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Shiloh sharps question


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Posted (edited)

Reminds me of the many many times I've seen on this and that internet forum that Colt clones and cap and ball conversion cylinders [our] ARE only safe with cowboy loads.

 

I assume this is because so many internet commandos think there are only two 45 loads - cowboy loads and Ruger-only loads. They seem to have forgotten that standard ammunition exists.

Edited by Alpo
otto, when you gonna learn to spell
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If the cartridge has a SAAMI spec, such as the 45-70, their rifles will handle smokeless ammo. 
 

Most of their guns are chambered in older calibers that I wouldn’t want to shoot anything but Black Powder anyway. 
 

My 45-110 Shiloh just looooves launching big chunks of lead with large clouds of smoke. Sure makes the black rifle crowd take note. 

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2 hours ago, Charlie Harley, #14153 said:

If the cartridge has a SAAMI spec, such as the 45-70, their rifles will handle smokeless ammo. 
 

Most of their guns are chambered in older calibers that I wouldn’t want to shoot anything but Black Powder anyway. 
 

My 45-110 Shiloh just looooves launching big chunks of lead with large clouds of smoke. Sure makes the black rifle crowd take note. 

^This is correct. Would not load a smokeless load in my 50-140 cartridges and send it through the Badger Barreled C Sharps ‘74 

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Shiloh's 1863 Sharps rifles are percussion.

 

It might be considered an exercise in good judgement and wisdom to resist any urge to use modern smokeless powder in these.   ;)

 

63-PERC-CARBINE.gif   1863_sport_rifle.jpg

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8 hours ago, Happy Jack, SASS #20451 said:

All their rifles are proofed for smokeless powder.  You got some bad info.

Pard, that's not true.  Only certain calibers are proofed for smokeless.  I know .45-70 and .38-55 are, but I think that's it.  The best thing for the OP to do would be to contact Shiloh.

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The rifle in question is 45.70 and the shiloh letter attached says not approved for modern ammo only black powder.  I thought it was odd as I have always wanted a shiloh.   

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14 minutes ago, Trigger Mike said:

The rifle in question is 45.70 and the shiloh letter attached says not approved for modern ammo only black powder.  I thought it was odd as I have always wanted a shiloh.   

 

Wal, Shux, TM~!  ^_^

 

Load that puppy up with black and enjoy the heck out of it!!   :lol:

 

(And be thankful you aren't in California, where you're not allowed to have more than one pound :( )

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31 minutes ago, Trigger Mike said:

The rifle in question is 45.70 and the shiloh letter attached says not approved for modern ammo only black powder.  I thought it was odd as I have always wanted a shiloh.   

The letter that came with my 38-55 said the same thing. I called Shiloh and they said if there was a SAAMI spec, like for the 38-55, they met the spec. 
 

Probably 95% of their calibers, like the 40-70 Sharps Straight, have no spec. That’s why it’s easier to print manuals with blanket instructions of Black Powder Only.  

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1 hour ago, Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 said:

 

Wal, Shux, TM~!  ^_^

 

Load that puppy up with black and enjoy the heck out of it!!   :lol:

 

(And be thankful you aren't in California, where you're not allowed to have more than one pound :( )

1 lb, you sure?

I had way more than that delivered at a time, when I lived in Northern L.A. County.

OLG  

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6 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

1 lb, you sure?

I had way more than that delivered at a time, when I lived in Northern L.A. County.

OLG  

 

From the Calguns Foundation site:

 

Quote

 

Ammunition and Black Powder

 

Ammunition and Black/Smokeless Powder

This article refers to 'personal use'; commercial storage or manufacturing are outside the scope of this article.

Local regulations on purchase procedures, such as thumbprints and identification requirements, are outside the scope of this article.

For eligible persons, neither California nor Federal law impose any limits on purchase or storage of manufactured or reloaded ammunition.

California does place limits on storage of smokeless propellant - 20 pounds - and black powder - 1 pound.

Prohibited persons may not possess any ammunition, or reloaded ammunition (Penal Code 30305) or any ammunition components (Penal Code 16150)

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 said:

 

From the Calguns Foundation site:

 

 

 

The problem is I cannot find that statement in any of the laws that I have researched. I found it on Calguns, where you did and I found it mentioned in another forum, but not actually listed in any laws. 
 

I haven’t tried to buy blackpowder here in CA.
 

The laws I have found mention 50 pound quantities for storage but that was in a Dept. of Industrial Relations regulation. 
 

This state is so mucked up. 
 

 

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14 hours ago, Charlie Harley, #14153 said:

Probably 95% of their calibers, like the 40-70 Sharps Straight, have no spec.

I was wondering about that.

 

Is there even a smokeless spec for most of the more obscure buffalo gun cartridges?  Many of them fell into obsolescence before smokeless powder even became a fad.

 

If a standard doesn't exist, you really can't test a gun to it, can you?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Smuteye John SASS#24774 said:

I was wondering about that.

 

Is there even a smokeless spec for most of the more obscure buffalo gun cartridges?  Many of them fell into obsolescence before smokeless powder even became a fad.

 

If a standard doesn't exist, you really can't test a gun to it, can you?

 

MLV and Steve Garbe mention using smokeless loads (AA5744) that duplicate BP velocities in a couple of their books.  AA5744 is the only powder I would use in most of the calibers.  The big boomers that use over 80 grs of black need blackpowder only to be efficient and safe.  Beyond me why anyone would use smokeless anyway.

Edited by Yellowhouse Sam # 25171
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37 minutes ago, Smuteye John SASS#24774 said:

 

Is there even a smokeless spec for most of the more obscure buffalo gun cartridges?  Many of them fell into obsolescence before smokeless powder even became a fad.

Not that I’ve been able to find. 
 

To me, if someone wants an 1874 Sharps but only to shoot smokeless, but a 45-70 or 38-55.  They’ll get performance that meets or exceeds nearly all traditional BP rounds. 
 

Buying a traditional BP round but wanting to load smokeless is not a wise move unless you’re willing to do a lot of careful experimentation on your own. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Yellowhouse Sam # 25171 said:

 

MLV and Steve Garbe mention using smokeless loads (IMR5744) that duplicate BP velocities in a couple of their books.  IMR5744 is the only powder I would use in most of the calibers.  The big boomers that use over 80 grs of black need blackpowder only to be efficient and safe.  Beyond me why anyone would use smokeless anyway.

Dont you mean A 5744?

 

Edited by Muleshoe Bill SASS #67022
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5 hours ago, Yellowhouse Sam # 25171 said:

 

MLV and Steve Garbe mention using smokeless loads (AA5744) that duplicate BP velocities in a couple of their books.  AA5744 is the only powder I would use in most of the calibers.  The big boomers that use over 80 grs of black need blackpowder only to be efficient and safe.  Beyond me why anyone would use smokeless anyway.

I like that powder. I was able to create a 38-55 load with that powder that darn near shot 1 hole groups at 100 yards with iron sights from a bench. I still have a pound of it but the 38-55 Marlin is gone. 

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20 hours ago, Charlie Harley, #14153 said:

The letter that came with my 38-55 said the same thing. I called Shiloh and they said if there was a SAAMI spec, like for the 38-55, they met the spec. 
 

Probably 95% of their calibers, like the 40-70 Sharps Straight, have no spec. That’s why it’s easier to print manuals with blanket instructions of Black Powder Only.  

 

I'm confused.  Is 45-70 different from 45-70 Sharps Straight?  I'm pretty sure 45-70 has saami specs. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

I'm confused.  Is 45-70 different from 45-70 Sharps Straight?  I'm pretty sure 45-70 has saami specs. 

 

I referenced the 45-70, which does have specs, and compared it to the 40-70 Sharps Straight. 
 

The latter is an older cartridge that is quite popular among the BP silhouette shooters. Very accurate. Milder recoil. But enough energy to reliably knock down the ram target. 

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5 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

I'm confused.  Is 45-70 different from 45-70 Sharps Straight?  I'm pretty sure 45-70 has saami specs. 

 

 

45 and 40 are not the same number.  You're reading too fast.

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11 hours ago, Cyrus Cassidy #45437 said:

 

45 and 40 are not the same number.  You're reading too fast.

I guess mentioning the fact there are 44-70's around might muddy the water a bit.  Anyway, I have one of those too.

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4 hours ago, Yellowhouse Sam # 25171 said:

I guess mentioning the fact there are 44-70's around might muddy the water a bit.  Anyway, I have one of those too.

 

Sam, is that a .44-70 or .44-77...?  :rolleyes:  ^_^

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Old NCIS episode. Woman was buried alive and dug herself out. While processing the crime scene Ducky found two arrowheads, a shark tooth, and a cartridge case from a 47/50 Army rifle. Or possibly it was a 40/75. I remember they had a couple of numbers transposed.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 said:

 

Sam, is that a .44-70 or .44-77...?  :rolleyes:  ^_^

44-70 is the 45-70 necked to .44 straight.  Emulates more or less the 44-70 Maynard. Its a bit milder form of the 44-77 which i also have in Shiloh and original roller.  

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On 6/3/2021 at 8:37 AM, Snakebite said:

1 lb Black, 20 lb Smokeless

I have 13 one-pound cans of Goex, and two one-pound cans of Pyrodex, just 8 feet from me, in my closet. 

 

It's difficult to comprehend the restrictions of some of the States. At some point, I'd have to leave a place like that.  I know...easier said, than done.

 

I have three Shiloh's, and one Cimarron import Sharps, but I've never fired any smokeless powder in them. I guess I am just too much of a history buff, and a traditionalist, to do that. However, I have to agree with the Pards that said, some of the bigger caliber cartridges should not be loaded with smokeless powder. I'd be worried that my 50-90 would be ruined, or someone, me included, might be injured. 

The original Sharps calibers were made in the black powder era. Perhaps it is best to stick with black powder.

If I want to shoot smokeless, I will use my Ruger Number 1, single shot. 

 

It is great advice, however, to contact Shiloh, to ask them that question. The answer should be the deal breaker. 

 

Of course my opinion, and one yankee dollar, may buy you a soft drink. 

 

W.K. 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I have not seen BP for sale in CA for many years. BP is a Class A Explosive. The subs are Class B, so 20lbs is OK. 

Edited by Snakebite
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Here is a discussion regarding smokeless loads for the .40-70 SS posted on the SHILOH discussion forum in 2008.
LINK

 

I picked up this Shiloh Sharps #1 Sporter from the original owner a few years ago.

The only loads he had shot through it since 2000 were XMP 5744 under a Hawk 350gr RT.

When I am able to access a 500+ yard range, I intend to work up some BP loads for it.

 

 

Sharps 1.jpg

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