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Why Four + Shotgun Requirement


Yul Lose

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Years ago down at Dulzura they had a plate rack with the five cowboys in a line with their elbows out. My SG’s are all 16 gauge and I knew that if I placed my shots just right I could take down 2 knock downs with each shot and as luck would have it I took down all 5 with two shots. The instructions at that match did not call for 5+ so I went to my next guns with everyone yelling at me to fire 3 more shots, I didn’t. They tried to give me 3 SG misses for the unfired rounds but I pointed out the stage instructions that didn’t specify 5+.
 

Back when Smokestack was MD at The Cowboys in Norco he would write a stage per match with as needed or 2+ and if you knocked them down you didn’t have to fire extra rounds. Mike had 6 knockdowns set up on occasion that would go down on 3 well placed shots with no extras needed, one time I thought it would be easy and it took me 9 shots to get them all down. Bear Trap does it occasionally up at Cajon. At Escondido I think they did one stage that way once. If the targets are placed close together I try to do it every chance I get and fire the extra rounds of course if called for.

 

So why the 4+ stipulation if they can be brought down with only 2? Is it more of a safety move to keep shooters from bringing much more powerful or shells with larger shot and causing more splash back? Is it more of a leveling the playing field insuring everyone fires the same number of minimum shots?

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Been to a couple of great matches where it was "fire as many as needed".  If you knocked down 4 targets with 2 shots, fine.  Some took 6 or more. :D

 

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Some clubs' stage writers use (as an example) <4+ for 4 SG targets if they are arranged such that a single round can take down multiple targets.

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22 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Some clubs' stage writers use (as an example) <4+ for 4 SG targets if they are arranged such that a single round can take down multiple targets.

So there is no official SASS directive, it’s up to the local stage writers? In my opinion bringing down multiple knockdowns with one shot adds to the fun of the game and let’s the shooter determine how they want to shoot the stage much like shooters choice gun order stages. Sometimes taking the risk to knockdown multiple targets pays off and many times it doesn’t so I can’t understand why nearly every match that I attend out here has the 4+. The one and only time I was allowed to write the match stages out here nearly every SG scenario was as needed and every single person at the match told me how much fun they had with the SG set ups. One stage had 8 knockdowns and if done correctly 4 shells would have been enough, it took me 12.

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A club I shot at for the first time last year had a pistol/shotgun-only stage, and the shotgun targets were 6 small tombstone knockdowns arranged like bowling pins.  I think one guy got it in two shots, took me 6.  Locals who are prepared for targets like these can have special equipment and loads for them.

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I can recall a stage that I shot at Columbus my second year of shooting. There was a large pistol target positioned 8 or 10 yards behind a wooden frame that held a sheet of poster board stapled onto it. If the poster board had not been there it would have been just a big hole, some 20x30 inches. Anyway, for the shotgun on that stage the shooter was to use as many shots as they wanted to shoot a hole in the poster board until they could engage the pistol target. Was a lot of fun.

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I was shooting at a club where the instructions said that "repeating shotguns may load up their magazines on the clock."  On one particular stage, there were 6 shotgun targets.  Two knockdowns that threw up 2 poppers and 2 clays on stands.   Directions said, "Shoot any 4 shotgun targets in any order."

The idea was obviously that if you missed the poppers you would shoot the 2 on stands, ignoring them if you got the two poppers.   That's how everyone before me shot the stage.

Well, I loaded up my 97 with 4 rounds.

Shot the first one on a stand.

Shot the second one on a stand.
Shot both falling targets and ignored the flyers.

 

"Can he do that?"  "Is that a P?"  "Why didn't I think of doing it that way?"

 

After much discussion it was ruled that I shot "any 4 targets in any order" and thus the stage was clean.

Everyone after me did it the same way.   :)

 

 

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7 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I always listed shotgun round count as 1+

when I would write such a stage.  

We called them "Lucky You" stages.

That's the way I handled it too. Pretty much solves the problem

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1 hour ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

I can recall a stage that I shot at Columbus my second year of shooting. There was a large pistol target positioned 8 or 10 yards behind a wooden frame that held a sheet of poster board stapled onto it. If the poster board had not been there it would have been just a big hole, some 20x30 inches. Anyway, for the shotgun on that stage the shooter was to use as many shots as they wanted to shoot a hole in the poster board until they could engage the pistol target. Was a lot of fun.

I use to do that with rifle targets behind the screen... but I used Butcher paper...it was MUCH cheaper and worked just as well. Had a roll on a dowel above a frame, and just pulled down another section after each shooter and sliced off the old section. It was great fun. Folks were always amazed at how small the hole was from the shotgun.... some folks have it in their head that the shotguns spread out much more than they do as such close range. 

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10 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

Years ago down at Dulzura they had a plate rack with the five cowboys in a line with their elbows out. My SG’s are all 16 gauge and I knew that if I placed my shots just right I could take down 2 knock downs with each shot and as luck would have it I took down all 5 with two shots. The instructions at that match did not call for 5+ so I went to my next guns with everyone yelling at me to fire 3 more shots, I didn’t. They tried to give me 3 SG misses for the unfired rounds but I pointed out the stage instructions that didn’t specify 5+.
 

Back when Smokestack was MD at The Cowboys in Norco he would write a stage per match with as needed or 2+ and if you knocked them down you didn’t have to fire extra rounds. Mike had 6 knockdowns set up on occasion that would go down on 3 well placed shots with no extras needed, one time I thought it would be easy and it took me 9 shots to get them all down. Bear Trap does it occasionally up at Cajon. At Escondido I think they did one stage that way once. If the targets are placed close together I try to do it every chance I get and fire the extra rounds of course if called for.

 

So why the 4+ stipulation if they can be brought down with only 2? Is it more of a safety move to keep shooters from bringing much more powerful or shells with larger shot and causing more splash back? Is it more of a leveling the playing field insuring everyone fires the same number of minimum shots?

Bringing down 4 targets with two shots is very rare!

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53 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

I use to do that with rifle targets behind the screen... but I used Butcher paper...it was MUCH cheaper and worked just as well. Had a roll on a dowel above a frame, and just pulled down another section after each shooter and sliced off the old section. It was great fun. Folks were always amazed at how small the hole was from the shotgun.... some folks have it in their head that the shotguns spread out much more than they do as such close range. 

 

I really like that, sounds like real fun (plus a good way to pattern).  Was that the only SG target?  

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38 minutes ago, Tequila Shooter said:

 

I really like that, sounds like real fun (plus a good way to pattern).  Was that the only SG target?  

No, I would usually put at least one knock down on the side of the door frame. However... it's really not necessary because it always takes more shots than expected to get a hole that the shooter can work through. I wouldn't let them get up so close that they could just stick the barrel through the hole. I tried that one time and they many just stuck in the barrel and tore the paper, so keeping them back a bit stopped that. 

 

Snakebite

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Tbone's CAC one year...

The longhorns were placed where 2 could go down with one shot.

Was in stage description that if they went down on first round...move on to the next group...did not have to expell the 'extra' round...

In other words...knock down untill done. No specific count was given.

BUT...I am so use to shooting both barrells to get 2 down...

Half A Hand Henri was TO...

I shot one barrell, 2 went down, so I shucked and reloaded, repeated for the other 2 sets...

Henri just looks and says "Sue...you do know you shucked out 3 perfectly good shells"

Yup...you get in the habit and your brain just can't compute!

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2 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Bringing down 4 targets with two shots is very rare!

No it’s not. I do it quite often when the targets are placed right and do it with a 16 gauge. 

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3 hours ago, Snakebite said:

I use to do that with rifle targets behind the screen... but I used Butcher paper...it was MUCH cheaper and worked just as well. Had a roll on a dowel above a frame, and just pulled down another section after each shooter and sliced off the old section. It was great fun. Folks were always amazed at how small the hole was from the shotgun.... some folks have it in their head that the shotguns spread out much more than they do as such close range. 

It may have been sheets of Butcher paper, That was a long time ago, around 2000? Paper would make more sense, for the cost and ease as you said, plus would blow a hole a lot easier.

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The BIG reason that 4+ is often used is because TN Williams can't count to 4 with his SxS.

 

So with his SxS, he can load 2 shells, twice..... because he know how to count to TWO!

 

Oh yea..... true story!

 

..........Widder

 

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4 hours ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

I can recall a stage that I shot at Columbus my second year of shooting. There was a large pistol target positioned 8 or 10 yards behind a wooden frame that held a sheet of poster board stapled onto it. If the poster board had not been there it would have been just a big hole, some 20x30 inches. Anyway, for the shotgun on that stage the shooter was to use as many shots as they wanted to shoot a hole in the poster board until they could engage the pistol target. Was a lot of fun.

Yep, we've done that. We used a door with the top panel removed, stapled up cardboard after each shooter. The cardboard was all the same to keep it uniform for each shooter.  Lotta fun.:)

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1 hour ago, Singin&#x27; Sue 71615 said:

Tbone's CAC one year...

The longhorns were placed where 2 could go down with one shot.

Was in stage description that if they went down on first round...move on to the next group...did not have to expell the 'extra' round...

In other words...knock down untill done. No specific count was given.

BUT...I am so use to shooting both barrells to get 2 down...

Half A Hand Henri was TO...

I shot one barrell, 2 went down, so I shucked and reloaded, repeated for the other 2 sets...

Henri just looks and says "Sue...you do know you shucked out 3 perfectly good shells"

Yup...you get in the habit and your brain just can't compute!

 

How long ago was that?  Henri was one of my TO’s last year at CAC.  She hated it because I always made her laugh just before she hit the button, but she’s a good TO. 

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1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

The BIG reason that 4+ is often used is because TN Williams can't count to 4 with his SxS.

 

So with his SxS, he can load 2 shells, twice..... because he know how to count to TWO!

 

Oh yea..... true story!

 

..........Widder

 

Did he have to have a nanner split break between the 2nd and 3rd shot? :lol:

 

Kajun

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14 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

Is it more of a leveling the playing field insuring everyone fires the same number of minimum shots?

 

I think the underlying intent is to level the playing field and, as much as possible, make sure everybody shoots the "same " match.

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2 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

No it’s not. I do it quite often when the targets are placed right and do it with a 16 gauge. 

 YES IT IS, I'm talking around here to the 5 shoots I attend regularly and EVERY shoot I've been to in at least 5 other states, it's almost impossible because the shotgun targets are far enough apart that it really can't be done. I think whatever club that's happening at has the SG targets waaaaay too close together! :blink:

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11 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

 YES IT IS, I'm talking around here to the 5 shoots I attend regularly and EVERY shoot I've been to in at least 5 other states, it's almost impossible because the shotgun targets are far enough apart that it really can't be done. I think whatever club that's happening at has the SG targets waaaaay too close together! :blink:

I think that whatever clubs you shoot at has them wwwaaaayyyy to far apart!!!! Nearly every match I attend out here has them in close proximity so it can be easily done on a stage or two AND more and more shooters are trying to do it. Why is it a bad thing? It adds a lot of fun to the match. You take risks with shooters choice of guns and where to start at most venues out here why not add some spice to the SG knockdowns too? It doesn’t have to be like that every stage but it is very enjoyable and challenging when you can do it. 

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1 hour ago, Chantry said:

 

I think the underlying intent is to level the playing field and, as much as possible, make sure everybody shoots the "same " match.

It is the same match even without the 4+. 

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Once again, it comes down to the stage writer's intent. That's why at our club, the MD, TG, and all Posse leaders do a walk through and intent is clearly stated because we know certain shooters are going to ask certain questions or try certain things.

 

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8 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

I think that whatever clubs you shoot at has them wwwaaaayyyy to far apart!!!! Nearly every match I attend out here has them in close proximity so it can be easily done on a stage or two AND more and more shooters are trying to do it. Why is it a bad thing? It adds a lot of fun to the match. You take risks with shooters choice of guns and where to start at most venues out here why not add some spice to the SG knockdowns too? It doesn’t have to be like that every stage but it is very enjoyable and challenging when you can do it. 

I disagree! I've seriously hardly ever see them that close! Ohio, PA, Kentucky, South Carolina, Tennessee, North Carolina and Michigan! All those clubs I've been to for 3 day matches and I can't remember ever seeing them close enough to get two, maybe a couple times IF THAT! BTW I never said it was a BAD THING those are your words not mine!

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1 minute ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I disagree! I've seriously hardly ever see them that close! Ohio, PA, Kentucky, South Carolina, Tennessee, North Carolina and Michigan! All those clubs I've been to for 3 day matches and I can't remember ever seeing them close enough to get two, maybe a couple times IF THAT! BTW I never said it was a BAD THING those are your words not mine!

I guess we’ll disagree. I see them closer together all of the time and enjoy the challenge every chance I get. 

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3 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

I guess we’ll disagree. I see them closer together all of the time and enjoy the challenge every chance I get. 

Well good for you!!:P

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2 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

 

How long ago was that?  Henri was one of my TO’s last year at CAC.  She hated it because I always made her laugh just before she hit the button, but she’s a good TO. 

I am not real sure...maybe 3 yrs back?

She is awesome, for sure!

We started going in '10 for the Tuff Enough to Wear Pink...then decided to go every 5 years...then it was 3,2, then 1!!!

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6 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

"AS NEEDED"  has been the verbiage in these parts of the woods the past couple years.

 

..........Widder

 

thats what seems best to me that way no one feels compelled to shoot extra in these tite ammo times and if 'needed' you can carry a whole belt full 

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OH gimme a BREAK!!

 

PLUS ONE to Rye Miles.

 

Where we shoot, the Shotgun targets are spread all over the stage.  Shoot two at Station One, move. Shoot two at Station Two, move, Shoot two at Station Three.  Or skip station three and just shoot four.  Normal spread is between targets is 6 feet.  I wanna see ya take two down with one round.  Often on a stage with just Two shotgun targets, the targets are at opposite ends of the stage target arrays.

 

I'm not saying you can't have fun with the shotgun knockdowns standing shoulder to shoulder.  You can.  However, in this neck of the woods I'd suggest you bring plenty of shotgun shells.

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OK, back to the original post.

 

If the stage instructions said 4+, and he knocked them all down with less that 4 shots, does he have to fire more "empty" shots to keep clean?

 

I don't know if I'll ever place this situation personally, but as a shooter with still less than 10 matches under my belt, I want to know.

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4 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

It is the same match even without the 4+. 

Not if every shooter doesn't have to fire the same minimum number of shots. 

 

Do I think being able to knock down 2 or more shotgun targets would be fun, certainly, but I don't think it is something we would want to see at a state level match or above and I think it will frustrate far more shooters than it will please.

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