Roger Rapid Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 You're good if your cases are .003˝-.004˝ variance. The key is in cartridge OAL, not the case OAL (unless the case is way out of spec). Unclear on your rifle caliber - are you saying it's .38-40? If so, you'll find them a little more delicate to crimp without rippling the necked end of the case. So, find the sweet spot between positive crimp and not deforming the case's neck. Hopefully you'll be loading bullets with a cannelure, so you'll be crimping into the cannelure. RR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holloman Posted June 3, 2021 Author Share Posted June 3, 2021 11 minutes ago, Roger Rapid said: You're good if your cases are .003˝-.004˝ variance. The key is in cartridge OAL, not the case OAL (unless the case is way out of spec). Unclear on your rifle caliber - are you saying it's .38-40? If so, you'll find them a little more delicate to crimp without rippling the necked end of the case. So, find the sweet spot between positive crimp and not deforming the case's neck. Hopefully you'll be loading bullets with a cannelure, so you'll be crimping into the cannelure. RR I use .45 Colt for Wild Bunch (an 1892 right now.) , which is where I would like to use the Lightning. My main match rifle is a .38-40 1873. I couldnt find a Lightning carbine in .38-40. I don't use any .45 Colt revolvers. Here's the bullet I'm using. 200gr by Apache Bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 As far as the Lee Factory Crimp Die goes, I use it for .44-40, .32-20 and other bottleneck cartridges. I have never needed one with any straight wall cases. Technically you don't need it for the bottlenecks, but I have personally found that it works better for me if I do. You're mileage may vary, but if I were to tool up for .38-40 I'd want one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Knight Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 Doc, the bullet I posted earlier was also the Apache 200 grain bullet, forgot to mention that in the earlier description. So, based on the feedback here, it should work fine on the shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holloman Posted June 5, 2021 Author Share Posted June 5, 2021 Latest update: Took the Lightning to the local indoor range (Apache Rifle Works, Comfort, TX -- to give them a plug), with 50 rounds of my handloads (200gr Apache coated RNFP, 5.6gr Clays, Winchester Large Pistol Primers.) Rifle/ammo are not ready for prime time yet. First 10 rounds ran fine (except for one light primer strike, but I think that was the primer -- I had a number of those, both with the .45 Colt in the Lightning and with a batch of .45acp in my 1911 using the same primers. ). But after that the rifle started having feeding problems, about every 3rd or 4th round failing to feed cleanly. Out of 50, I think I ended up shucking about 6 or 7 onto the range floor. I brought 3 of the offending rounds home to examine (one of the others would not extract -- had to pry it out with my pocket knife -- I threw that one away. The others were downrange and not retrievable (the Lightning ejects forward.) All 3 passed the "plunk test" in my cartridge gage with no problem. All 3 were under 1.560 lengthwise. Two of the three showed scuffing in the bullet coating where the round would meet the chamber lip. Brass not the issue. All 3 rounds I brought home are different makers. Also noticed that no matter how hard I racked the slide, about every 3rd or forth time it did chamber it failed to lock up. Think I am going to have to relegate the Winchester primers (about 300 either on the shelf or loaded into brass already) and Apache bullets (900 on the shelf) to use in my Rossi 92 (hope it will eat them.) Unfortunately the only other primers I have are CCI, which I understand are also "hard." The Apache bullets also feed OK in my 1911, so maybe I can use them there. Looking for bullet and primer recommendations. Any other ideas? Doc sends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Rapid Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 Doc... Sorry you're having problems with your Lightning. Bunch of things come to mind: 1) Can you better describe the feeding and "failure to lock up" problem? By "failure to lock up" do you mean that action won't close? 2) Does a cartridge feed on to the lifter? 3) When you cycled the rifle so bolt is fully back, is the cartridge secured between the lifter and the cartridge guides (the two little side plates)? (The cartridge should be held securely when the bolt is back.) 4) Your comment that "...all three under 1.560˝..." could be the root off your problem; the OAL should be closer to 1.60˝ - you are now .040˝ shorter than ideal. 5) As to bad primer hits, are you getting any dent in the primers? If so, can you post a photo of a hit primer that did not detonate? 6) Do you have a way to measure the hammer pull (in ounces)? 7) Your very last post said ".45 Colt..." but I thought your Lightning was .38-40??? 8) Scuffing on the bullet in a Lightning can be caused by the cartridge stop lever scraping along the bullet as the cartridge stop lever comes up (normal). if it is caused by the bullet entering the chamber, then it could be because your rounds are under the correct OAL. Need better explanation of what the feeding problem is, and we'll go from there... RER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Rapid Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 OOOPS --- Just looked at post again and saw photo of your bullet - I missed it when I looked at your post the last time. (Unless your "edit" was posting the photo as I was drafting my response.) That kind of abrasion is not happening from the cartridge stop lever. Looks like the bullet and case are getting dragged against the entry edge of the chamber. (And I see you are shooting .45LC.) Has that cartridge only been in the rifle once or did you try to use it repeated times? RR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holloman Posted June 5, 2021 Author Share Posted June 5, 2021 25 minutes ago, Roger Rapid said: Doc... Sorry you're having problems with your Lightning. Bunch of things come to mind: 1) Can you better describe the feeding and "failure to lock up" problem? By "failure to lock up" do you mean that action won't close? I meant the bullet hangs up at about a 35-45 degree angle going into the chamber. Usually I could pull the slide back and forward again and it would chamber, but about half the time when I did tat it would not lock up properly (the trigger would not reset) and I would have to eject the round (aggravating that the Lightning trigger won't reset when you manually cock the hammer.) 25 minutes ago, Roger Rapid said: 2) Does a cartridge feed on to the lifter? Every time. Not an issue. 3) When you cycled the rifle so bolt is fully back, is the cartridge secured between the lifter and the cartridge guides (the two little side plates)? (The cartridge should be held securely when the bolt is back.) Not an issue. 4) Your comment that "...all three under 1.560˝..." could be the root off your problem; the OAL should be closer to 1.60˝ - you are now .040˝ shorter than ideal. Not sure I have any brass long enough if I crimp the bullets to the cannelure. None of this brass was trimmed. Will see if I can find some long enough. 5) As to bad primer hits, are you getting any dent in the primers? If so, can you post a photo of a hit primer that did not detonate? Unfortunately I loaded each of those again and they fired on the second try. Have attached shot of three brass showing the standard primer strike. 6) Do you have a way to measure the hammer pull (in ounces)? Not currently 7) Your very last post said ".45 Colt..." but I thought your Lightning was .38-40??? Sorry I confused matters with that. My Cowboy main match guns are all .38-40. I only use .45 Colt for Wild Bunch Rifle (which is what I bought this Lightning for). The Lightning is .45 Colt. 8) Scuffing on the bullet in a Lightning can be caused by the cartridge stop lever scraping along the bullet as the cartridge stop lever comes up (normal). if it is caused by the bullet entering the chamber, then it could be because your rounds are under the correct OAL. Need better explanation of what the feeding problem is, and we'll go from there... RER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holloman Posted June 5, 2021 Author Share Posted June 5, 2021 15 minutes ago, Roger Rapid said: That kind of abrasion is not happening from the cartridge stop lever. Looks like the bullet and case are getting dragged against the entry edge of the chamber. (And I see you are shooting .45LC.) Has that cartridge only been in the rifle once or did you try to use it repeated times? RR No, it ejected when I tried to "double pump" it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holloman Posted June 5, 2021 Author Share Posted June 5, 2021 OK, I may have a suspect for the light primer strikes -- my Lyman priming tool. I have noticed that it will not seat primers as deeply as I would like (all of them slightly proud of the case). Tool is not adjustable for depth. I think it is going in the trash and I will need to find a replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 41 minutes ago, Doc Holloman said: OK, I may have a suspect for the light primer strikes -- my Lyman priming tool. I have noticed that it will not seat primers as deeply as I would like (all of them slightly proud of the case). Tool is not adjustable for depth. I think it is going in the trash and I will need to find a replacement. This is what makes diagnosing problems without seeing the gun and the ammo so difficult. What you are describing should have been obvious through a visual or tactile inspection. It could also explain at least one of your other problems. If the primers are sticking out of the case that could easily keep the bolt from fully closing. You are lucky you can't pull the trigger on a Pedersoli unless the bolt is fully closed. Firing out of battery would have been real fun. Get your ammo loaded correctly and if you are still having problems borrow a few bullets of different styles and weights from your fellow shooters and try some different profiles. The round in your photo looks fine. But sometimes it does not take much for a lightning to not like a particular bullet shape. Don't worry about the OAL at this point. It is a .45 so the rounds can only be loaded so short. Just load the rounds and try them. It is not like trying to run a .38 through a .357. Here is an example. Here are two rounds of .357. The one on the left should feed and cycle with no problem. However, for whatever reason it does not work for poop. The round on the right feeds like greased monkey snot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Rapid Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 OOOPS --- Just looked at post again and saw photo fo your bullet - I missed it when I looked at your post the last time. That kind of abrasion is not happening from the cartridge stop lever. Looks like the bullet and case are getting dragged against the entry edge of the chamber. (And I see you are shooting .45LC.) Has that cartridge only been in the rifle once or did you try to use it repeated times? RR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Rapid Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 And Ditto on Larsen's post. Also "35°-40°" is entirely too severe an angle to try to feed rounds into the chamber- The lifter on a Lightning rifle brings the round up at a 7° to 8° degree angle. It looks like I sent you a copy of my Pedersoli Manual. Check Addendum T and Fig. 77. Your lifter might be going down too easily and too early resulting in your cartridge trying to feed at too severe an angle. Is your rifle marked "Navy Arms?" RR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holloman Posted June 5, 2021 Author Share Posted June 5, 2021 It is marked Cimarron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 To check what Roger is talking about with the lifter pump the pump all the way to the rear and then move it forward about a 1/2 so that it releases the lifter. Push on it with your finger. It should have a little bit of resistance. If it drops easily the tension needs to be adjusted. Basically a loaded .45 should not cause the lifter to fall all by itself. The lifter should stay up so the round can be pushed into the chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holloman Posted June 5, 2021 Author Share Posted June 5, 2021 OK, I exaggerated the feed angle ( I was doing it from memory. Here is a photo of where it hangs up with the dummy rounds I made yesterday with the same press/die settings. The brass is about 3/16 inch into the chamber when it hangs up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holloman Posted June 5, 2021 Author Share Posted June 5, 2021 13 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said: To check what Roger is talking about with the lifter pump the pump all the way to the rear and then move it forward about a 1/2 so that it releases the lifter. Push on it with your finger. It should have a little bit of resistance. If it drops easily the tension needs to be adjusted. Basically a loaded .45 should not cause the lifter to fall all by itself. The lifter should stay up so the round can be pushed into the chamber. OK, the lifter pushes down without much resistance and stays down. Not good, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Rapid Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 Your photo is a bit fuzzy and hard for me to see exact angle and position of cartridge on lifter. Here's photo of .45LC round sitting on lifter with bolt all the way back. As Larsen said, without cartridge on lifter, move bolt forward 1/2˝ and place a 10oz weight on the forward end of the lifter (see Fig. 77 in my manual). If lifter drops then its is entirely too loosely fitted. If lifter can drop, then the primer end of your cartridge will drop making the angle too severe and feeding virtually impossible. The lifter must stay up to guide the cartridge into the chamber at a shallow angle. RR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holloman Posted June 5, 2021 Author Share Posted June 5, 2021 When I open the action, the cartridge is not sitting back against the bolt The nose of the bullet is up against the feed ramp, with the base about 3/8 inch in front of the bolt. But if I hold the muzzle up and jiggle the bolt a little, the cartridge slides back against the bolt and feeds properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holloman Posted June 7, 2021 Author Share Posted June 7, 2021 Took me a while to come up with a weight (tube filled with birdshot). Unfortunately it only takes about 7 ounces to depress the lifter. Not good. Now to find a new lifter, since it appears that neither Pedersoli nor Cimarron have parts support for this gun anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Rapid Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 Hi Doc... VTI Gunparts carries parts for Pedersoli guns. RR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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