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22 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

The sad thing is, we all know there is a problem - but there is no will to fix it.

 

Let someone ask about the adhesive method to affix sight coloring to their pistols and, oh man - the ROC has to convene and hammer out a ruling.

Because doggone - the difference between tape and glue is earth shattering.

 

But a major and prevalent issue such as uneven coaching, improper direction, input from non match officials and the impact of team shooting - an actual meaningful COMPETITION issue?

Crickets.

 

I will tell you this - if I were to decide to return to a club leadership position again; the first rule I would implement would be "No Coaching" PERIOD.

If it is NOT a safety issue requiring immediate ceasefire (of the stage or an individual firearm) - the stage belongs to the shooter.

Your results on the scoresheet will represent your EFFORTS solely.

Not the skillset or lack of skillset from your spotters or TO.

 

I would encourage all other Club Officers and Match Directors to implement the same.

Announce this as a condition of your monthly matches/ annual events and Championship shoots.

We are all allowed to implement additional range specific rules. 

And as NO coaching is specifically mentioned as not grounds for reshoot (and by its mention offers it as a viable possibility) - All SASS rules would still apply and the position of TO to SAFELY assist the shooter would still be in affect - Just assistance would actually apply to safety alone - not performance.

 

If change on this issue is not going to come from the front - then the change will have to come from the grassroots.

 

 

 

 

^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^

 

But you forgot Tumbleweeds....Crickets and Tumbleweeds...

 

:rolleyes:

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As Creeker said:  "Fourth - We do not award or assign penalties - the shooter EARNS their penalties for their actions or inactions. Anything the shooter earns - is exactly what they they des

I'd cut some slack for the Brand New Shooter...just once.   And yes, our rules on coaching suck! There is NO WAY to know who is giving you advice. In my opinion, there should be NO coaching.

The best T.O. in the world is not going to make someone else beat you if you do your job. If you want to win then you need to shoot the best match. Anyone that needs to be coached on any stage is loos

Perfect timing Phantom.

You are now at the top of Page 2 and Page 3.

;)

 

Heck, I ain't even that good!

 

..........Widder

 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Perfect timing Phantom.

You are now at the top of Page 2 and Page 3.

;)

 

Heck, I ain't even that good!

 

..........Widder

 

Yeah...takes God given talent doesn't it.

 

;)

 

But I'm about to bud out. All has been said that can be said. I think Creeker nailed it in that nothing will be done until someone that has the ability to enact a change takes the issue seriously...or tells us folks that think there is a problem that the problem only exists in our heads.

 

Phantom

Edited by Phantom, SASS #54973
My spelling really does suck...
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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'm open to calling SG targets "UP"...or "Again"...It's reeeeeal hard to stop that command since it comes from just about everyone on the posse and is consistent across posses. There is really no advantage from one T.O. to another. It's all about trying to be as consistent as possible across all posses (squads).

 

The first time I ever encountered, "UP!" after I missed a SG target I actually stopped and turned around.  Had no idea what the posse members from another area of the country were yelling about. 

 

We don't do that "around here". 

 

Might as well have been a 'cease fire' command.

 

Normally I don't pay any attention to the peanut gallery, but when you have 7-9 people yelling something you stop.

 

 

Edited by Stump Water
I wasn't done.
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3 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

 

The first time I ever encountered, "UP!" after I missed a SG target I actually stopped and turned around.  Had no idea what the posse members from another area of the country were yelling about. 

 

We don't do that "around here". 

 

Might as well have been a 'cease fire' command.

 

 

 

 

That's funny! 

 

I was at my first Texas State Championship after having spent my first 4 1/2 years in So. Cal when I was running the timer and called out "Again!" when the shooter left a SG target up.

 

Boy howdy was he mad at me!!

 

In Texas it's "Up!"...he thought I said...god knows what...it confused him...ugh! Not a good situation.

 

That was 12...13 years ago and I can't remember the what the outcome of the confusion was.

 

Damn T.O. trying to help...maybe that was when I started hating Coaching...that and W3G not allowing coaching or restarts and everything ran just fine.

 

Phantom

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Phantoms post also underlies the need (which I lobbied for 15 years ago) of STANDARDIZED commands for the TO.

 

Mandatory use of a minimal number of standard SAFETY commands.

Elimination of all other non safety related commands.

Next thing you know - we are much closer to shooting the same game by the same rules.

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True but nearly unbelievable story.

 

I was within my 1st year of CAS/SASS when a Cowboy

finished a stage with 1 of his SG targets still standing.

 

No, it was not a bounce back up.  It was a clear miss.

 

Anyhow, when he walked to the ULT, I called ONE MISS.

He argued that because No One yelled 'UP' while he was

shooting, it could not be penalized as a Miss.

TO agreed with the shooter and he was given 'Clean'

for the stage.

 

I stated that I was not aware of anything in the rules that

REQUIRED a spotter to yell UP for the shooter for the SG

KD's.

 

..........Widder

 

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4 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

True but nearly unbelievable story.

 

I was within my 1st year of CAS/SASS when a Cowboy

finished a stage with 1 of his SG targets still standing.

 

No, it was not a bounce back up.  It was a clear miss.

 

Anyhow, when he walked to the ULT, I called ONE MISS.

He argued that because No One yelled 'UP' while he was

shooting, it could not be penalized as a Miss.

TO agreed with the shooter and he was given 'Clean'

for the stage.

 

I stated that I was not aware of anything in the rules that

REQUIRED a spotter to yell UP for the shooter for the SG

KD's.

 

..........Widder

 

The T.O. was an idiot...and the shooter is a *%&#!!!!

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1 hour ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

What prize does old Shooting Bull get?

He said this would get 3 pages!!!

 

The Cadillac!  I WIN THE CADILLAC!!! :lol:

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On 6/7/2021 at 1:58 PM, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I will tell you this - if I were to decide to return to a club leadership position again; the first rule I would implement would be "No Coaching" PERIOD.

If it is NOT a safety issue requiring immediate ceasefire (of the stage or an individual firearm) - the stage belongs to the shooter.

Your results on the scoresheet will represent your EFFORTS solely.

Not the skillset or lack of skillset from your spotters or TO.

 

 

You know darn good and well how much you and I agree on the competition portion of this game.  But we seem to be losing sight of the fact it's a game.  As evidenced by my performance this past weekend I'm also a member of the getting older and more forgetful club.  You were witness to me having a 100% mental meltdown in the middle of a stage.  If the TO hadn't gotten me back on track I might still be standing there with that stupid look on my face.  I had more FUN playing this GAME because the TO coached me. 

 

I'm in complete agreement with you and Phantom that the issue needs to be addressed.  But I don't thing completely eliminating coaching is the proper solution.  

 

In the words of your hero Madd Mike, your mileage may vary.   :)

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Some thoughts from a still quite new shooter:

 

In other sports, the coach and the referee isn't the same person.

 

If a coach tells me something, then it's still an option, a recommendation. But if the TO gives me an instruction, I follow that instruction, no matter what. He's the referee. I don't argue his decision in that moment. I may ask after the ULT and if I disagree with something I may start a discussion and maybe object the ruling. But this means that the TO should only give instructions to prohibit safety issues, incidents that would result in a MSV or even DQ. Not because of the penalty, but for the safety.

 

If there's just a choice to make in the game the TO should not try "tactical coaching" to just lead me to better time, avoid a P or a miss.  So, if I want to put my rifle down after only 9 shots a "one more" is appropriate to avoid the safety issue of restaging a loaded firearm. But if I had one round jacked out he should remain silent instead of instructing me to reload one. If I prefer a miss or if I get a P then it's just part of this game!

 

It's a different story if I lose track and actively seek for input by asking or give a look to the TO to know how I should proceed. Then, some coaching is imho appropriate.

 

So long, Equanimous

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I’ve been all over the board in this game. 30 yrs ago I was 6 yrs old playing Cowboy and having more fun than imaginable. As I got better at playing the game I went through my Competitive phase. Still fun but not as much as before. Everything became much more serious. Rules became a major focus. I’m am now in the Old Man phase of the game, where the majority of us are. The biggest determinate of Competition now days is who’s Arthritis, Hip Joint, Knee pain, Breathing difficulty or Brain Fade is giving the least problem on Match Day. Sure, everyone likes to win… that’s why we have so many categories now, but the VAST MAJORITY of those playing this game today are here more for something to do than to be a Star. If I leave a hull in the shotgun, or stop at the window instead of the door, or start to shoot the wrong gun, I appreciate it when the T.O. tells me. I believe that most folks also do. For you guys that still believe that this is truly a competitive shooting sport I would suggest that you all stop shooting in one of the Age based categories and gather into one Open category where you can all compete against each other. Getting enough to fill that category might be tough since most want the protection that Age based Categories offer. You could all just make it clear to the T.O. that your don’t want ANY COACHING what-so-ever. That might be the easiest way to solve the problem without effecting everyone else. Just a thought.

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1 hour ago, Snakebite said:

... You could all just make it clear to the T.O. that your don’t want ANY COACHING what-so-ever. That might be the easiest way to solve the problem without effecting everyone else. Just a thought.

Doesn't solve the issue of Match Consistency.

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My guess is that Match Consistency will never be

achieved due to a couple factors.

 

One of those that come to mind is because Spotters

vary to much.

First 5 shooters manage to get 3 great spotters.  They watch for 

edgers, listen and pay proper attention to those 5 shooters.

Then the next 3 shooters manage to get 1 or 2 good spotters

and 1 lousy spotter who likes to look at the other spotters

BEFORE they make their call.  They may feel bad if they have

to call a Miss or a Safety violation, so they keep quiet.

 

As for coaching, sure.... its got advantages and disadvantages

regardless of it being the TO or the Spotters..... or a Shadow.

 

Personally, I really don't like coaching for myself.

But if I seem to be having a Brain Fart Day, I have in the past

ask ONE person to yell "MOVE" on some stages that

were giving me memory problems.

As for acquiring  a MS violation,  it would be perfectly

fine with me if NO ONE yells out anything.   Not hearing well,

it would sound like Chinese to me and only confuse me

from completing the stage in a more timely manner.

 

..........Widder

 

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24 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

My guess is that Match Consistency will never be

achieved due to a couple factors.

 

One of those that come to mind is because Spotters

vary to much.

First 5 shooters manage to get 3 great spotters.  They watch for 

edgers, listen and pay proper attention to those 5 shooters.

Then the next 3 shooters manage to get 1 or 2 good spotters

and 1 lousy spotter who likes to look at the other spotters

BEFORE they make their call.  They may feel bad if they have

to call a Miss or a Safety violation, so they keep quiet.

 

..........Widder

 

Baby steps.

First we fix/ minimize coaching so that the shooters performance stands on its own. 

Eliminate the inconsistency of team shooting.

Eliminate all outside input excepting those required for the safe completion of a stage or immediate ceasefire. (meaning MSV are on the shooter to correct or eat)

Create/ Implement a standardized command list; so the same SAFETY command terms are used match to match - TO to TO.

 

Then we fix/ minimize spotting so the shooters verifiable results stand on their own.

I would like to see paint between shooters required at State Championship and above shoots.

Spotters solely used for P calls and safety.

 

Just these items would immediately make match results less a reflection of the skillsets (or lack thereof) of the TO and spotters.

And more representative of the shooters actual performance/ abilities.

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I am torn, I do see both side of the situation. But here is a fact that some just don't grasp, 99% of the people playing this game just don't care if you win or not. YOU are the only one that really cares. I can and will issue sincere congrats if your win, it takes a lot of work, but on my Oath care much more if the people playing this game have/had fun and enjoy the game. Nobody even knows who won your category at the last big match, but everyone remembers if they had a good time at the match. If stopping all coaching would help in that regard I could get behind it 100%, however, I do not believe it would help and I don't think that most folks would support the action. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be a Knot Head,  but IMO this game needs to do what the masses want. Through out the years I've witnessed first hand all the changes that came about because of a few folks that wanted the game to be more of a real and true shooting competition. Well it is a competition but it is also much more.  Making room for everyone is a good goal. I proposed an Open Category MANY years ago, a place for those that are intensely interested in competition to battle it out with others that want the same thing. It didn't get off the ground I'm sorry to say. But this game is not about just YOU or ME, it is about everyone. If there is a real and widespread desire to stop all coaching, then the folks need to take it to their TG, and hopefully it can come to a vote.

 

Snakebite

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35 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Baby steps.

First we fix/ minimize coaching so that the shooters performance stands on its own. 

Eliminate the inconsistency of team shooting.

Eliminate all outside input excepting those required for the safe completion of a stage or immediate ceasefire. (meaning MSV are on the shooter to correct or eat)

Create/ Implement a standardized command list; so the same SAFETY command terms are used match to match - TO to TO.

 

Then we fix/ minimize spotting so the shooters verifiable results stand on their own.

I would like to see paint between shooters required at State Championship and above shoots.

Spotters solely used for P calls and safety.

 

Just these items would immediately make match results less a reflection of the skillsets (or lack thereof) of the TO and spotters.

And more representative of the shooters actual performance/ abilities.

 

Once again you and I are in perfect alignment when it comes to serious competition.  We both love to compete and we love to win.  But above all we want our victories to be fair, not due to an inattentive spotter or a slow TO. 

 

That being said, we can never lose sight of something you continually try to beat into people's heads, this is supposed to be entertainment.  "We" (Match officials) do this for our customers.  As much as serious competitors want your suggestions implemented you still need to walk a fine line between competition and entertainment.  Will your above suggestions enhance or detract from the entertainment value for the average and below average shooters?  As I referenced above, I consider myself to be slightly above average and even my entertainment was increased by proper coaching by the TO during a mental meltdown.

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5 hours ago, Snakebite said:

For you guys that still believe that this is truly a competitive shooting sport I would suggest that you all stop shooting in one of the Age based categories and gather into one Open category where you can all compete against each other

 

When someone suggests that everyone competitive drop into the open category, it sure does give the shaft to everyone in the 17-35 age bracket don't it?

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38 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

When someone suggests that everyone competitive drop into the open category, it sure does give the shaft to everyone in the 17-35 age bracket don't it?

Sorry, You are of course correct... I would not want that to happen. It would require a true "Open Category" for the purpose given. I've always opposed folks "Category Shopping" by moving down in Age Based categories. I would prefer that anyone shooting in a Age Based category shoot in their own age group. Right now that doesn't happen.

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3 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I would like to see paint between shooters required at State Championship and above shoots.

 

There are a lot of logistical issues with this, not including instances where paint might north stick when it is raining...

 

Whole lot of places still have a common firing line. Heck, even the place set to hold our world championships starting in 2022 would have an issue doing that. Not saying whether or not the idea has merit, but it is a big change. Almost fundamental. Change that big, would it almost be better to get away from steel?

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4 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

My guess is that Match Consistency will never be

achieved due to a couple factors.

 

One of those that come to mind is because Spotters

vary to much.

First 5 shooters manage to get 3 great spotters.  They watch for 

edgers, listen and pay proper attention to those 5 shooters.

Then the next 3 shooters manage to get 1 or 2 good spotters

and 1 lousy spotter who likes to look at the other spotters

BEFORE they make their call.  They may feel bad if they have

to call a Miss or a Safety violation, so they keep quiet.

 

As for coaching, sure.... its got advantages and disadvantages

regardless of it being the TO or the Spotters..... or a Shadow.

 

Personally, I really don't like coaching for myself.

But if I seem to be having a Brain Fart Day, I have in the past

ask ONE person to yell "MOVE" on some stages that

were giving me memory problems.

As for acquiring  a MS violation,  it would be perfectly

fine with me if NO ONE yells out anything.   Not hearing well,

it would sound like Chinese to me and only confuse me

from completing the stage in a more timely manner.

 

..........Widder

 

Ah Widderborg...ya know I love ya (not in that way...), but just there will always be subjectivity in SASS competitions doesn't mean you don't try and eliminate it where possible.

 

Phantom (not that there's anything wrong with that...)

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5 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Ah Widderborg...ya know I love ya (not in that way...), but just there will always be subjectivity in SASS competitions doesn't mean you don't try and eliminate it where possible.

 

Phantom (not that there's anything wrong with that...)

 

I agree.   If I were ever to be given a vote about TO Coaching,

I would vote..... No Coaching for Veteran Shooters.   

Newbies (first few matches) exempt but ONLY if they request

assistance.

 

..........Widder

 

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1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

I agree.   If I were ever to be given a vote about TO Coaching,

I would vote..... No Coaching for Veteran Shooters.   

Newbies (first few matches) exempt but ONLY if they request

assistance.

 

..........Widder

 

And this is completely appropriate.

Or have shooters acknowledge on the application that they solicit and will accept coaching - knowing that this removes them from the group contending to win a Championship.

 

 

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All the more reason for a true open division with no coaching, shoot it any way you want at any age you want.  Get rid of so many divisions and keep things closer to what they are now.   

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12 minutes ago, Kirk James said:

All the more reason for a true open division with no coaching, shoot it any way you want at any age you want.  Get rid of so many divisions and keep things closer to what they are now.   

I'm not against an Open Category...but then again, I'm open to having sponsor logos on shooters clothes...but anyway...

 

I would like to see the consistency of No Coaching being realized in ALL categories. Believe it or not, some of us old guys that don't want to play in that Open category would like to see their category move closer to a real competition.

 

Phantom

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15 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I don't see where a more consistent match excludes folks from having fun...

 

If a shooter has a brain fart in the middle of a stage the TO's help increases their fun level.  It's my ever so humble opinion this is true no matter how experienced the shooter. 

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7 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

If a shooter has a brain fart in the middle of a stage the TO's help increases their fun level.  It's my ever so humble opinion this is true no matter how experienced the shooter. 

 

I would not dare argue against your point.  Its got merit.

 

BUT.... I gotta say that some of the biggest laughs we get

from a match (and memories) are from those brain farts

and the manner in which we handle them.

One of my brightest moments in SASS history is when I had a

split pistol stage and decided to shoot it DD style.

Guess WHO forgot to draw their 2nd revolver at the end

of his SG and rifle shooting string?

 

Mammeries..... isn't that one of Elvis best songs?

:lol:

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

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55 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

If a shooter has a brain fart in the middle of a stage the TO's help increases their fun level.  It's my ever so humble opinion this is true no matter how experienced the shooter. 

Hmmm...so we wish to coddle...? Don't want anyone to have anything less than the full possible enjoyment of the day regardless of their actions? Don't think I would feel like the "winner" if I won because I had a better T.O...and my "fun" factor would be diminished somewhat.

 

Folks that know me know I want everyone to have a great time at a match. But on their own accord and not dependent on whether they have a good T.O. or not...isn't remembering the stage instructions part of this game? Yes, I have brain farts. But I'd rather have no one help me so that the competition is level and not dependent on luck (good T.O or bad T.O.).

 

Phantom

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2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Hmmm...so we wish to coddle...? Don't want anyone to have anything less than the full possible enjoyment of the day regardless of their actions? Don't think I would feel like the "winner" if I won because I had a better T.O...and my "fun" factor would be diminished somewhat.

 

Folks that know me know I want everyone to have a great time at a match. But on their own accord and not dependent on whether they have a good T.O. or not...isn't remembering the stage instructions part of this game? Yes, I have brain farts. But I'd rather have no one help me so that the competition is level and not dependent on luck (good T.O or bad T.O.).

 

Phantom

 

In the above highlighted you're speaking in absolute terms.  That doesn't work.  No such thing as black and white when dealing with issues like this.  We'll ALWAYS be tap dancing on a fine line trying to please the most people possible. 

 

I addressed competition earlier when I was responding to Creeker.  I'm absolutely 100% on your side.  My fun comes from competition. I compete to win.  But if I do happen to win I want it to be on a level playing field, not by the luck of having a good TO or blind spotters.  

 

I don't have a clue how many competitors feel the way we do but I'd venture a guess that it's less than 50%.  Therefore we have to put our own feelings aside and cater to the majority.  Full blown hold their hand and walk them though every aspect of a stage?  No, of course not.  Again, walk that fine line but err on the side of fun for the majority. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

In the above highlighted you're speaking in absolute terms.  That doesn't work.  No such thing as black and white when dealing with issues like this.  We'll ALWAYS be tap dancing on a fine line trying to please the most people possible. 

 

I addressed competition earlier when I was responding to Creeker.  I'm absolutely 100% on your side.  My fun comes from competition. I compete to win.  But if I do happen to win I want it to be on a level playing field, not by the luck of having a good TO or blind spotters.  

 

I don't have a clue how many competitors feel the way we do but I'd venture a guess that it's less than 50%.  Therefore we have to put our own feelings aside and cater to the majority.  Full blown hold their hand and walk them though every aspect of a stage?  No, of course not.  Again, walk that fine line but err on the side of fun for the majority. 

 

Of course you could be right...that we're in the minority.

 

Would be interesting to see if there was a way to know this.

 

While I'll continue to play this game...at least for now...the way it is, I'll also continue to express my thoughts on these issues as I'm sure you will. I do find it interesting that folks are a-okay with having an inconsistent match. That somehow if you take away coaching you'll ruin the fun of CAS. Just don't get it...unless folks so adore the idea that LUCK should determine the outcome of a match.

 

Phantom

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Of course you could be right...that we're in the minority.

 

Would be interesting to see if there was a way to know this.

 

While I'll continue to play this game...at least for now...the way it is, I'll also continue to express my thoughts on these issues as I'm sure you will. I do find it interesting that folks are a-okay with having an inconsistent match. That somehow if you take away coaching you'll ruin the fun of CAS. Just don't get it...unless folks so adore the idea that LUCK should determine the outcome of a match.

 

Phantom

 

 

And that's exactly where I have to step out of my own skin and try to see it from someone else's point of view.  How many times do you see right here on the Wire that folks are out there just to have fun? They don't give a lick about competition.  And the folks that do have any interest at all in competition all have different definitions of what's "fair".  That's also demonstrated here.

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1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

 

And that's exactly where I have to step out of my own skin and try to see it from someone else's point of view.  How many times do you see right here on the Wire that folks are out there just to have fun? They don't give a lick about competition.  And the folks that do have any interest at all in competition all have different definitions of what's "fair".  That's also demonstrated here.

 

I read the "I'm just there for fun - I don't care about how I shoot" posts all the time - same as you.

I have played this game for a long time - I don't know that I have ever met one of these people.

But IF they don't care about how they shoot - then eliminating or minimizing coaching should have zero affect on their enjoyment.

 

But fine - let clubs make the monthlies anything they want to do (it's what they do already anyways)

But at a minimum, CHAMPIONSHIP level matches need to be operated like a competition.

Minimal coaching (to be determined - acceptable levels) and MAJOR safety commands (ceasefire/ Squib) from TO.  

ZERO coaching (excepting ceasefire/ squib commands) by Spotters or Posse members.

 

The other thing to consider is - You mentioned having a brain fade and the TO saving you.

It has happened to all of us.

But "maybe" if we knew we were completely on our own - we might (maybe, possibly, theres a chance) do a better job prepping/ focusing ourselves before we shoot.

AND if we lost our way - we wouldn't stop and stand there befuddled - hoping someone will save us.  

Our thought would be,"(insert curse word of choice)" and soldier thru as fast as possible.

Resigned to eating 10 seconds - but knowing its a long match; others may have brain fade as well and no one is going to save them either. 

So if I lose - it's because I lost - I won't get beat because someone else had a better, quicker, more focused TO.   

 

 

 

 

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