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FFLs and shipments from individuals?


July Smith

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Just out of curiosity, why is it that some FFLs won't accept a shipment from an individual?  Does this somehow add an extra step to the transfer process?  Is it because individuals are prone to forgetting to place a copy of their DL in the box?  Just wondering...

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Sometimes, it has to do with State laws, such as California for example.

 

Otherwise, a good part of it is just up to the FFL holder.

 

As a 'tinkerer' with Marlins and Henry's, I always accepted them from the individual.

Of course, I could also return them directly to the owner EXCEPT for those States that

required incoming firearms be shipped to a State FFL, such as in California.

 

..........Widder

 

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I've had to deal with FFLs who refused to ship C&R eligible firearms to me, so it's not just the issue with receiving guns from individuals. Many FFLs simply don't know the laws well enough and they'd rather be safe than sorry. The last guy I talked to wouldn't take my C&R at first, but after I showed him that only California has a prohibition against C&R holders he finally agreed.

 

I've sent a few guns directly to FFLs and been refused a few times as well. When I'm refused I make the buyer of the firearm cover my local FFL's transfer fee since I refuse to get dinged for their ignorance.

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Another area of ignorance is the definition of “antique”. Too many FFLs use the NFA definition which excludes any gun using modern/available ammo but that law only applies to machine guns and destructive devices.  They should use the definition from Title 27 Code of Federal Regulations which applies to non NFA guns and only excludes modern replicas of antiques that fire modern/available ammo. 
 

Seamus

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i think a lot of FFLs wish to avoid that inquiry that might result in them being held responsible for vague or insufficient info - would you want a federal official grilling you over something you cant control ? easier to just handle the straight forward things with proper paper - i think its all a second amendment infringement but if i were an FFL i would be careful what i accepted to avoid the hassle 

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Sometimes it's local laws. Sometimes it's local ignorance.

I ordered a cap & ball revolver, one time, and they said they had to ship it to an F.F.L. Dealer.  In this case, there was no law to prohibit shipping a blackpowder firearm to me, so I told them to forget it, and I will buy elsewhere. I bought elsewhere, and they lost a sale. 

This is one reason why some businesses go under...ignorance. 

 

 

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On 6/7/2021 at 2:03 PM, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Sometimes, it has to do with State laws, such as California for example.

 

Otherwise, a good part of it is just up to the FFL holder.

 

As a 'tinkerer' with Marlins and Henry's, I always accepted them from the individual.

Of course, I could also return them directly to the owner EXCEPT for those States that

required incoming firearms be shipped to a State FFL, such as in California.

 

..........Widder

 

Interesting. I have shipped firearms to gun manufactures for warranty repairs and received them directly back from the manufacturer without going through an FFL. In California as long as the the gun goes to or from an FFL, gun manufacturer or a manufacturer’s designated warranty repair facility it is legal to ship and receive directly without going through a local FFL. 
 

Now, purchasing is completely different and must go through an FFL. Also, if a gun is replaced by a manufacturer for warranty issues then the gun must go through an FFL for proper registration and documentation. 
 

Many folks err on the side of caution and ship through an FFL, but manufacturers won’t pay the extra money for doing so since the law says one does not have to ship through an FFL if the firearm is going to an FFL. 

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On 6/7/2021 at 2:34 PM, July Smith said:

Just out of curiosity, why is it that some FFLs won't accept a shipment from an individual?  Does this somehow add an extra step to the transfer process?  Is it because individuals are prone to forgetting to place a copy of their DL in the box?  Just wondering...

 

Because they have to enter it into their "bound book" and they're not used to doing so without receiving from another FFL.  They get into a habit that guns come in from FFLs and go out on 4473s and any deviation from that is an outlier that the ATF might give them a hard time about, and they'd rather avoid it.

 

On 6/7/2021 at 3:12 PM, Sixgun Sheridan said:

I've had to deal with FFLs who refused to ship C&R eligible firearms to me, so it's not just the issue with receiving guns from individuals. Many FFLs simply don't know the laws well enough and they'd rather be safe than sorry. The last guy I talked to wouldn't take my C&R at first, but after I showed him that only California has a prohibition against C&R holders he finally agreed.

 

I've sent a few guns directly to FFLs and been refused a few times as well. When I'm refused I make the buyer of the firearm cover my local FFL's transfer fee since I refuse to get dinged for their ignorance.

 

I have had my C&R for decades and I have never been treated as anything other than a licensee.  Someone really ought to challenge that California thing in federal court.  I imagine if California told firearm manufacturers they couldn't act as dealers or provide gunsmithing services, it'd be obvious why discriminating against licensees is an issue.  Then again, our very own USPS still won't let us mail even C&R handguns, so perhaps you're onto something.

 

Why did you have a transfer fee if you mailed a gun somewhere and it was returned to you?

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1 hour ago, Sixgun Sheridan said:

 

All my local FFLs charge a transfer fee regardless of whether a gun is going out or coming in.

So why did you use an FFL to send it out?  Were you dealing with a recipient who wouldn't accept from individuals?

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An FFL can be verified online in a few seconds, a driver license or state issued ID, not so much. A scan of a DL or ID is also very easy to edit with false information.

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1 hour ago, Chacón said:

So why did you use an FFL to send it out?  Were you dealing with a recipient who wouldn't accept from individuals?

 

Correct. When an FFL refuses to accept a gun from me I have to ship it to them via my local FFL. I get charged for a transfer as well as the gun buyer on the other end.

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2 minutes ago, Sixgun Sheridan said:

 

Correct. When an FFL refuses to accept a gun from me I have to ship it to them via my local FFL. I get charged for a transfer as well as the gun buyer on the other end.

I saw a situation a year or two back where a man needed to transfer a handgun from California to Montana. The California FFL charged the guy $55 to log it into his book and ANOTHER $55 to log it out, then the poor sap had to pay a THIRD transfer fee when it got to Montana. All told, at least $130 in transfer fees for a Ruger LC9s, and they were selling for... what, about $350, new, before this panic.

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This is off the California AG's website.  I looked it up because I am selling off some CAS guns and without doubt someone from CA will want one.

 

  1. I am not an FFL but I want to ship a firearm to a California FFL. Do I have to obtain a Firearms Shipment Approval number before shipping a firearm to California?
    • No. Only shipments from Federal Firearms Licensees (FFL) require a Firearms Shipment Approval number.

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1 hour ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

I saw a situation a year or two back where a man needed to transfer a handgun from California to Montana. The California FFL charged the guy $55 to log it into his book and ANOTHER $55 to log it out, then the poor sap had to pay a THIRD transfer fee when it got to Montana. All told, at least $130 in transfer fees for a Ruger LC9s, and they were selling for... what, about $350, new, before this panic.

 

Local gun shops often get tired of people buying online and are determined to make them pay, one way or the other. Same goes with other types of sales like consignments. I wanted to sell a $250 Taurus on consignment and the LGS told me they charge either $100 or 15% of the value, whichever was more. Ummm, no. :rolleyes:

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3 hours ago, Sixgun Sheridan said:

 

Local gun shops often get tired of people buying online and are determined to make them pay, one way or the other. Same goes with other types of sales like consignments. I wanted to sell a $250 Taurus on consignment and the LGS told me they charge either $100 or 15% of the value, whichever was more. Ummm, no. :rolleyes:

 

The solution to that here was that all FFLs are "required" by law to perform transfers at a regulated price.  Wal-Mart promptly pulled guns from 100% of its stores, the day the law took effect.

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13 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Interesting. I have shipped firearms to gun manufactures for warranty repairs and received them directly back from the manufacturer without going through an FFL. In California as long as the the gun goes to or from an FFL, gun manufacturer or a manufacturer’s designated warranty repair facility it is legal to ship and receive directly without going through a local FFL. 
 

Now, purchasing is completely different and must go through an FFL. Also, if a gun is replaced by a manufacturer for warranty issues then the gun must go through an FFL for proper registration and documentation. 
 

Many folks err on the side of caution and ship through an FFL, but manufacturers won’t pay the extra money for doing so since the law says one does not have to ship through an FFL if the firearm is going to an FFL. 

 

Your post is also interesting.

I have received a handful of firearms to work on by individuals in California.

and EACH of them gave me the name of their FFL to return back to them.

Along with shipping it back TO an FFL, I had to go on line to California's Dept of Justice,

fill out their form and supply a particular FFL dealer # before getting approval to ship that

firearm TO THE FFL..... as stated by Cal DOJ instructions.

 

And before I could ever ship THE FIRST firearm a couple years back, I had to register myself with

CDOJ with my FFL information.

 

I might add that I have found it very little trouble to ship a gun to Cal.   Yes, it does take a few

extra minutes on the computer and putting proper paper work in the box with the firearm.

But its not overbearing.

 

..........Widder

 

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40 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Your post is also interesting.

I have received a handful of firearms to work on by individuals in California.

and EACH of them gave me the name of their FFL to return back to them.

Along with shipping it back TO an FFL, I had to go on line to California's Dept of Justice,

fill out their form and supply a particular FFL dealer # before getting approval to ship that

firearm TO THE FFL..... as stated by Cal DOJ instructions.

 

And before I could ever ship THE FIRST firearm a couple years back, I had to register myself with

CDOJ with my FFL information.

 

I might add that I have found it very little trouble to ship a gun to Cal.   Yes, it does take a few

extra minutes on the computer and putting proper paper work in the box with the firearm.

But its not overbearing.

 

..........Widder

 

I don’t know what to tell you except that in the past 2 years I have sent guns to Smith & Wesson 3 times directly and they sent them back to me, directly. I have shipped guns to Ruger twice directly and received them back directly. No FFL involved on my end. Perhaps it’s because they are a manufacturer? The CFLC with the DOJ Bureau of Firearms does outline different requirements for different types of FFL holders. 

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10 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

I don’t know what to tell you except that in the past 2 years I have sent guns to Smith & Wesson 3 times directly and they sent them back to me, directly. I have shipped guns to Ruger twice directly and received them back directly. No FFL involved on my end. Perhaps it’s because they are a manufacturer? The CFLC with the DOJ Bureau of Firearms does outline different requirements for different types of FFL holders. 

I've done that with S&W and Ruger also, both times replaced with new guns with different serial numbers and shipped right back to my door step, but in 2018, Kimber required the return gun, also with a different s/n, to go through an FFL.

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58 minutes ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

I've done that with S&W and Ruger also, both times replaced with new guns with different serial numbers and shipped right back to my door step, but in 2018, Kimber required the return gun, also with a different s/n, to go through an FFL.

Now, I know for sure if the firearm is replaced that California would require it to go to an FFL so they could properly get it registered and make their evil empire building fees from it and they would kindly make you wait 10 more days for the privilege of getting that new gun. Commie bureaucrats are so understanding…:angry:

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