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Philosophical question regarding State Championship Matches


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First, if you are thinking that I'm calling your club out, I'm not. This post is made with the sole intention of finding out what others think!

 

Say you have a Club that put on it's first State match in a long time. They say they're going to put in for the State match for the next year.

 

Do you, as a Board Member of another Club in the same State put off your application to run the State match for the next year or do you go ahead and submit your application knowing that the other club wants a 2nd year?

 

Myself and my general crew think it's bad form to challenge the Club for the next year State match. We believe that the first year, because you put so much money into getting your club ready, usually puts you in the Red. The second year is when your club can bank some $$...hopefully.

 

Stipulation: The club that ran the State match (this year), ran an okay match...was nothing done that "hurt" SASS's reputation, etc, etc.

 

Phantom

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I feel they deserve a second shot. As many of us are aware it seems a club has to "give up" a match rather than loses it. What I mean is once a club has ensconced itself into the state match it tends to stay that way unless they decide to give it up or something grossly inappropriate happens. I am recalling an incident about the time I was beginning shooting that happened south of here.

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4 minutes ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

I feel they deserve a second shot. As many of us are aware it seems a club has to "give up" a match rather than loses it. What I mean is once a club has ensconced itself into the state match it tends to stay that way unless they decide to give it up or something grossly inappropriate happens. I am recalling an incident about the time I was beginning shooting that happened south of here.

Yea...I'm of the belief that after the second year, it's up for grabs...but I like a club getting first dibs on the next year if they've only had the State for one year.

 

Phantom

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Howdy Phantom.

 

I would think some variables should also be considered.

First..... you make a good and valid point.   The standing club should be considered for 1st refusals.

 

I would also think that the reputation earned by the host club should be considered, along

with attendance at that particular venue.

If ONLY club members attended with only a handful of 'outsiders', then another host club

might be better suited for MORE SASS members to attend.

 

..........Widder

 

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29 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Howdy Phantom.

 

I would think some variables should also be considered.

First..... you make a good and valid point.   The standing club should be considered for 1st refusals.

 

I would also think that the reputation earned by the host club should be considered, along

with attendance at that particular venue.

If ONLY club members attended with only a handful of 'outsiders', then another host club

might be better suited for MORE SASS members to attend.

 

..........Widder

 

I agree...I kinda hinted at that in my "Stipulations" above. Should have been more specific.

 

Let's say that the Club that just put on the State Match did an adequate job...

 

Phantom

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Posted (edited)

I ran a State Championship Match for a number of years; as Match Director/ Vice President and President of a Club (around 15 years or so).

I would have fully understood another club saying, "Hey, we would like to take a shot at it". 

 

But if you are going to go after the State Match - do it for the right reasons.  (not saying this applies to you, Phantom {or anyone else} - I am just talking here)

Don't do it for ego.

But, because you can do it better.

Because your attendees deserve better.

Because maybe you have a better range.

Because the shooter deserves a better match (writing, target quality, placements, etc.).

Because maybe you have better budgeting skills for awards, amenities or ancillary events.

Maybe you have access to a larger population that will increase attendance.

 

I also think any club that wishes to take a State Match should have to have a track record of a "Successful" annual match for a couple years before they could be considered for a Championship level match.

This proves all of the above points are in place before a change is made.

 

But at the end of the day - no club "deserves" anything.

And simply adequate is obviously not good enough.

If another club wants the match more and can demonstrate the benefit of a change - they should certainly make the attempt.

 

 

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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13 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I ran a State Championship Match for a number of years; as Match Director/ Vice President and President of a Club (around 15 years or so).

I would have fully understood another club saying, "Hey, we would like to take a shot at it". 

 

But if you are going to go after the State Match - do it for the right reasons.  (not saying this applies to you, Phantom {or anyone else} - I am just talking here)

Don't do it for ego.

But, because you can do it better.

Because your attendees deserve better.

Because maybe you have a better range.

Because the shooter deserves a better match (writing, target quality, placements, etc.).

Because maybe you have better budgeting skills for awards, amenities or ancillary events.

Maybe you have access to a larger population that will increase attendance.

 

I also think any club that wishes to take a State Match should have to have a track record of a "Successful" annual match for a couple years before they could be considered for a Championship level match.

This proves all of the above points are in place before a change is made.

 

But at the end of the day - no club "deserves" anything.

And simply adequate is obviously not good enough.

If another club wants the match more and can demonstrate the benefit of a change - they should certainly make the attempt.

 

 

First, this question has nothing to do with me or any of the clubs I'm involved with. While I've been involved in a few State matches...I'm not out like soooo many others looking for that Regulator Badge.

 

My use of the word "adequate" was probably not a good choice. Let's say that it was a "Good match that could use a little improvement". Partially because they haven't run a State match in a long time. But for the most part, it was good...and let's say that they learned from their first year.

 

I guess part of my opinion is based on the State match being a benefit to the hosting club as much as to the shooters and SASS. That we as members of SASS want to see more clubs continue on being a club. And that a large State match can bring some need $$ into the club. Having a one-off State match can leave a club in a financial deficit as they invested a lot of money into making the range just right. If given the 2nd year, they can recoup and hopefully put some much need $$ into their bank account.

 

Obviously if a club is in a good financial position and doesn't need to do much improvements then a one year State match run would suffice. But most clubs aren't like this. If we want to spread the State Match around...that ain't going to happen if all you have are the "Big" clubs running the State since the risk is too high for the smaller clubs.

 

And yes, no club "deserves" anything...don't think I used the word "deserves"...I can go back and look but I'm too lazy. My position is not one of a Club deserving anything. My position is that Clubs within a State should care for the well being of other Clubs (to a certain extent). I'm of the belief that if we want smaller (but capable), Clubs to be involved with the State match, we should support the 2 year gig. If a small club never steps out of their comfort zone, fine! But those that do should be given a little consideration on running the match for a 2nd year. What's the point in being a SASS affiliated Club if you stick your neck out and get it lopped off?

 

Sorry for the long winded post...

 

Phantom

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Sorry for the long winded post...

Phantom

I like long winded posts - as brevity rarely accompanies clarity.

I apologize for having misconstrued your original post.

These were not your words, but my assessment of your words (apparently incorrect),

"A club did ok. Nothing seriously wrong. 

Adequate .  Should they be entitled to a 2nd year to improve the event or to at least recoup their investment?"

 

"Or is it "Ok" for another club to request the match?"

 

You never used the word deserves (Ill save you from looking).

 

So to simply answer your question.

It should be a simple meritocracy.

If another club can present an argument for changing the venue with a compelling reason or improvement to the event (and they wish to do so) then they should make the attempt - regardless of the length of time (one year or twenty) the other club has hosted the event.

Because it is supposed to be about the quality of the event presented to the shooters - not about the coffers of the club.

 

All that being said; various apologies and mea culpas.  Blah, blah and etc.

And I aint worried about getting a Regulator Badge - my lack of political acumen ruled that out a long time ago.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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Our club has hosted our state match for 17 years and annuals for 5.  Several years ago we decided that we had run it enough and opted to just return to an annual.  Slipnoose was in the SASS office at the time and reached out to every club in the state to find another host club to no avail.  Our main club (we are a shooting discipline of a larger sportsman's club) and a handful of cowboys decided to try it again.  Here we are several years later with a smaller committee and now several years older.  Now, to relate this to some of the original posts.  Since no other club had wanted to take over hosting the match, and in these times, we are seeing clubs fold, it seems apparent that our club will be hosting it for years to come.  A few folks from other clubs both in and out of state thankfully chip in.  However, the majority of the "heavy lifting", both literally and figuratively, lies on our shoulders.  It's an exhausting task.  
Two clubs working together to provide the best match could be a favorable solution.  It would actually come as a relief if another club would reach out to us to with a proposal to alternate years hosting the match.  This can best be done if the clubs corresponded with each other to provide the best of both worlds for the shooters.  Every range has its pros and cons.  Each committee has its strengths and weaknesses.  Those running matches range from new members to very well seasoned members.  Some travel extensively to shoot while others do not.  Our shooters have just as much diversity.  As MD of our match, I doubt I would like to see another club simply send in the application to host the match without having known of the intention in advance.  I would wonder their intention.  Was it was our fault?  But, also as MD, I would also welcome working with another club to provide an amicable plan to alternate annually or work towards an eventual change of location.  I think the membership deserves that.  After all they are our paying customers. 

I will also add that I would likely support my state match at any locale.  

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15 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

 

 

Do you, as a Board Member of another Club in the same State put off your application to run the State match for the next year or do you go ahead and submit your application knowing that the other club wants a 2nd year?

 

 

Put it off and let them have another swing at it

 

Stan

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I’d go for letting clubs host 2 years. As many have said, 1st year lots of expense and learning. 2nd year should be better and more profitable. 


2 clubs working together would be a good thing. I’ve thought that the host club should reach out to other (maybe smaller) clubs and ask them to do a part of it. Maybe side matches, or banquet or something like that. 

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If a club has run a successful (meaning quality) annual, I would not have a problem sharing or rotating the state match so that more clubs can generate funds to help their club be successful. One of the issues we run into in my state state is a lot of the clubs are smaller, and most do not have the space to pull off a successful "big" match, so whether we have a state match kind of falls on my club. The last year due to all the Rona shutdowns  I have been racking my brain on ways to help the other clubs and what I plan to do is contact the leaders to give their clubs a change to "sponsor," food, side matches, etc. to get their club names/addresses/contact info in the match books, and share in a predefined amount of the match fees to cover their contribution. giving them any leftover funds to help their club

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Let SASS make the decision of which club would best represent them in the State. It is after all an application.

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16 minutes ago, Barkeep Casey said:

Let SASS make the decision of which club would best represent them in the State. It is after all an application.

 

When two (or more) clubs submit applications to host a State Championship, SASS HQ contacts the Territorial Governors of that state via email ballot to determine which club receives the sanctioning.

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45 minutes ago, Barkeep Casey said:

Let SASS make the decision of which club would best represent them in the State. It is after all an application.

This doesn't address the philosophical question asked...I'm fully aware of the "Official" mechanism for choosing a host club. Please reference the O.P.

 

Thanks...

 

Phantom

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Another aspect to consider in moving a state championship around is the size of the state involved.  It can be a LONG away in a state such as Texas, California or Alaska.

 

Phantom, I think your question is a good one and agree the 2 year "term" deserves consideration, given the stipulations are met.

 

Possum

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8 hours ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

Put it off and let them have another swing at it

 

Stan

 

Agree.

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On 6/3/2021 at 5:15 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

...Do you, as a Board Member of another Club in the same State put off your application to run the State match for the next year or do you go ahead and submit your application knowing that the other club wants a 2nd year?....

Rancher #1 grazes his cattle on the open range.  Now Ranger #2 moves into the territory and wants to graze his cattle on the open range too.   Problem is the range grass can't support two herds.  If Rancher #2 petitions the government to revoke Rancher #1 open range permit and reissues the permit to Ranger #2 do you think that would cause a range war?

 

What would John Wayne do if he was Rancher #1? 

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25 minutes ago, Matthew Duncan said:

Rancher #1 grazes his cattle on the open range.  Now Ranger #2 moves into the territory and wants to graze his cattle on the open range too.   Problem is the range grass can't support two herds.  If Rancher #2 petitions the government to revoke Rancher #1 open range permit and reissues the permit to Ranger #2 do you think that would cause a range war?

 

What would John Wayne do if he was Rancher #1? 

Well I would think that JW would think that Rancher No.2 was being a No. 2...I think...

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There is some good thought to what you present here, Phantom...especially when you consider that contracts for Regionals are in 3 year terms.

 

To me, you really can't get a good vibe with just one. You'll learn a lot from that one that you can hopefully do better the next time. 

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Posted (edited)

I get it.

Kinda like kids...

Your 'first' one is always labor intensive, always afraid of making a mistake, often over doing/over thinking, ect.

But the 'second' one? Well, you have learned some things, gotten to know a flow, how to better some things and where to relax some things.

 

If the club that wants to take it a second year running...and your club feels it can do the State match justice...then by all means, step aside.

If not...apply in good standing.

(PS: if you did not like the prior match, voluteer for the next one)

A plus for an above comment.

DON'T apply for State because of EGO!!!!

Edited by Singin' Sue 71615
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On 6/4/2021 at 6:08 PM, Hoss said:

I’d go for letting clubs host 2 years. As many have said, 1st year lots of expense and learning. 2nd year should be better and more profitable. 


2 clubs working together would be a good thing. I’ve thought that the host club should reach out to other (maybe smaller) clubs and ask them to do a part of it. Maybe side matches, or banquet or something like that. 

 

This is sort of how it works in NSW Australia.

 

In NSW there is one club that has the best facilities and set up to run the State Shoot. They "hire" out the range to other clubs to run the shoot at their club.

 

So every year we go to the same location but the clubs share the responsibility (liability?) of costs and the work to run the shoot (I'm sure the locals are there helping out as well). Some of the clubs are working on their ranges and permissions so hopefully we will have other locations in a year or two.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Matthew Duncan said:

Rancher #1 grazes his cattle on the open range.  Now Ranger #2 moves into the territory and wants to graze his cattle on the open range too.   Problem is the range grass can't support two herds.  If Rancher #2 petitions the government to revoke Rancher #1 open range permit and reissues the permit to Ranger #2 do you think that would cause a range war?

 

What would John Wayne do if he was Rancher #1? 

 

JW would go back to his trailer and wait for the script re-write. After the re-write, he would come back out of the trailer and kick some butt with his Winchester 1892 even though the movie takes place in the year 1876. Then he would announce that the club that wants to do the match for a second time, should get the chance to do it.

 

End of the movie.

Edited by Cypress Sun
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If they put on a decent match the first time, give them another shot and see if they improve. Let them keep it going unless they start to significantly decline. 

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I agree with several points made above:

1. If they run a decent match that attracts a good crowd beyond the locals, they deserve a second run to recoup the investment.

2. Geographical diversity is important,  but secondary to letting a club run a couple consecutively.

3. For those states blessed with several clubs capable of hosting a state match, it is a good idea to let it move around every couple of years.

4. By moving the state match around,  may help avoid burnout for club officers responsible for the match.

 

State matches can be a blessing and a burden. I am happy that here in Texas we have several clubs that are willing to undertake the task. 

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Believe it's way easier for a club to go a year or three without getting to run the state match than it is for a rancher to starve his cattle or sell 'em off cause his lease was revoked.  Said club can still run a nice annual and draw in operating funds if they want.  Losing your grazing lease is about as bad as losing your water rights - a death sentence.

 

good luck, GJ

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I've never run anything bigger than an annual match, so take my opinion for what it's worth.  I would defer to the club for at least the second year.  Depending upon how that second match went I might defer again.

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3 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I've never run anything bigger than an annual match, so take my opinion for what it's worth.  I would defer to the club for at least the second year.  Depending upon how that second match went I might defer again.

But you agree that it's kind of a courtesy thing to do...to give a club another year.

 

That's my opinion too...but I heard in this one case that some folks didn't like the match so they want to take it on for the next year. General consensus is that the club ran the State match fine. Yes, they can make some improvements but there was nothing so bad that they should be kept from a second year.

 

Just seems kind of childish to want to keep the current club from having a go at another year just because some folks didn't like the Stage formats...

 

Phantom

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

But you agree that it's kind of a courtesy thing to do...to give a club another year.

 

That's my opinion too...but I heard in this one case that some folks didn't like the match so they want to take it on for the next year. General consensus is that the club ran the State match fine. Yes, they can make some improvements but there was nothing so bad that they should be kept from a second year.

 

Just seems kind of childish to want to keep the current club from having a go at another year just because some folks didn't like the Stage formats...

 

Phantom

I have been on and off following this. In Colorado for at least the last nine years the practice has been to alternate state championships from the front range to the west slope each year. This was started because some of the eastern clubs (for whatever reason) didn’t want to put on a larger match and there was a possibility of not having a state match at all. The TMS TG worked with others to spread the workload into an every other year format thus encouraging participation on both sides of the mountains as far as hosting and competing at different venues. Don’t know if that is no longer a viable option or what but hope this can be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction. 
if you would like to send me a pm and I can get you my number to chat. My only focus anymore is let’s have fun and shoot. 
Regards

Gateway Kid

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Just now, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

I have been on and off following this. In Colorado for at least the last nine years the practice has been to alternate state championships from the front range to the west slope each year. This was started because some of the eastern clubs (for whatever reason) didn’t want to put on a larger match and there was a possibility of not having a state match at all. The TMS TG worked with others to spread the workload into an every other year format thus encouraging participation on both sides of the mountains as far as hosting and competing at different venues. Don’t know if that is no longer a viable option or what but hope this can be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction. 
if you would like to send me a pm and I can get you my number to chat. My only focus anymore is let’s have fun and shoot. 
Regards

Gateway Kid

Wasn't a Colorado issue that prompted me to start this thread.

 

;)

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Didn’t think so just offering help if possible. I love this game and am heartbroken when I hear of issues that could derail everyone’s enjoyment 

 

regards

Gateway

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Both clubs should count their blessings they have this level of interest and adequate facilities available. Congratulations! Sounds like an old fashion sit-down over their favorite beverages and some great food would make for an even better state match and joint succession plan.

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19 hours ago, Dungannon Gunner said:

Both clubs should count their blessings they have this level of interest and adequate facilities available. Congratulations! Sounds like an old fashion sit-down over their favorite beverages and some great food would make for an even better state match and joint succession plan.

Indeed! We are in real danger of losing our range. Long story and lots involved, but folks that have a solid place to keep up their CAS activities, should be very thankful... especially these days.

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