantom

If the parts became mismatched, replacing the ss kit could end up to be the easiest solution; the other fixes failing.  

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5 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

If the parts became mismatched, replacing the ss kit could end up to be the easiest solution; the other fixes failing.  

If the parts were "mismatched", the rifle probably would have never worked...

 

Throwing away a good set of links is silly.

 

Phantom

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7 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

If the parts were "mismatched", the rifle probably would have never worked...

 

Throwing away a good set of links is silly.

 

Phantom

I agree that if parts were mismatched, it should not work at all -- and rechecking the OP, it sounds like the problem occurred intermittantly.  

 

Silly or not, a new set of ss links would very likely solve the OP's problem and get the gun shooting properly.  Expensive? Yes, but ss kits are coming down in price, and it would deal with all of the cam wear and other problems described here.   (Note that I did list it as a last option. )

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13 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I agree that if parts were mismatched, it should not work at all -- and rechecking the OP, it sounds like the problem occurred intermittantly.  

 

Silly or not, a new set of ss links would very likely solve the OP's problem and get the gun shooting properly.  Expensive? Yes, but ss kits are coming down in price, and it would deal with all of the cam wear and other problems described here.   (Note that I did list it as a last option. )

And so would buying a new gun...

 

I give...

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14 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

And so would buying a new gun...

 

I give...

Not saying you are wrong.  For sure I agree there are cheaper things to try first. 

But I recently saw ss kits advertised <$300.   Compared to $1200-$1500 for a new gun, that might be a viable option.   It just depends on the skills and patience a person has to deal with a littany of errant parts, not to mention the present cost of ammo for repetitive test and  confirmation firing.  And an updated ss kit would also probably speed up the gun, depending what's in it now.

Just saying.  

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Not saying you are wrong.  For sure I agree there are cheaper things to try first. 

But I recently saw ss kits advertised <$300.   Compared to $1200-$1500 for a new gun, that might be a viable option.   It just depends on the skills and patience a person has to deal with a littany of errant parts, not to mention the present cost of ammo for repetitive test and  confirmation firing.  And an updated ss kit would also probably speed up the gun, depending what's in it now.

Just saying.  

 

 

 

 

I don't even know what to say... How much practical experience do you have shooting 73's in this game?

 

Phantom

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The problem is clearly the flange nut on the kerpuffel is torqued to the wrong specs.  It should be precisely 17.5948349 kilo newtons.  .0000001 more or less can indeed cause a littany of errant parts.

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2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I don't even know what to say... How much practical experience do you have shooting 73's in this game?

 

Phantom

If it is relevant, I think I started in 2015.  Since then probably ca 20,000 rounds through my 73 rifle, counting matches, practice, and test firing.   Same # for my wife's rifle.   

 

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3 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

The problem is clearly the flange nut on the kerpuffel is torqued to the wrong specs.  It should be precisely 17.5948349 kilo newtons.  .0000001 more or less can indeed cause a littany of errant parts.

 

Since my torque wrench is an older model, could you translate that to furlongs per fortnight?

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13 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

If it is relevant, I think I started in 2015.  Since then probably ca 20,000 rounds through my 73 rifle, counting matches, practice, and test firing.   Same # for my wife's rifle.   

 

It's relevant for letting folks that are new to this issue to know the practical experiences of those that offer advise.

 

I think it totally irresponsible to tell folks that if a lifter is worn, that ditching the whole SS kit and buying a new one is a reasonable option. Now if the "kit" is totally bastardized, then fine...but for a lifter???

 

The comment that up-dating the SS kit would "Probably" make the rifle faster...right..do you know how many World and National Champions shoot the old 3rd Gen kits? 

 

Folks, don't take my word for it...for you probably don't know me and you have NO WAY of knowing if I'm truly knowledgeable on this subject. PLEASE pay attention to those that have the credentials to intelligently speak on these subjects. There are many on the Wire...knowing who they are will pay dividends in the long run.

 

Phantom

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12 hours ago, Doc Moses said:

I have an 1873 problem. I picked up an Uberti 1873 project gun and I am stumped.  About every 4th or 5th time I cycle the action the lever gets stuck because the lofter did not go all the way down so the bolt hits the lifter. I have messed with the stock leaf springs and gotten no change.  When the lifter is down it will slip up a quarter inch or so and block the bolt with almost no pressure. Is that normal?  Also, to me the lever has to much wiggle in it. I have a 92 and have had some 22 lever but this is my 1st 73. It was made in 2008 and I knew it had issues when I bought it but it sounded fun...it is probably an easy fix but I am a music teacher by trade so...I can fix your sax, guitar or violin but serious gunsmithing?  Thanks for your help and suggestions. 

 

This gent is approx. 2 hrs away from you, but you'll probably run into him at a match.  He can diagnose and fix your problem:

Boomstick Jay, Jason Widmer, Boomstick Arms Co LLC, Leonard, TX 254-368-4540

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The OP says he knew the rifle had issues when he acquired so it’s quite possible that it’s got nothing to do with the lifter arm itself but the rifle may have a partially bent lever from an OOB discharge which mimics a worn/ damaged lifter arm.
OP says it’s his 1st 73, so he’s doesn’t have another for a baseline comparison 
OOBs definitely can wreck the timing if it even bent a little. :mellow:

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3 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Phantom

 

Now to completely turn this thread sideways...   I forgot to wish Phantom a Happy Birthday yestiday!!

Happy Birthday, Phantom!!  

 

(time for some Chok-lit cake!)

 

download.thumb.jpg.d18b00ad57dec2edb2dc958abec6ac0d.jpg

 

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4 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

It's relevant for letting folks that are new to this issue to know the practical experiences of those that offer advise.

 

I think it totally irresponsible to tell folks that if a lifter is worn, that ditching the whole SS kit and buying a new one is a reasonable option. Now if the "kit" is totally bastardized, then fine...but for a lifter???

 

The comment that up-dating the SS kit would "Probably" make the rifle faster...right..do you know how many World and National Champions shoot the old 3rd Gen kits? 

 

Folks, don't take my word for it...for you probably don't know me and you have NO WAY of knowing if I'm truly knowledgeable on this subject. PLEASE pay attention to those that have the credentials to intelligently speak on these subjects. There are many on the Wire...knowing who they are will pay dividends in the long run.

 

Phantom

Sorry if you feel I made irresponsible statements here.  I suggest you go back and re-read what I actually first posted.  I said:

 

"It really sounds like something is mismatched, or very worn, as previously stated.   You can try replacing and refitting the springs first (cheapest).  If that doesn't correct it, try a new lifter.  If that fails, a new short stroke kit should fix it, regardless of cause. " 

 

It sure seems like we agree.  I don't really see how the above differs materially from what you and others recommended.   Nobody recommended buying a ss kit unless and until the other fixes have failed. 

 

But if the lifter fix doesn't get the gun working, what then?  Give up on the gun?  At that point, buying a SS kit would become a realistic option, which might be cheaper than paying and waiting for a gunsmith to work through the problem (And possibly installing a SS kit).

 

And the OP made no indication that the rifle has a SS kit of any description installed.  If not, then the addition of any generation SS kit would likely fix the existing problem and make the gun operate faster.  

 

(And BTW, I'm shooting a  Gen 3 that I bought from Jim Bowie five years ago, It is plenty fast and smooth.  I have no reason to think a later generation kit would improve my times enough to warrant the added cost.  From your comment, it sounds like a number of champion shooters agree with that.  

 

 

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4 hours ago, McCandless said:

 

Now to completely turn this thread sideways...   I forgot to wish Phantom a Happy Birthday yestiday!!

Happy Birthday, Phantom!!  

 

(time for some Chok-lit cake!)

 

download.thumb.jpg.d18b00ad57dec2edb2dc958abec6ac0d.jpg

 

I wished him one, but didn't get a thank you note. Rude. But now that I think about it I wished him that on Facebook. It's very possible he's in Facebook jail again. So here, Happy Birthday!

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22 minutes ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

I wished him one, but didn't get a thank you note. Rude. But now that I think about it I wished him that on Facebook. It's very possible he's in Facebook jail again. So here, Happy Birthday!

Sorry...I don't really do a lot of FB...don't do any on my computer.

 

But...Thanks for the BDay wishes Goody!!!!!

 

:D

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Thanks 4 all the advice.  It gave me things 2 consider BEFORE I spent money. When I took it apart the lifter arm and all seemed fine. I ordered some springs. If that does not do the trick I will cut my losses and take it to a smith. I was probably going 2 do that eventually anyway but thought I would make better decsions on what to have the smith do if I had shot it for a few months.

Again, thank you all very much. If the springs fix it I will post, otherwise it's off to the rifle Doc!

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4 minutes ago, Doc Moses said:

Thanks 4 all the advice.  It gave me things 2 consider BEFORE I spent money. When I took it apart the lifter arm and all seemed fine. I ordered some springs. If that does not do the trick I will cut my losses and take it to a smith. I was probably going 2 do that eventually anyway but thought I would make better decsions on what to have the smith do if I had shot it for a few months.

Again, thank you all very much. If the springs fix it I will post, otherwise it's off to the rifle Doc!

Some very good Smith recommendations were posted above.  Best of luck to you.  Hope to see you shooting that rifle soon.  

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Alao to answer questions above: the 73 is chambered for 357 and I got it used and do not THINK it has a short stroke kit in it, but without a stock rifle to compare it too I cannot be positive.  Frustrating but honestly a lot of fun!  At keast until it starts costing me more money!

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As someone already pointed out there is a fine gunsmith in Leonard, up around McKinney. Boomstick Jay could diagnose and fix your problem I'm certain. Also around Fort worth is Lefty Wheeler. He, too, could fix it for you. Contact either and see what shoot they are going to be at. Much cheaper to drive  couple hundred miles and get your gun fixed that day probably than to ship and be without for several weeks. Probably educational as well.

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One last question:  is you carrier brass/bronze or aluminum alloy?  Several folks I know have had to go back to brass carriers, to get their action to operate properly.  Some guns apparently just don't like the aluminum alloy ones.   My understanding is that in some guns, the lightweight carriers don't have enough mass to stabilize them. 

It sounds like your problem is caused by just a small offset in carrier position, so this might be something to consider.   If dogooder is looking on from EOT, possibly he can add some info.  He's done a lot of carrier experimentation with different metals.  This is just a thought to consider.  

 

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From all the discussion, it sounds to me like the links (short stroke or not) are fine and the carrier is fine.  The problem is that the lifter spring is not properly working on the lifter cam to push the lifter arm down, most likely due to wear or improper fit.

 

To repair this, look at the bearing surfaces of the spring and the cam to see which one or both are worn.  With the side plates off and the carrier block removed, work the action and observe the way the spring works to hold the lifter arm both up and down.  It should be positive in both directions.  If there is significant wear, particularly asymmetrical wear on either part, that part should be replaced.  I would first replace the spring but if both parts show wear, replace both.

 

Before replacing the lifter arm, you must determine if you have a short stroke action.  Look at the lever with the action open to the widest point.  If it is 90 degrees or more, no short stroke.  Less than 90 degrees, you have some version of a short stroke.  If no SS you can use a stock lifter arm for replacement.  If it is short stroked, you have to match the lifter a m with the specific type and make of SS, Most likely requiring services of a gunsmith.

 

If your gun is bone-stock, you may be able to just replace the spring and lifter arm without modification.  But even then, have an experienced person, preferably a “cowboy” gunsmith, check the timing.  If using a stock lifter spring, pur a thin piece of leather under the spring to reduce the spring tension and reduce wear on the cam.

 

The gun does not have a positive “slam down”.  This is a built up portion of either the lifter arm or the lever to make the force of the lever closing mechanically make the carrier block go all the way to the bottom.  This is a worthwhile addition if you are using the gun for competition.

 

Except for the slam down, this work is easy, but does require a good understanding of the way the gun is supposed to function.

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On 6/20/2021 at 4:53 PM, Howdy Pardner said:

I have sent you a pm.

    howdypardner

I haven’t received a pm.  I’ll be glad to answer it if I do.

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