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WTC Calling a miss or a "P" on yourself


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3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

If the last round went bang...and was on the correct target to finish the string...????

 

Explain what you're saying please.

 

Phantom

I don’t know where the P was. Nobody can point it out. Round left in pistol is scored as a miss.  As you know, fast shooters, especially on round count stages, can be tough. Lots of cases where the last round winds up on correct target, yet still a round left in pistol. I’ve never seen that called a P (unless P had already been called) 

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27 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I don’t know where the P was. Nobody can point it out. Round left in pistol is scored as a miss.  As you know, fast shooters, especially on round count stages, can be tough. Lots of cases where the last round winds up on correct target, yet still a round left in pistol. I’ve never seen that called a P (unless P had already been called) 

Tell me how there is not a "P" when:

 

1. The last shot from the pistol was on the correct target and the last target was engaged the correct amount of times.

2. There was a live round in a Pistol

3. The Pistol was not overloaded.

 

If these condition exist, it's a P...right?

 

We can't play dumb and say "well I didn't see...". 

 

Phantom

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As a cowboy who is TO alot, and has seen alot of weird stuff on the line, I’m gonna throw this out: shooter, shoots pistols fast, real fast, one round, cylinder isnt indexed correctly; aim, pull trigger, hammer falls, no bang, moves to next target in sequence, BANG, last round hits correct target. Holsters pistol, heads to UT.    Target was engaged, hammer fell, fail to fire-5 second penalty. 
TO, spotters, no one notices only 9 rounds fired. Live round found in the gun at UT, calls miss, (unfired round). Goes and has a burger and a beer with the possee. I wish I could remember His alias, never saw a kid outrun brand new Vaqueros like he did. Double taps like Bob Munden, sounded like one shot! Haha. Im rambling. Back to the regularly scheduled program.

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24 minutes ago, Ned Plinkerton, SASS #41905 said:

As a cowboy who is TO alot, and has seen alot of weird stuff on the line, I’m gonna throw this out: shooter, shoots pistols fast, real fast, one round, cylinder isnt indexed correctly; aim, pull trigger, hammer falls, no bang, moves to next target in sequence, BANG, last round hits correct target. Holsters pistol, heads to UT.    Target was engaged, hammer fell, fail to fire-5 second penalty. 
TO, spotters, no one notices only 9 rounds fired. Live round found in the gun at UT, calls miss, (unfired round). Goes and has a burger and a beer with the possee. I wish I could remember His alias, never saw a kid outrun brand new Vaqueros like he did. Double taps like Bob Munden, sounded like one shot! Haha. Im rambling. Back to the regularly scheduled program.

Thank you. You gave the explaination of what MOST LIKELY happened here!!!

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53 minutes ago, Ned Plinkerton, SASS #41905 said:

As a cowboy who is TO alot, and has seen alot of weird stuff on the line, I’m gonna throw this out: shooter, shoots pistols fast, real fast, one round, cylinder isnt indexed correctly; aim, pull trigger, hammer falls, no bang, moves to next target in sequence, BANG, last round hits correct target. Holsters pistol, heads to UT.    Target was engaged, hammer fell, fail to fire-5 second penalty. 
TO, spotters, no one notices only 9 rounds fired. Live round found in the gun at UT, calls miss, (unfired round). Goes and has a burger and a beer with the possee. I wish I could remember His alias, never saw a kid outrun brand new Vaqueros like he did. Double taps like Bob Munden, sounded like one shot! Haha. Im rambling. Back to the regularly scheduled program.

And that would have been a P and a miss.

 

P for the skipped target and 5 sec for the unfired round.

 

Phantom

Edited by Phantom, SASS #54973
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5 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

And that would have been a P and a miss.

 

P for the skipped target and 5 sec for the unfired round.

 

Phantom

So every time a pistol has an unfired round discovered at the ULT it’s a P and a miss?  

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By definition of ‘engage’, page 43 of shooters handbook; ‘attempting to fire a round at a target’.

   If shooter, aimed, cocked the hammer, pulled the trigger, hammer fell, no bang,( for whatever reason, bad primer, cylinder not indexed properly) moved to last target for last round, BANG, targets engaged in correct order, last shot on correct target. Miss for the unfired round found at UT. Since no one was aware of only 9 rounds fired, tie goes to runner. 

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15 minutes ago, Hoss said:

So every time a pistol has an unfired round discovered at the ULT it’s a P and a miss?  

YES, EXCEPTING...

If the unfired round corresponds to the last pistol round that should have been fired (last shot on last target unfired).

OR

The unfired round was bypassed in the string and the shooter continued with the sequence as if the round didn't exist (last shot on last target unfired).

OR

The shooter engaged that unfired round and then continued the pistol string as if the unfired round was an actual miss (corresponding shot on corresponding target unfired).

 

These are exactly the same options as a rifle shooter experiences with a jacked out round.

 

The challenge comes knowing how these events occurred in the heat of the moment and whether they are just a miss or an unfired round and a P.

 

And yes,

an unfired round can cause a P.

 

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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23 minutes ago, Hoss said:

So every time a pistol has an unfired round discovered at the ULT it’s a P and a miss?  

Good Lord, are you reading what I'm writing?

 

Please look at the conditions that I stated for it being a P. 

 

Why do I even spend the time to write this c@#p...

 

Phantom

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1 hour ago, Ned Plinkerton, SASS #41905 said:

By definition of ‘engage’, page 43 of shooters handbook; ‘attempting to fire a round at a target’.

   If shooter, aimed, cocked the hammer, pulled the trigger, hammer fell, no bang,( for whatever reason, bad primer, cylinder not indexed properly) moved to last target for last round, BANG, targets engaged in correct order, last shot on correct target. Miss for the unfired round found at UT. Since no one was aware of only 9 rounds fired, tie goes to runner. 

Let's see...

 

5 shot Nevada Sweep on three targets. Say the shooter starts on the left target and we'll call that target No. 1.

 

Shooter goes Bang on 1, Bang on 2, Click on 3...says Crap!...cocks and pulls trigger again on 3 and this time gets a bang, then bang on 2, clickclickclickBANG on 1.

 

What do you call this??? Double Engagement? So it was a 1,2,3,3,2,1 five shot string?

 

Phantom

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On 6/15/2021 at 4:53 AM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

What do you call this??? Double Engagement? So it was a 1,2,3,3,2,1 five shot string?

A target has to be engaged at least once, but as long it's a click instead of the bang engage it as often as you want until there's the bang.

 

Back to the initial question:

There is the TO and the spotters - there are three of them to reduce subjectivity somewhat - giving their judgment based on WHAT THEY SAW AND HEARED as they're supposed to do. They declared the shooter clean. This is how our game (currently) works and calls aren't made based on guesses or "what most likely must have happened". At this point, if the pistol was underloaded he would get away with the clean stage despite only 9 rounds fired.

But then there's this rule several times mentioned in the SHB that unfired rounds in the pistols are counted as misses. No other penalties are mentioned. So, in this case call one miss.

This might be a bitter call for some competitors. As bitter as having a video of clean run that shows a P. There surely are other bitter examples. A lot of shooters don't care as it is just a game...

 

Of course, I can absolutely see your reasoning and and I second your logic! At the end, it also comes down to the currently discussed subjectivity of the competition and if a change is needed or possible.

 

Phil

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On 6/13/2021 at 9:39 PM, Tequila Shooter said:

Integrity = what you do when no one is looking.  I applaud anyone for calling a penalty on themself when it’s correct.  If you win a match but break a rule to do it, is the win really worth it?  So Seamus just by you calling anything on yourself shows your true colors, bravo pard, bravo.  

 

Howdy Tequila.

I've always enjoyed reading your post and this one is no exception.   So, I thought

I would clarify my previous answer about calling a 'P' and Miss on meowndangself.

 

I won't call the 'P' or Miss for reasons I stated before.  Our own judgement on these type

situations is better served being left up to the TO and Spotters.

 

BUT..... I have (and will continue) called a SDQ and MDQ on meowndangself when nobody else

knew of the situation.

I called a SDQ on myself for empties left in the pistol from a previous stage.

And one summer day at Wartrace, after traveling 3.5 hours to shoot on a beautiful Saturday,

I was at the LT when a gust of wind blew my hat off, hit my pistol and knocked it out of my hand

while loading.  The Pistol popped out of my hand, hit the table and bounce off on the ground.

ONE ity bitty round had just been put in it be for the occurrence.

I was the only one who witnessed it.     Sooooooo, I picked up that pistol, emptied it

and put it in the holster.  Carried all my stuff to my cart and told the Posse Marshal of the

situation and declared myself a nice MDQ.

 

I watched the last 3 stages from the sidelines while helping pick brass, spot, etc.....

 

You are right..... our integrity is what we have to live with.   I like to think I live with

good company.

 

..........Widder

 

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@Widder, SASS #59054 ahhhh, but young patawon you did call a P or miss on yourowndangself, you just went about it differently.  You told the TO then it’s up to them to make the final decision, you didn’t keep it to yourowndangself and pretend it never happened. 

 

I had a similar stage that I called a MDQ on myself.  At the LT I went to put a loaded pistol in my holster and missed, no one saw it, but I knew what happened so I told the TO.  

 

 

 

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As a young shooter as I was picking up my long guns I said to the TO "I think I got a P."

TO says "You're the shooter. You don't get paid to think. If we decide you deserve a penalty, you'll get one.":lol:

 

As a TO I tell shooters trying to assess a P or a miss on themselves "I ain't no priest and this isn't a confessional so run along to the unloading table."

 

Safety concerns are another story. EVERYONE is a Safety Officer.

Even a shooter.

I will hear safety confessions.

 

 

 

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On 6/13/2021 at 2:53 PM, Sixgun Seamus said:

Scenario called for rifle pistol sweep with set amount on hits on each target. Not a round count. I shot the stage and was called clean. Went to the unloading table and ejected unfired round from pistol. Neither myself, the TO or the spotters saw that I only fired 9 rounds. I showed the bullet to the ULT officer and said “that’s a miss” and told the scorekeeper to give me a miss on my score which he did. On the way home my wife and I were discussing the match. I got to thinking that that miss would have also resulted in a “P” because somewhere in the two pistols I didn’t fire a round. I do know the last round hit the correct target. I have a left and right designated pistol but failed to notice which gun the bullet came out of. It is possible and more than likely that I put the incorrect number of rounds on a target which earned the “P”. The rules state that only spotters can call a miss and only the spotters and TO can call a “P”.  I called the miss on myself but didn’t think about the “P” at the time. Now my questions to the group are:

1. Do YOU call a miss or a “P” on yourself?

2. CAN you call a miss or a “P” on yourself?

3. SHOULD you call a miss or a “P” on yourself?

I’m sure most of us have either benefitted or lost because of a missed call at one time or another. Just wondering what the masses thought.

I have called misses and procedurals on myself before too.  Well, what the hell?  I'm in this game for shooting, fun and friends.

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Let's just call it quits with the competition stuff...I mean...we all just here to shoot guns...have fun...hang out with friends.

 

What's the point of having a timer and awards...don't need 'em!

 

Phantom

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Just now, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

I have become very slow. I still want to do well. That takes a timer. ;)

Do you want the most honest measurement of your performance?

 

THAT'S the question.

 

:P

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