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15-15-15


Snakebite
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For years and years it's been common for folks to slight the cost of a Shotgun. They would buy a new set of revolvers and have $1,500 invested in them by the time they were in the holsters. Then they would buy a Rifle (usually a 73) and have $1,500 invested by the time it was on their shoulder. Then they would go out and buy a cheap Shotgun. For some reason folks just didn't want to spend money on a Shotgun. I've always considered the Shotgun the "make or break" gun of the set. Having a quality Shotgun is just as important as the Revolvers and the Rifle. No doubt there are deals to be had on good used equipment, but I don't encourage anyone to buy cut rate New Equipment... whether it be Revolvers, Rifle, Shotgun or leather. You will never regret buying quality.

 

Snakebite

 

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And now another 15 (at minimum)  to get them tricked out

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Agree completely. I can't tell you how many experienced and accomplished shooters have told me that the shotgun is where you pick up time and make the most dramatic improvements. 

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Shotgun is a bugaboo for many. When I started I had a stock Stoeger. Upgraded to a Johnny Meadows Bakail. Much better. Started shooting an SKB this year. And they are better. I just load it quicker. Once you get a standard 10–10-4+ down to 25 seconds or so, those next 5 seconds are hard to come by. Shotgun is typically most shooters least favorite gun. Most don’t practice much with it, or very limited. (Go to range?for practice session. , shoot 100 rifle, 100 pistol then 10 or so shotgun)

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   I hope no new shooters read this post. 4500 to buy just the bare weapons, and another 1500 to make them work properly? According to you guys, to outfit myself, my wife and my 2 kids I shoulda spent at least 18,000.00. And that doesn't even include leather and clothes and gun cart, nor any ammo. No wonder we can't get as many new shooters as we would like. I"m surprised you don't think that everybody needs to spend at least 30,000.00 on a new truck or they won't be able to get the the shoots properly.

   As a whole I think we must try better to portray this SASS hobby of ours as first and foremost, a fun sport. With many categories to choose from, so that you can come and just shoot for fun, or shoot Blackpowder if that is your thing, or you can go all out and be the fastest gun in the West. You can dress in denims and a long sleeve work shirt, or like a movie western hero, or go all the way and dress like a real cowboy from the 1880's. With no pressure to spend hundreds on clothing unless you desire to go that way.

   All this talk about how you need to spend all this money or you will be too slow to compete is just keeping people away.  And don't even get me started on how much leather gear should be.

  

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49 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

   I hope no new shooters read this post. 4500 to buy just the bare weapons, and another 1500 to make them work properly? According to you guys, to outfit myself, my wife and my 2 kids I shoulda spent at least 18,000.00. And that doesn't even include leather and clothes and gun cart, nor any ammo. No wonder we can't get as many new shooters as we would like. I"m surprised you don't think that everybody needs to spend at least 30,000.00 on a new truck or they won't be able to get the the shoots properly.

   As a whole I think we must try better to portray this SASS hobby of ours as first and foremost, a fun sport. With many categories to choose from, so that you can come and just shoot for fun, or shoot Blackpowder if that is your thing, or you can go all out and be the fastest gun in the West. You can dress in denims and a long sleeve work shirt, or like a movie western hero, or go all the way and dress like a real cowboy from the 1880's. With no pressure to spend hundreds on clothing unless you desire to go that way.

   All this talk about how you need to spend all this money or you will be too slow to compete is just keeping people away.  And don't even get me started on how much leather gear should be.

  

Still cheaper than a motorcycle, a boat, a RV, about the same as golf. 

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The simple truth is this...

The old saw of this gun or that gun being a wash and matches being won or lost by a certain gun is outdated (if it were ever accurate).

 

In todays SASS - if your skills or equipment are lacking in any aspect ; there is no reasonable expectation of a podium finish.

 

That doesn't require you to spend a fortune to have fun - but if skill, dedication, practice and desire are equal; the equipment you choose will make a difference.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

 All this talk about how you need to spend all this money or you will be too slow to compete is just keeping people away.  And don't even get me started on how much leather gear should be.

  

Unless someone is a spectacular example of talent and ability - equipment will make the difference between winner and also ran.

 

While you may not need high end equipment to PLAY this game... 

You certainly do if you wish to COMPETE in this game.

 

And while it may be harmful to tell folks they need $4000.00 worth of equipment to play this game; it is just as harmful to imply that a shooter can compete in this game on a $1500.00 budget.

 

I am made very aware of this every time I go to an away shoot with my wife and daughter and am walking out of the hotel with $4000.00 worth of rifles, $2500.00 of shotguns and $3500.00 worth of pistols for the three of us.  

And thats not discussing a $1200.00 worth of gun leather.

And a number of D Bar J hats, Ariat boots and Scully clothing.  

 

This game is expensive.

The acronym CAS stands for...

Cowboy Action Shooting.

Not

Cheap @$$ Shooting.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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I don't think spending large amounts of money was the point that Snakebite was trying to make.

 

I think what he is trying to convey is that there are folks who spend large amounts of money on

their pistols and rifle but splurge on buying a QUALITY shotgun.

 

We've all seen and heard it before where 'New Cowboy' spent 4-digit money on pistols and rifle

but wants to only spend 2-digit money on a shotgun and expect equal results from all the 

equipment.

The oddity of this thought process for the gun buyer/cowboy shooter is that the SG is where

the most can be gained with a 'quality' firearm, but less money is spent.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

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My take is that Snakebite is referring to more experienced shooters who want to be seriously competitive. There have been plenty of threads on finding mid range quality firearms (that in the right hands can be very competitive) for a reasonable price. BUT and that is a very subjective BUT there comes a time in a shooters career when reliability and functionality trump price. Sometimes if that is a persons end game that time is early, sometimes later. My personal experience is with some less expensive firearms that I spent considerably more to to replace broken firearms than buying a high end gun to start with. Also the frustration of going into the last stage with a lead and having a gun break, jam, glitch or otherwise let you down is exasperating to say the least.

Example In my first 4 years I went through 5 Stoger SxS shotguns. 3 broken lugs, 4 cracked stocks, 5 cracked forearms, 4 sets of firing pins, and a broken weld between the barrels. Admittedly I was a relatively high volume shotgun shooter (at least 100 live fire per week) for 4 years and no idea how many dry fire cycles.

Yes they were retimed to make the hinge work correctly and cocking levers replaced with better ones, yes the chambers were only very lightly polished so as not to damage the recess where the shell rim sits, yes the gaps between wood and metal were hand sanded for correct relief. Yes the safety was turned into manual rather than auto reset and the spring replaced with a lighter one. Yes there are some who have had good luck with them for years just not me. IMHO the stoger is cheap gun that is entry level and will (probably should) be replaced as you go on in the sport. Best guess as to cost was about $3300 at 5x450 per gun, first one done by smith rest by me but 150 for that tune, could not get furniture from stoger :angry: so moved wood from one gun to another as I went through them, could not get lugs from stoger had local weld shop try repairs that would only last a short time, barrels were returned marked "unsafe" (no kidding !!!) on attempt to warranty repair:angry:. That was on a gun that was only 3 months old at the time and unmodified. Only stoger I had that worked decently was a single trigger model but I had doubling issues most likely due to my technique because the person I sold it to had good luck with it (think they still have it don't know)

Any way replaced with a Johnny Meadows SKB that I got for about $1200 and 8 years later still no issues or breakdowns.

Sometimes money up front is the best choice. YMMV

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

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I think what Snakebite is saying is, your ability can only go so far. If you want to be the most competitive in your category, you need top equipment.

Top equipment, with top ability (you can train for that) equal higher placement in you category.

 

While placing in the top is not a thing for a lot of shooters, it is for many.

 

Let's take skydiving:

You can buy a parachute that is top of the line, with top shelf shrouds and pack, and know your ability can get you on the ground safely, every time.

or

You can buy a cheap chute, used, some so-so shrouds, and a knapsack from walmart, and hope you can make a second jump.

 

Me, I'd rather get the best equipment I can, then, if I'm not at the top of my category, it's me, not the equipment. I can fix me.

 

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I, like most folks in the early days, started with good pistols, a good rifle and any shotgun I had.

 

I went through five, read 5, shotguns the first two years, two the next year then a kind soul lent me his Browning BSS to finish a match.

It took me five minutes the next night to bid one one!   From there it was a three year learning curve to tune and fit it and make it smooth light and most of it DEPENDABLE.

 

I have never looked back and am still shooting that BSS after 19 years!!!!

 

Oh, by the way,  my placements went up the podium immediately.

 

Ol' #4

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55 minutes ago, Ol Number4 said:

I, like most folks in the early days, started with good pistols, a good rifle and any shotgun I had.

 

I went through five, read 5, shotguns the first two years, two the next year then a kind soul lent me his Browning BSS to finish a match.

It took me five minutes the next night to bid one one!   From there it was a three year learning curve to tune and fit it and make it smooth light and most of it DEPENDABLE.

 

I have never looked back and am still shooting that BSS after 19 years!!!!

 

Oh, by the way,  my placements went up the podium immediately.

 

Ol' #4

Still one of the best to have work on a BSS.

Trustworthy to the max!!!

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

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7 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Fifteen hundred for a pair of revolvers?   Last time I checked, a new Colt was more than than.   

But, good deals can be found on the used market if you look hard enough.

And a Grover is a lot more...but so what.

 

You can get reasonably good functioning revolvers for in the $1500 range.

 

Problem with the shotgun isn't the $$, it's the availability.

 

Phantom

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The point I was trying to make in my original post was that many folks don't think that buying a quality Shotgun is a priority in this game. IMO it is just as important as the other guns. I went through 4 Stoegers and one Bakail before getting my BSS, and it has lasted just fine.  

 

Slim's comments made me look around. I invite everyone else to take a honest look and push the pencil around to see what the end cost of Getting the New Guns needed into your hands will be. You will need leather too you know. Don't forget tax and FFL fees, etc. I think you will find that you can no longer do it for cheap... also, make sure that they actually have the guns you look at, are in stock and ready to ship. I found that many were still out of stock. 

 

Next, if you can't find what you need at the regular places and at final prices substantially less than my post suggest then try looking for used gear that is suitable. How many bargains did you find?

 

Finally, if the new or used guns you found are bone stock, do they need any tuning? Can Newbie Johnson do the work himself?

 

Bottom line is that telling some poor guy that he can do this for much less than he actually can is not helping him or us. Let him know the truth, then encourage him to get one gun at a time as he can and to guns that he won't regret buying a couple months after he starts playing the game. There is a reason that you see so many of the same guns and equipment on the range.... it's because Quality counts.

 

Snakebite

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Posted (edited)

A lot of people "thinking" about what Snakebite is saying.  He is on here he can explain his own self.  As long as I am on here I THINK Snakebite is saying it is amazing people will gladly spend $1,500.00 for a pair of pistols, $1,500.00 for a rifle and then gripe because they have to spend $400.00 for a Stoeger.  Most people can become passable shooters with the handguns and passable shooters with the rifle.  The Achilles heel for most is the shotgun.  More matches are lost with the shotgun than won with the handguns or rifle.  You think things are expensive they are going to get more expensive fast.  Most of the ammo manufacturers have announced 15 to 20% price increases.  The local Sportsman's just got in several hundred handguns.  The mainstay of CAS revolvers, the Ruger New Vaquero, is now bumping $800.00 before any tuning.  As soon as the Italians come out of hybernation you can pretty well bet the price of lever guns is going UP.  So a pair of tuned handguns is going to be $2,000.00 as will a tuned rifle.  Any sport these days is EXPENSIVE.  If you can't pay to play at least don't gripe quite so loud.

 

P.S.  I just noticed Snakebit posted while I was typing.  Now we don't have to guess.

Edited by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933
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Well, I guess I am just going to have to live with stages in the 30 second range. But I can live with that, as I shoot FC duelist, sometimes Classic Cowboy. I use 44-40 case full of real BP because that is more fun for me. I say I like to win but honestly, if I really cared I would practice more, but I don't, so I guess I don't care after all. I do care about shooting with my wife, both my kids, and having fun with my friends. Even if I wanted to I could not spend the kind of money you guys are talking about. I work from home, but mostly I am a stay at home Dad, and no way could I justify that kind of "recreational spending", and I'm pretty sure many others are in the same boat. It just seems to me there is way too much emphasis on the "Podium" and not the fun. But that is just me.

   As for not everything getting more expensive, that has been the case for years, nothing new. Doesn't mean you can't be a bit patient and get some good used deals. If you have the money to buy 3-500 dollar hats and 2,000 revolvers, I'm happy for you, but that isn't the norm, and shouldn't be. IMHO

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9 hours ago, Hoss said:

Shotgun is a bugaboo for many. When I started I had a stock Stoeger. Upgraded to a Johnny Meadows Bakail. Much better. Started shooting an SKB this year. And they are better. I just load it quicker. Once you get a standard 10–10-4+ down to 25 seconds or so, those next 5 seconds are hard to come by. Shotgun is typically most shooters least favorite gun. Most don’t practice much with it, or very limited. (Go to range?for practice session. , shoot 100 rifle, 100 pistol then 10 or so shotgun)

 

This.  

 

If you only practice one gun it should be the shotgun.  It's the only gun we load on the clock.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

Well, I guess I am just going to have to live with stages in the 30 second range. But I can live with that, as I shoot FC duelist, sometimes Classic Cowboy. I use 44-40 case full of real BP because that is more fun for me. I say I like to win but honestly, if I really cared I would practice more, but I don't, so I guess I don't care after all. I do care about shooting with my wife, both my kids, and having fun with my friends. Even if I wanted to I could not spend the kind of money you guys are talking about. I work from home, but mostly I am a stay at home Dad, and no way could I justify that kind of "recreational spending", and I'm pretty sure many others are in the same boat. It just seems to me there is way too much emphasis on the "Podium" and not the fun. But that is just me.

   As for not everything getting more expensive, that has been the case for years, nothing new. Doesn't mean you can't be a bit patient and get some good used deals. If you have the money to buy 3-500 dollar hats and 2,000 revolvers, I'm happy for you, but that isn't the norm, and shouldn't be. IMHO

For some of us trying to get to the podium is a big part of the fun. Is that ok? Do we have to enjoy the sport the way you do?

 

I spent money for the best equipment I could afford. I don’t feel guilty, should I?

 

It just seems to me there is way too much emphasis on BP and how much you can cram in a case and not the fun. But that is just me.

 

We have enough criticism coming from the anti gun mob without forming a circular firing squad and criticizing our pard’s values and spending decisions.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
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I don't cram any in a case, just enough to touch the bottom of the bullet. I also use fg, a coarser grade, just to have more sparks and flame, but the amount of powder is actually less.

   I don't believe I criticized anyone for their way of having fun, and if you feel that way I apologize.  I just don't think it is best for getting new blood into our sport to say that spending 2000 on a pair of revolvers is required or the norm. 

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If you’re on the range shooting SASS, I don’t care why you’re there, and I don’t care what part of the sport you’re enjoying.
 

I don’t care if you’re dressed to the nines, or dressed minimally. I don’t care if you’re shooting low teens, or if I need to break out a sundial.

 

I don’t care if you’re shooting BP or smokeless. Doesn’t matter to me if you’re shooting a Stoeger, Colts, or a Rossi. 
 

I don’t care if you’re wearing Triple K or a Colt Faro rig.

 

You’re a Cowboy regardless and we need more like you.

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1 hour ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

Well, I guess I am just going to have to live with stages in the 30 second range. But I can live with that, as I shoot FC duelist, sometimes Classic Cowboy. I use 44-40 case full of real BP because that is more fun for me. I say I like to win but honestly, if I really cared I would practice more, but I don't, so I guess I don't care after all. I do care about shooting with my wife, both my kids, and having fun with my friends. Even if I wanted to I could not spend the kind of money you guys are talking about. I work from home, but mostly I am a stay at home Dad, and no way could I justify that kind of "recreational spending", and I'm pretty sure many others are in the same boat. It just seems to me there is way too much emphasis on the "Podium" and not the fun. But that is just me.

   As for not everything getting more expensive, that has been the case for years, nothing new. Doesn't mean you can't be a bit patient and get some good used deals. If you have the money to buy 3-500 dollar hats and 2,000 revolvers, I'm happy for you, but that isn't the norm, and shouldn't be. IMHO

I'm sorry...but this passive attack on those that strive for the "Podium" is rather un-cowboy.

 

As Badlands Bud once said: If I can't compete, I won't have fun. If I don't have fun, I won't compete. 

 

Phantom

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I have traveled all over the country and attended a lot of shoots.  Despite some BS on the wire from those claiming they don't care how crappy they shoot, I have never met anyone at a match that says they came to the match with the express intent of shooting poorly.

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1 hour ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

I have traveled all over the country and attended a lot of shoots.  Despite some BS on the wire from those claiming they don't care how crappy they shoot, I have never met anyone at a match that says they came to the match with the express intent of shooting poorly.

My father for one.  He quit shooting sass because people kept pushing him to try to shoot faster.  He was out to enjoy shooting the guns.  Would walk between  guns laugh and have fun.   He could shoot a hell of a lot faster but didn't care to. 

  Not everybody is here to shoot fast.  Not everybody gives a hoot about the time.    I shoot a single shot shotgun from time to time because it's fun.   Even won matches with it over state champion quality shooters.   Took 4th place at regionals with a bone stock steoger, a very well used non short stroked uberti 73 and a pair of vaqueros that only had the springs changed.   The three that beat me?  Duece, carty and Jonny otter.   They practice and take this hobby very seriously.  I do it because I love the guns and it beats working on the farm.  

 

 I will agree that shotgun is where you win or lose.  Plain fact is you do not need a 1500 shotgun to win, and having one won't put you on the podium.  Look at how many people are shooting a skb with action job that has to be pretty close to $2000 and still don't even hit the top 1/3 of the shooters.  Money only gets you so far.  Practice and talent will get you the win.  You can't buy a podium the shooter earns it. 

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I have 4 Colts, a 73 Uberti, a 66 Uberti and 2 STOEGERS! I've never had a problem in 20+ years with a Stoeger! :)

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