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27 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

You ask for a line?

 

Please don't do that for me if you're ever running the timer on me.

 

Phantom

 

Oh my..... you should have never let me know that.

 

It would be worth driving to Colorado just to run the timer

for you now and asking you to "Say the Line"..... :lol::lol:

 

..........Widder

 

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As Creeker said:  "Fourth - We do not award or assign penalties - the shooter EARNS their penalties for their actions or inactions. Anything the shooter earns - is exactly what they they des

I'd cut some slack for the Brand New Shooter...just once.   And yes, our rules on coaching suck! There is NO WAY to know who is giving you advice. In my opinion, there should be NO coaching.

The best T.O. in the world is not going to make someone else beat you if you do your job. If you want to win then you need to shoot the best match. Anyone that needs to be coached on any stage is loos

18 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Oh my..... you should have never let me know that.

 

It would be worth driving to Colorado just to run the timer

for you now and asking you to "Say the Line"..... :lol::lol:

 

..........Widder

 

Even with the gas prices the way they are??

 

:P

 

 

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1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Oh my..... you should have never let me know that.

 

It would be worth driving to Colorado just to run the timer

for you now and asking you to "Say the Line"..... :lol::lol:

 

..........Widder

 

You would likely be disappointed.  I haven't seen a starting line written for a stage since I moved to this part of the country.  It must be a regional thing.

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35 minutes ago, Chuckwagon McTaggart said:

You would likely be disappointed.  I haven't seen a starting line written for a stage since I moved to this part of the country.  It must be a regional thing.

Then go and attend Hell On Wheels...yer in the neighborhood.

 

Phantom

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3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Then go and attend Hell On Wheels...yer in the neighborhood.

 

Phantom

I'm signed up.  I shot it for the first time last year.  Looking forward to shooting it again.

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On 6/9/2021 at 1:29 PM, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

When someone suggests that everyone competitive drop into the open category, it sure does give the shaft to everyone in the 17-35 age 

 

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Safely Assist doesn't just refer to safety related issues. It never has meant that. It describes how the T.O. should conduct himself. Like it or not, the current set of rules make it clear that coaching by the T.O. is part of the game. Ask the ROC if the T.O. can offer non Safety realated assistance to the shooter. Refusing to admit that fact just because you don't like it doesn't help to solve your problem. If you want the rule changed then by all means work for a change. In the mean time the game will continue with coaching taking place. 

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9 hours ago, Snakebite said:

Safely Assist doesn't just refer to safety related issues. It never has meant that. It describes how the T.O. should conduct himself. Like it or not, the current set of rules make it clear that coaching by the T.O. is part of the game. Ask the ROC if the T.O. can offer non Safety realated assistance to the shooter. Refusing to admit that fact just because you don't like it doesn't help to solve your problem. If you want the rule changed then by all means work for a change. In the mean time the game will continue with coaching taking place. 

I think what folks are doing here is just that...getting the conversation started.

 

This forum can help flesh out the issue.

 

Phantom

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9 hours ago, Snakebite said:

Safely Assist doesn't just refer to safety related issues. It never has meant that. It describes how the T.O. should conduct himself. Like it or not, the current set of rules make it clear that coaching by the T.O. is part of the game. Ask the ROC if the T.O. can offer non Safety realated assistance to the shooter. Refusing to admit that fact just because you don't like it doesn't help to solve your problem. If you want the rule changed then by all means work for a change. In the mean time the game will continue with coaching taking place. 

I am fully aware of what the current rules allow. 

And under the current rules; I do my flat out absolute best to offer every assistance my skill level allows - and in all humility - I am as good as anyone I have ever seen performing the duty.

 

But ultimately; I dont believe "safely assist" was ever intended to encourage a situation where the participation level and skillset of the TO would impact the shooters results.

 

In a perfect world where every TO was knowledgable of the rules, skilled, focused, agile, articulate and reasonably able to predict the shooters next move - I would have no issue with TO coaching.

But that is NOT the world we live or shoot within - the skillset and knowledge of folks handling the timer vary as widely as the skillsets of our shooters.

 

And until there is ANY consistency of skill and ability at the TO level - the practice of TO coaching (for any purpose beyond safety) will continue to affect scores and placements (positively and negatively) at all levels of match. 

 

It is often said that failing to call a penalty on one shooter is, in effect, penalizing EVERY other shooter in their category.

 

The current practice of one TO saving a shooter versus another TO being too slow, out of position or unprepared to save their shooter effectively creates the same situation.

 

Unless you can demonstrate a method to raise all TO skill levels - the only equitable course is to minimize their impact.

And YES - that is what this thread is about and for - starting that conversation.

 

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On 6/10/2021 at 6:10 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Funny you say this (Bold part). I've been saying this for years whenever I'm asked or I'm involved in a discussion about WR (and lately EOT), stages. The response I get from the "Powers that be" is "It's a National Championship (or World), and it should be a test (paraphrasing of course by you get the drift). 

 

So...if the Stages need to be Championship "level", then shouldn't the Coaching be made illegal? I mean...we're measuring for the National and World Championships fer gawds sake!

 

Hmmmm...perhaps a new tangent to take us to 8 pages...???

 

Phantom

 

Most excellent point. The two philosophies most definitely seem to contradict each other. I can only offer my opinion. And my opinion aligns with what Creeker has said dozens of times. “We’re in the entertainment business.” 

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3 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Most excellent point. The two philosophies most definitely seem to contradict each other. I can only offer my opinion. And my opinion aligns with what Creeker has said dozens of times. “We’re in the entertainment business.” 

Well...so are movie theaters...but they rape ya on the concession prices.

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On 6/10/2021 at 6:43 PM, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Im saying that AT A CERTAIN LEVEL of event.  A Championship event.

Everyone should be subject to shooting the same match under the same conditions.

 

Very interesting concept. I only have two minor concerns. As I mentioned to Phantom, SASS is unique in that you don’t have to qualify to participate in their championship matches. If we make those matches more difficult (no coaching) we run the risk of driving away customers. My second concern is the CERTAIN LEVEL you’re talking about is totally arbitrary. Inevitably you’ll be face with, “why do we do it here and not here?” Not huge concerns but concerns.

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"As I mentioned to Phantom, SASS is unique in that you don’t have to qualify to participate in their championship matches." 

 

What action shooting sports do you have to qualify in to participate in their national championships?  I answered this previously.  Only 20% of USPSA spots in nationals are earned by performance.  80% is open registration for members and spots distributed to clubs around the country. Any member of any ability can get those spots. 

In IDPA a shooter gets points  for shooting larger matches. If you accumulate enough points you earn a spot in nationals through participation not performance. Some shooters can earn their entry to the match by performance but most don't.

If a top shooter wants to shoot a match the match director will probably get them in the match in any action shooting sport.

I have no idea how openings are allotted in trap, long range rifle, bullseye or anything else but I consider SASS, USPSA and IDPA to all be action shooting sports.

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9 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

Sorry, hit the wrong quote. Don't know how to remove it using my phone.

There are two was to accomplish change, from the top down or the bottom up. A Grass Roots campaign can certainly be effective if enough folks want something to happen. There is a seed planted, time will tell if it will grow. There have been some good valid points made, but I believe that the vast majority of shooters want to told/corected on the stage. We'll see how it plays out. 

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13 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

There are two was to accomplish change, from the top down or the bottom up. A Grass Roots campaign can certainly be effective if enough folks want something to happen. There is a seed planted, time will tell if it will grow. There have been some good valid points made, but I believe that the vast majority of shooters want to told/corected on the stage. We'll see how it plays out. 

 

Howdy Snakebite.

Although I'm in the 'No Coaching' side of the issue (with some exceptions).... I agree that the majority of shooters would prefer

coaching when necessary.

 

I ain't so sure that the 'Coaching' aspect is the problem but

rather the 'Unequal Coaching' situation that can occur 

thru-out all the Posse's and the TO's ability to be a good

or not-so-good Coach.

 

Regardless, we will all experience those days when a good TO

will save our hide on the stage..... and we will also have those

times with the TO can't count to 10 and tell you about another

round in the pistols..... when in fact you actually fired 10.

;)

 

..........Widder

 

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No coaching. I experienced this yesterday except I was the person holding the timer. Person shot the stage clean. As I was giving the time to the score keeper and ensuring the stage was getting set up for the next shooter I heard a bang from the unloading table. 

 

As the shooter  levered his rifle to show clear he also pulled the trigger. (Yeah, obviously more than one mistake by the shooter.) Wouldn’t you know it, there was still a live round in the rifle and he just ate a MDQ. But what happened to create the situation in the first place? Did I screw up and miscount his rifle shots. If I had known there was still one more am I supposed to keep my mouth shut and create an unsafe condition? 

 

I understand what Phantom, Creeker and Widder are saying about trying to make matches more consistent. I don’t disagree with the concept. My brain simply isn’t big enough to come up with an idea on how that still allows us to help competitors to have a better experience.

 

Part of that is me being selfish. Yesterday is going to haunt me for years. I’ve had far too many instances where my action or inaction cost the shooter. They all haunt me and always will. I don’t want to be put in a position where I could help a shooter but am not allowed to. I don’t think I’d be able to stand there silently and watch someone ruin their match. :( 

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4 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

No coaching. I experienced this yesterday except I was the person holding the timer. Person shot the stage clean. As I was giving the time to the score keeper and ensuring the stage was getting set up for the next shooter I heard a bang from the unloading table. 

 

As the shooter  levered his rifle to show clear he also pulled the trigger. (Yeah, obviously more than one mistake by the shooter.) Wouldn’t you know it, there was still a live round in the rifle and he just ate a MDQ. But what happened to create the situation in the first place? Did I screw up and miscount his rifle shots. If I had known there was still one more am I supposed to keep my mouth shut and create an unsafe condition? 

 

I understand what Phantom, Creeker and Widder are saying about trying to make matches more consistent. I don’t disagree with the concept. My brain simply isn’t big enough to come up with an idea on how that still allows us to help competitors to have a better experience.

 

Part of that is me being selfish. Yesterday is going to haunt me for years. I’ve had far too many instances where my action or inaction cost the shooter. They all haunt me and always will. I don’t want to be put in a position where I could help a shooter but am not allowed to. I don’t think I’d be able to stand there silently and watch someone ruin their match. :( 

Here's how it's handled:

 

True story from Yesterday. 


Working on my "First Shot" speed I shot a rifle sequence that was supposed to have had a double tap first target. Well...remember I working on First Shot speed...so I single tapped the first target...did do a nice first shot though.

 

Anyway, at the end of the Stage the T.O. brought the rifle over to me safely and showed the live round on the carrier.

 

Oops!

 

Went to unloading table and cleared.

 

Done. Accepted my Trifecta...but I did have a nice First Shot time!

 

Phantom

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On 6/10/2021 at 9:43 PM, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Im saying that AT A CERTAIN LEVEL of event.  A Championship event.

Everyone should be subject to shooting the same match under the same conditions.

 

On 6/11/2021 at 3:04 PM, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

But this thread ain't about Phantom.  But rather about trying

to have TO duties that can be considered 'more equal' for

everyone on EVERY posse..... which in turn gives a more fair

assessment of everyones score at the end of the day.

 

One year at the NC State match...  four match workers worked each berm (two stages were shot in each berm).  Those four workers timed and spotted for every shooter in the match for the two stages shot in their berm.  Two of the four were the designated TOs (because one person simply can't run the clock all the time).  So, every shooter got the same "officials" on each stage.  Those officials also cleared the line of brass & SG hulls and reset targets.  We dubbed it the "Show up and shoot" match.

 

Three things:

 

1) Lost brass match.  Local Boy Scouts picked brass after shooting each day, then auctioned it off at the beginning of the awards ceremony.

 

2) The concept wasn't very well received by some.  Not because of any complaints about the officiating, mind you, they said they were bored.

 

3) Of course, the match workers that "shot thru" all ten stages the day before the match didn't get the same "officials", and those main-match-day stage officials made for 20 additional shoot thrus.   However, if you remember a bruhaha from a few years ago, match workers that shoot thru are cheaters anyway.  :huh:

 

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Hey BULL,

its possible, and in the scenario you gave, highly probable that

the shooter loaded an extra round in their rifle at the LT.

 

If you and 3 spotters counted 10 shots because the shooter was

declared CLEAN for the stage, the probability of that EXTRA round

loaded at the LT greatly increases.

 

Just a thought.

 

..........Widder

 

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3 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Here's how it's handled:

 

True story from Yesterday. 


Working on my "First Shot" speed I shot a rifle sequence that was supposed to have had a double tap first target. Well...remember I working on First Shot speed...so I single tapped the first target...did do a nice first shot though.

 

Anyway, at the end of the Stage the T.O. brought the rifle over to me safely and showed the live round on the carrier.

 

Oops!

 

Went to unloading table and cleared.

 

Done. Accepted my Trifecta...but I did have a nice First Shot time!

 

Phantom

 

My problem is that I, as the TO, didn’t know there was another round in the rifle. I screwed up. (Yes, the shooter screwed up even more.) 

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2 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Hey BULL,

its possible, and in the scenario you gave, highly probable that

the shooter loaded an extra round in their rifle at the LT.

 

If you and 3 spotters counted 10 shots because the shooter was

declared CLEAN for the stage, the probability of that EXTRA round

loaded at the LT greatly increases.

 

Just a thought.

 

..........Widder

 

 

Oh no doubt. And there’s a 99.9% chance that’s exactly what happened. It’s that other .1% that bothers the crap out of me. :(

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6 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

My problem is that I, as the TO, didn’t know there was another round in the rifle. I screwed up. (Yes, the shooter screwed up even more.) 

I don't think you screwed up.

 

If you think you screwed up then we'll never be able to get folks to take the Timer...this is the problem with what SASS wants out of it's T.O.'s. They want them to be this hovering god...that ain't going to happen and it shouldn't be expected!

 

The fault is solely on the SHOOTER!!! Why on God's Green Earth did he/she pull the fricking trigger?????

 

Phantom

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4 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

My problem is that I, as the TO, didn’t know there was another round in the rifle. I screwed up. (Yes, the shooter screwed up even more.) 

 

Job description for being a good TO does not require being a

Svengali.

 

I have heard of and actually witnessed rifles that had a

round stuck in the mag tube.  Who knows how You, 3 spotters

and the shooter counted to 10 and then another round 

fired off at the ULT.

 

..........Widder

 

 

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To both Phantom and Widder I understand and agree 100%. But you both know darn good and well you still feel bad if you think you could have helped the shooter more. 

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1 minute ago, Shooting Bull said:

To both Phantom and Widder I understand and agree 100%. But you both know darn good and well you still feel bad if you think you could have helped the shooter more. 

I always feel bad as I'm sure WidderBorg does...and any reasonable humanbeing, when you miss helping the shooter out.

 

Which leads to the reason that I think Coaching should be limited in scope. Many folks don't want to take the Timer because of all the crap that a T.O. must deal with. If it was just Safety issue, it'd be a lot easier job.

 

Phantom

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34 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I always feel bad as I'm sure WidderBorg does...and any reasonable humanbeing, when you miss helping the shooter out.

 

Which leads to the reason that I think Coaching should be limited in scope. Many folks don't want to take the Timer because of all the crap that a T.O. must deal with. If it was just Safety issue, it'd be a lot easier job.

 

Phantom

I felt bad when Phantom earned his Trifeca. Not as bad as last time I earned one.

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On 6/5/2021 at 8:53 PM, Doc Shapiro said:

Yup, sure is up to the whims of the peanut gallery.  Same way as it's up to the whims of spotters that just don't see the edge hit on the rifle target, and didn't hear the ding.

 

That's the frustrating part for me.  Scoring in this game is ultimately subjective, not objective. 

These are two things that drive me nuts. Spotters want me to see their edge hit when they are shooting so they damn well better look for mine! I had three edges yesterday! I had outstanding spotters and thanked them - I thought 2 were misses. As for peanut gallery… when I am a Posse Marshal, I ask the posse except for spotters/TO to be quiet and not holler out stuff. It’s distracting and, in my opinion, especially with a new shooter, can cause safety issues… as in OP… new shooter returns to rifle - what if they laid down a cocked pistol or dropped it etc… 

 

It’s also a matter of respect for the shooter on the line to give him or her your FULL ATTENTION as a Spotter.  Make sure you’re in a good location to see the targets.

 

If we did all this, improper coaching reshoots wouldn’t be as often and… we know that conversations about allowing any reshoot takes FOREVER and really slowdown a posse and throw off the “groove” so to speak. 
 

Big hugs and can’t wait to see/meet a bunch of y’all at EOT!!

Scarlett

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Yesterday, as RO I saved three shooters from penalties because I opened my mouth. If I see a problem and I don't think they do, I'm gonna say something. There are exceptions, so don't think I believe there aren't. I also assess the ability of the shooter (mostly) and guide as necessary. We have very experienced (and fast) shooters that I probably won't coach, moistly because of their speed and making things worse if I do say something; and we have inexperienced shooters as well. If you look lost, I'm probably gonna walk you through the stage. Should you pay better attention? Yep. Should you watch other shooters and ask questions if you're not sure? Yep. But we don't live in a perfect world and we get the shooters that we get. Will I be impartial when it comes to coaching? The best I can. Gave assistance to a shooter competing against my daughter and saved a penalty, but wasn't able to save a P on my own kid. I'll do the best I can for ALL shooters. Sometimes that's coaching them through, sometimes it's shuttin the heck up. And yes, the peanut gallery's dribble can be very distracting; shut your traps and give the respect and consideration you'd want.

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7 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

Person shot the stage clean.

Yesterday is going to haunt me for years.

I’ve had far too many instances where my action or inaction cost the shooter. They all haunt me and always will.

I don’t want to be put in a position where I could help a shooter but am not allowed to.

I don’t think I’d be able to stand there silently and watch someone ruin their match. :( 

Ok - First.

I have shot with you for way too many years to let you get away with a pity party.

You are a fantastic TO and no ones error is your fault.

 

Second - the shooter (per your post) shot the stage clean - meaning you AND three other folks ALL saw the required number of shots expended.

The shooter OVERLOADED the gun - zero you can do as a TO regarding that.

The shooter MISHANDLED their firearm and had a negligent discharge at the unloading table.

Neither of these are your fault and neither reflect on you as a TO.

The MDQ is entirely on the shooter (as it should be)

 

Third - NO ONE has said anything about allowing unsafe actions to occur and certainly no one is advocating for turning a blind eye to unsafe actions.

 

Fourth - We do not award or assign penalties - the shooter EARNS their penalties for their actions or inactions.

Anything the shooter earns - is exactly what they they deserve.

 

And lastly - You don't want to ruin ANYONES match - not just the shooters you TO for.

But if you save a shooter from THEIR earned penalty and another TO does not - have you now "ruined" the match for the shooter with the lesser skilled TO? 

 

 

 

 

 

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Yesterday I shot my pistols and rifle then headed for my shotgun on the right table.  As I approached the table I reached down to pull 3 shells and realized I had taken off my bandolier during a delay and neglected to put it back on. My fault. Not the TO.  I will modify my routine and add a slide to my belt just in case. 

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As Creeker said: 

"Fourth - We do not award or assign penalties - the shooter EARNS their penalties for their actions or inactions.

Anything the shooter earns - is exactly what they they deserve."

 

That's all that needs to be said about this subject in a nutshell. Time for for folks to look in the mirror and stop blaming everything and everyone else.  Thank you!!

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20 minutes ago, Long Hunter SASS #20389L said:

That's all that needs to be said about this subject in a nutshell. Time for for folks to look in the mirror and stop blaming everything and everyone else.  Thank you!!

Amen!

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