WTC Shotgun Knockdowns

[Irish Pat]

We have sometimes forgotten to reset the shotgun knock downs. If the shooter has started then we tell him to shoot that number of shotgun shells and consider he lucked out

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

31 minutes ago, Irish-Pat said:

We have sometimes forgotten to reset the shotgun knock downs. If the shooter has started then we tell him to shoot that number of shotgun shells and consider he lucked out

And in my opinion, the shooter should be stopped...apologies given by the T.O., and issued a reshoot.

 

Phantom

[Dusty Devil Dale]

15 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

And in my opinion, the shooter should be stopped...apologies given by the T.O., and issued a reshoot.

 

Phantom

And the Posse Marshall should consider replacing the target reset people with others who can pay attention and not be distracted. 

 IMO, many posse members just don't take their jobs -- especially target resetting and spotting--  seriously enough.  

I do understand that they are all volunteers, but even volunteers need to do their jobs diligently.  Otherwise, stage and match progress and even  outcomes can be altered. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

18 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

And the Posse Marshall should consider replacing the target reset people with others who can pay attention and not be distracted. 

 IMO, many posse members just don't take their jobs -- especially target resetting and spotting--  seriously enough.  

I do understand that they are all volunteers, but even volunteers need to do their jobs diligently.  Otherwise, stage and match progress and even  outcomes can be altered. 

I agree. All Stage officials should take their tasks seriously...but, the condition of the Stage is the responsibility of the T.O.

 

Phantom

[Hawkeye Kid]

Been about a week, any update from the ROC?

 

The constraint on time, puts the re-shoot option when a prop fails as not the most practical.

A consistent rule for all types of KD targets is necessary.

1 shot, 1 target down or missed. Targets that fall on their own (prop failure), require the shooter to place a shot in/near the space where the target was (not at the downed target).  The minimum number of rounds still need to be fired, however round count is not the determining factor to call that all targets are down due to shooter firing and hitting the target.  Example is the OP stage is 6+, shooter misses one target, one target exhibits prop failure, shooter knocks down remaining 5 targets, 6 shots fired.  To be clean, shooter must shoot one addition round where the prop failure target stood or take the miss.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

4 minutes ago, KH24 said:

Been about a week, any update from the ROC?

 

The constraint on time, puts the re-shoot option when a prop fails as not the most practical.

A consistent rule for all types of KD targets is necessary.

1 shot, 1 target down or missed. Targets that fall on their own (prop failure), require the shooter to place a shot in/near the space where the target was (not at the downed target).  The minimum number of rounds still need to be fired, however round count is not the determining factor to call that all targets are down due to shooter firing and hitting the target.  Example is the OP stage is 6+, shooter misses one target, one target exhibits prop failure, shooter knocks down remaining 5 targets, 6 shots fired.  To be clean, shooter must shoot one addition round where the prop failure target stood or take the miss.

It's only not practical if these things are occurring with a certain level of regularity...they are not. Certainly takes more time then just giving a shooter a Freebee and pissing all over the idea of a consistent match.

 

Phantom

[Hawkeye Kid]

Make it a Match Director option.  Match directions can be 1. In event of prop failure, stop shooter; provide re-shoot or 2. Follow ROC ruling on a prop failure.  It’s either option 1 or option 2 not a choice between options.

 

In my area, we shoot a lot of shotgun targets with a clay bird pop-up.  The clay target breaks frequently coming out of the pop-up.  Re-shoots are not practical, another option is necessary.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

43 minutes ago, KH24 said:

Make it a Match Director option.  Match directions can be 1. In event of prop failure, stop shooter; provide re-shoot or 2. Follow ROC ruling on a prop failure.  It’s either option 1 or option 2 not a choice between options.

 

In my area, we shoot a lot of shotgun targets with a clay bird pop-up.  The clay target breaks frequently coming out of the pop-up.  Re-shoots are not practical, another option is necessary.

Yeah, Clay Birds is terrible for bigger matches. Okay for monthlies where it seems the interest in having a true competition isn't as paramount. 

 

It's your club...you can do anything you want! 

 

Phantom

[Hoss]

1 hour ago, KH24 said:

Make it a Match Director option.  Match directions can be 1. In event of prop failure, stop shooter; provide re-shoot or 2. Follow ROC ruling on a prop failure.  It’s either option 1 or option 2 not a choice between options.

 

In my area, we shoot a lot of shotgun targets with a clay bird pop-up.  The clay target breaks frequently coming out of the pop-up.  Re-shoots are not practical, another option is necessary.

I like shooting a clay bird or a can every once in a while. But probably not a good idea at an annual match. 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yeah, Clay Birds is terrible for bigger matches. Okay for monthlies where it seems the interest in having a true competition isn't as paramount. 

 

It's your club...you can do anything you want! 

 

Phantom

Our Club shoots clay pop-up birds fairly often, including at our Annual matches.   Our experience is that very few other targets offer more fun and excitement to shooters and to spectators.   Watching clay birds explode is always a fun thing. 

 

We've found that the number of broken birds on launch can be greatly reduced at the time of device set-up. 

 

1.  take time to properly level (by instrument) and very securely stake down the launching device.   

2. In placing birds in the device, be sure their edges are free and do not contact anything. 

 

3. Properly maintain the pad upon which the clay birds rest.  

 

4.  Use only new birds that have not been stored in direct sun or in excessice heat or moisture. 

 

There will always be a few birds broken prematurely, but the steps above will make that a much less frequent occurrence.   When birds break prematurely, we just require the shooter to "shoot where it was" per the Shooters' Handbook, and move on. 

 

I do realize that even one bird broken by the launcher creates inequity, but I just see that as a part of the game.  I'd be very pleased if that was the only inequity in a match.  I don't personally view it as worse than KD targets that fall prematurely, or target array or prop design differences between tall and short shooters, or the variability between spotters' calls on all of the other targets in the match, or variability between different T.O.  actions (coaching, calls, etc) across a half-dozen or more posses.   

 

There's a point where we just have to accept that CAS shooting will never be completely without imperfections and inequities.  IMO,  few of our shooters would actually want CAS to be made that rigid and sterile.  We always have been willing to trade some imperfections to include stages that are more fun.   

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

38 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

There's a point where we just have to accept that CAS shooting will never be completely without imperfections and inequities.  IMO,  few of our shooters would actually want CAS to be made that rigid and sterile.  We always have been willing to trade some imperfections to include stages that are more fun. 

Rigid and sterile...????

 

Wow...wanting the competition to be consistent is now "Rigid and Sterile"...fascinating...

 

See here's the problem. You start talking about "Fun" as though your definition is the only one out there. That "imperfections and inequities" will always be part of the game. This is a Straw Man argument as no one is even remotely stating that our "game" will ever be without subjectivity (read imperfections and inequities). And to many, a consistently measure competition is "Fun". So in your world we shouldn't strive to eliminate "imperfections and inequities" wherever possible...in fact...maybe we should look for ways to inject more "imperfections and inequities"...???

 

Geeze...been doing this game for nearly 18 years...constant...multiple matches just about every month and travelled to many places. It still amazes me that some folks feel that making the competition side of this "game" less subjective somehow is an affront to their having "Fun"...

 

Maybe I should just join a re-enactment group...and have..."Fun".

 

Phantom

[Dusty Devil Dale]

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Rigid and sterile...????

 

Wow...wanting the competition to be consistent is now "Rigid and Sterile"...fascinating...

 

See here's the problem. You start talking about "Fun" as though your definition is the only one out there. That "imperfections and inequities" will always be part of the game. This is a Straw Man argument as no one is even remotely stating that our "game" will ever be without subjectivity (read imperfections and inequities). And to many, a consistently measure competition is "Fun". So in your world we shouldn't strive to eliminate "imperfections and inequities" wherever possible...in fact...maybe we should look for ways to inject more "imperfections and inequities"...???

 

Geeze...been doing this game for nearly 18 years...constant...multiple matches just about every month and travelled to many places. It still amazes me that some folks feel that making the competition side of this "game" less subjective somehow is an affront to their having "Fun"...

 

Maybe I should just join a re-enactment group...and have..."Fun".

 

Phantom

I don't know how to respond without being presumptive. 

I have my opinions, previously expressed.  But I really don't know how many shooters would prefer the Annual or larger matches to all be totally without targets that could introduce inequity between shooters.  In a perfect world, I guess it is possible to do that, but there will be a lot of differing views about the need or desirability. 

 

So I'm asking: how many of our shooters really would prefer no knockdown racks or individual kd targets, no clay bird targets, no Texas Stars that often prematurely drop targets, no hostage shield targets (which often present far more target area to taller shooters) and how many really prefer all targets set close enough to assure that spotters make few if any bad calls.   That may be competitively more pure,, but it might be judged pretty uninteresting for our large group of more traditional CAS shooters. 

 

The ROC wrestled with those variability issues previously, (presumably not in a vacuum), and they came up with the "shoot where it should be" solution.  I'm not presuming to second-guess that.  

 

We have " purer" matches like that,  and they ARE very well attended, so perhaps you are right that introducing uncertainty to make stages more fun is a wrong direction.  I will never be appointed the Supreme Judge of all that, and I wouldn't take the job. 

 

You were the one who said:

 

"It's your club...you can do anything you want! "

 

I was just working off of that,  describing what our very popular club has done.   All of this will forever be unsettled, IMO, so these rhetorical exchanges are just that. 

 

The more important part of my post was the numbered items, reducing malfunctions for those clubs who stil desire to include the very fun clay bird targets.  I just intended it as service, to describe what we have found to work well.  Others can take or leave it.  

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

35 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

So I'm asking: how many of our shooters really would prefer no knockdown racks or individual kd targets, no clay bird targets, no Texas Stars that often prematurely drop targets, no hostage shield targets (which often present far more target area to taller shooters) and how many really prefer all targets set close enough to assure that spotters make few if any bad calls.   That may be competitively more pure,, but it might be judged pretty uninteresting for our large group of more traditional CAS shooters. 

Again...here's the false argument.

 

Stop with it!

 

Where did I say remove certain targets? Where...oh the hell with it. 

 

Enjoy your warped interpretation of my position.

 

Oh, and when exactly did the "ROC" come up with the "Shoot where it was" solution??? I'm sure you were there...was the "ROC"?

 

Phantom

[Dusty Devil Dale]

Let's stop all the rhetoric and just declare a truce.  I'm good with that.  Like I said, there are lots of differing CAS preferences.  That's probably a good thing.  Sorry if I put words into your mouth.  Unintended. 

[Tennessee williams]

[Widder, SASS #59054]

You're gonna need a bigger bucket!

 

..........Widder

 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Yes, The Rock says shoot where it was!

[Dusty Devil Dale]

Just now, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

You're gonna need a bigger bucket!

 

..........Widder

 

Let's hope not.  

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Yes, The Rock says shoot where it was!

So...the "Rock" being a Lefty Looney...of course he'd say "Shoot it where it was".

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Count me in the group that would prefer the clean, rigid and sterile, non subjective match.

I love our game - I love playing cowboy.

But I am a COMPETITOR first and foremost.

And competitors want to be scored on their skills - we never want have the "honesty" of our wins (or losses) lessened because of imperfections and inequities.

 

IF I were to ever beat Phantom or Widder or a thousand other shooters that I shoot against - I want the match to be straight up - equal footing and consistent.

I never want to win or place because I shot a different match than my opponent.

 

 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

54 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Count me in the group that would prefer the clean, rigid and sterile, non subjective match.

I love our game - I love playing cowboy.

But I am a COMPETITOR first and foremost.

And competitors want to be scored on their skills - we never want have the "honesty" of our wins (or losses) lessened because of imperfections and inequities.

 

IF I were to ever beat Phantom or Widder or a thousand other shooters that I shoot against - I want the match to be straight up - equal footing and consistent.

I never want to win or place because I shot a different match than my opponent.

 

 

I think a lot of folks would put themselves in that camp and agree that your formula makes the competition most fair and therefore better, at least up to a point.  But a lot of others are here for the traditional CAS shooting variety and just the fun of shooting challenging stages together.   

The challenge we have in designing matches is doing justice to the breadth of players' interests and not losing too many  from our sport as a result of our decisions.  We call it a "sport", but in reality, there are several different games imbeded in CAS now.  I think the ROC, through the Shooters' Handbook,  took our best shot at making all of them compatable.   

[Widder, SASS #59054]

If I ever get to shoot with JEDI Creeker, I'll also go for the straight up, on your own, type match.

 

If I ever get to shoot with Phantomborg, I'll bribe the TO and Spotters to help me out

every way they can....... 

And I might try to get him to use some of my special lube in his '97..... 

 

..........Widder