Hawkeye Kid Posted June 8, 2021 Share Posted June 8, 2021 Stage is 6 shotgun knockdown targets, round count is 6+ shooter engages and hits target 1; engages and misses target 2; re-engages target 2; while re-loading target 4 falls over, engages and hits target 3, 5 & 6. At this point 6 rounds have been shot. TO instructs shooter to shot one more at the the fallen target 4 position. Was shot 7 correct? Alt scenario, stage instructions are to knockdown all shotgun targets, no round count is provided. Wind knocks down all targets, does the shooter need to fire any shotgun rounds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 8, 2021 Share Posted June 8, 2021 Quote In the event a target fails or falls to the ground, the Timer Operator should instruct the shooter to “shoot where it was.” RO2 p.8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 8, 2021 Share Posted June 8, 2021 Simple - Shooters done with the SG. Next shooter please! Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 8, 2021 Share Posted June 8, 2021 1 minute ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: RO2 p.8 PWB - I believe in this case, it was a KD shotgun target. 6 shots All down Next shooter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted June 8, 2021 Share Posted June 8, 2021 If those SG targets were staged relatively far apart, I would say the shooter would need to shoot where the fallen target is staged. IF those SG targets are staggered in a manner that they are 'shadowed' by each other, then his 1st 6 shots could be considered adequate for those stage requirements. This would be one of those circumstance where 'benefit of doubt' would serve the shooter well. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye Kid Posted June 8, 2021 Author Share Posted June 8, 2021 Phantom, are you implying in the second scenario, the shooter would not have to fire any shotgun rounds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 8, 2021 Share Posted June 8, 2021 Quote engages target 2; while re-loading target 4 falls over If a KD falls for any reason other than being HIT, it is considered a "target failure". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye Kid Posted June 8, 2021 Author Share Posted June 8, 2021 Targets were stage far enough apart where one round could not take down two targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 8, 2021 Share Posted June 8, 2021 1 minute ago, KH24 said: Phantom, are you implying in the second scenario, the shooter would not have to fire any shotgun rounds? Of course not...but then again, I've never encountered a stage where no SG round count is given...to the best of my recollection. And I kinda didn't read the question well with regards to the ALT scenario...sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted June 8, 2021 Share Posted June 8, 2021 The humor in the SG target falling 'automatically' is kinda funny, although I know it can happen. Normally, some of them won't even fall when hit, much less fall because a little breeze blows them over. If a little breeze can blow them over, then the magic BB can also be considered as a hit and fall. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 8, 2021 Share Posted June 8, 2021 2 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: If a KD falls for any reason other than being HIT, it is considered a "target failure". Interesting...never heard that one before. How do you know rocks didn't knock it down... Make it a rifle or a pistol KD rack. Now THAT gets interesting... Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted June 8, 2021 Share Posted June 8, 2021 What happened to target 3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye Kid Posted June 8, 2021 Author Share Posted June 8, 2021 Corrected op for target 3. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted June 8, 2021 Share Posted June 8, 2021 PWB. If that is so,?then a huge call stating that needs to go out. A huge one!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 It’s called a “gimme “ around these parts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kloehr Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 It is a target failure, but if it were me... throw a 7th shot at the berm (near target 4). Have to since I missed target 2 and engaged it a second time. Would have dropped that "seventh" shot when I got to number 4 rather than wait until the end of the rack. Have to engage each target as I understand the rules. Something about "Spirit of the Game" comes to mind. Probably decline offered reshoot for the equipment failure and accept my score as shot. Unless the rest was a train wreck and God smiled on me by dropping target number 4. Hey, TO, equipment failure. Can I please reshoot this stage? Alt scenario 2... No round count? Not even 1+ for 6 targets? Would throw 6 at the berm. Well, I would at least look like I was sweeping across the racks at where the targets were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 Sent to the ROC for a definitive ruling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 13 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: Sent to the ROC for a definitive ruling. So the rules committee is now going to get involved with judgement calls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 7 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said: So the rules committee is now going to get involved with judgement calls? Noooo...maybe they'll get involved to figure out how to remove the need for judgement calls...ever think about that??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye Kid Posted June 9, 2021 Author Share Posted June 9, 2021 Why would you call this a “judgment call” ? Either a round has to hit and knockdown the KD target or when the KD falls on its own accord - due to wind, rock, earthquakes, stray bullet from another shooting bay, or what every, the KD is a freebie (as long as minimum number of shots fired) or you need to shoot where it was regardless if the minimum number of rounds have been fired. In this case, shooter should have fired a 7th round into berm for the fallen 4th target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye Kid Posted June 9, 2021 Author Share Posted June 9, 2021 FYI I was the TO, and instructed shooter to fire the 7th round. On protest from one Spotter, Posse Marshal adjusted shooter’s time. Shooter was happy to get back a few seconds on the stage. Does this all tie back to the coaching thread? Let the calls all sort out at the end of the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 Here's one-- Bottle rack for 5 then stationary for 5 bonus. All are rifle targets. First round took two bottles down. Knocked the other three down, 5th round downrange hit the stationary rifle target along with the last five. Got called for a "P". No benefit of the doubt to the shooter for intent. No benefit to the shooter for hitting the bonus target an additional time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 Quote On protest from one Spotter, Posse Marshal adjusted shooter’s time. Spotter is not allowed to make a protest. Only the shooter can file a protest about a call on his stage. Spotter can make a "corrected call recommendation" (for a anything other than a miss call) to the TO, but the TO still gets to make the final call. Sounds like a poor decision to let the Posse Marshall call it, and especially without a shooter protest. good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 24 minutes ago, KH24 said: Why would you call this a “judgment call” ? Either a round has to hit and knockdown the KD target or when the KD falls on its own accord - due to wind, rock, earthquakes, stray bullet from another shooting bay, or what every, the KD is a freebie (as long as minimum number of shots fired) or you need to shoot where it was regardless if the minimum number of rounds have been fired. In this case, shooter should have fired a 7th round into berm for the fallen 4th target. If you shot into the berm, you didn't shoot where the target was...miss! Shoot another round!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 18 minutes ago, KH24 said: FYI I was the TO, and instructed shooter to fire the 7th round. On protest from one Spotter, Posse Marshal adjusted shooter’s time. Shooter was happy to get back a few seconds on the stage. Does this all tie back to the coaching thread? Let the calls all sort out at the end of the stage. Hold up a second... Just how did the PM "adjust a shooters' time?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 Sounds like shotgun targets were set "Too Lite." How many times have you seen shotgun targets that can't be reset no matter how hard you pull on the reset rope or chain? Poor stage prep by whoever is setting up stages. If a shotgun target will fall over when shot with just a "wad" with no lead shot, bad shotgun load, then targets were not properly adjusted before match started. If shooter missed a knockdown and then re-engaged and another target fell he should shoot where the target was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye Kid Posted June 9, 2021 Author Share Posted June 9, 2021 Many Clubs have a preference not to shoot at a fallen target, shoot over target into berm. Never seen anyone called if they do shoot at the fallen target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 4 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said: Hold up a second... Just how did the PM "adjust a shooters' time?! Maybe he was on one of those 'teams' we've heard about that gather to support each other at their matches. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye Kid Posted June 9, 2021 Author Share Posted June 9, 2021 Shotgun was last, run through timer and take second to last shot time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, KH24 said: Shotgun was last, run through timer and take second to last shot time. Not exactly a correct way to determine that 'particular shot'. To often, other sounds are recorded on the timer, etc..... And this is the reason the TO looks at the timer at the instant the last shot is made and also sounds it out verbally, etc....... ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 4 minutes ago, KH24 said: Shotgun was last, run through timer and take second to last shot time. There is NO provision in the rules allowing any adjustment of the shooter's raw time. If it was determined to be "Improper coaching", the shoot either takes the time "as is" or takes a RESHOOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 5 minutes ago, KH24 said: Shotgun was last, run through timer and take second to last shot time. No. No RO course, book, or clarification I know of allows for going back through a timer to "award" a time to a shooter.. If it was declared bad or improper coaching it should have been a reshoot. As Widder pointed out, no telling what sound or finger bump the timer picked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 23 minutes ago, KH24 said: Many Clubs have a preference not to shoot at a fallen target, shoot over target into berm. Never seen anyone called if they do shoot at the fallen target. The rule specifies "shoot where it was"...and specifically states to NOT engage a down target.REF: SHB p.13 / RO2 p.8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 It is never a good idea to adjust a shooter's time. There are too many variables to determine an amount. For example, one would never assume a standard time that would be the same for me and Matt Black. Reshoot would be the appropriate thing to do. (I see I am as slow at typing as I am at shooting as PWB twice and TNW posted since I started typing.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 Oh my god... We need to serious consider whether this a silly game...or is it a competition. If a target fail - fricken stop the shooter, fix the dang target, and reshoot. Yesyesyes...I'm not one of these Wire Wranglers that never shoots a real SASS match...in fact, I know the rules pretty damn well and I KNOW this isn't what is supposed to happen. But...why the hell not???? Oh Mr. Whatever Alias, just shoot where it was. You get a freebie!!! Yeeeeehawwwww!!!!! Let's stop thinking that this is the correct way to go and think of something better! As I said in another related post, I've seen guys get "Freebie" cuz a swinger got stuck. "PROP FAILURE!!!!"....shoot it as is!!!! You lucky dog (or doggett...don't want to give it away that the shooter was a guy...oops...just did...). So...now we need clarification on what is a Freebie Shoot It Were It Is, and what is a STOP and fix...reshoot prop failure. Good lord... Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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