Doc Holloman Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 I just picked up a NOS Pedersoli Lightning in .45 Colt. YES, I have heard all the horror stories regarding Lightning clones, but, hey, I like a challenge and if I can get it to run right, it could be a game changer for me. I took it to the range this morning, out of the box, for a function check. First issue, difficult to load. The flat nose Hormady Cowboy rounds hung up in the loading gate and had to be jiggled around to get them to feed into the magazine. OK , maybe that is the ammo, and that should be a loading table issue, not a time killer. Moving on, second issue: racked the slide for the first round. Pull the trigger. Nothing. Hammer doesn't drop. Turns out the bolt was not all the way forward in battery. After pumping the slide again, the bolt seated and it fired. After several cycles I found that I had to slam the slide forward with an unreasonable amount of force to get the bolt to seat reliably, a LOT more than needed for a 97 or 12 shotgun. The ammo again? Lubrication? Issue 3: every third round or so, the round would hang up c chambering, similar to a misfeed in a 1911that hasn't been throated. Ammo again? I imagine that the rifle could use breaking in, followed by sticking by someone who knows Lightnings. Any recommendations? In the meantime, I could use assembly/ disassembly instructions. Apparently there was a set floating around on the Wire a few years ago. Are they still around? All tips, comments, advice are welcome. Doc sends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 Also found an old post that pointed to Roger Rapid as being the one to contact for the teardown instructions and extensive knowledge of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 As noted send a note to Roger Rapid. He likes to send the manuals so he can keep track of who has them and can send any updates in the future. Lots of questions about ammo. Real simple first test. Pump the bolt to the rear and then push the carrier down a bit. Point the muzzle at the floor and drop in a round. If it does not drop all the way to the rim with a "tink" that ammo is no good for that rifle. Lightnings have no camming action on the bolt. If the ammo does not freely enter the chamber you will have problems. If the ammo passes the initial drop test then you can start checking bullet shape, OAL, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 I just looked at the Hornady website. This is the picture they show of their .45 Cowboy load. If your bullet looks like this it is not a suitable bullet for the lightning. The bullet has a shoulder on the front and that can hang up in the mechanism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 This is more what you need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 Doc, let’s start out with the bullets: * Accurate Molds or on eBay, the Ideal 454190, 255gr a RNFP metplat will slide into the chamber because of it’s weight and ogive shape * The COAL of the 45 round at 1.55 to 1.57 ... not 1.60 * Your crimp cannot be light ... run you finger down the bullet over the crimp. If it is not smooth with a ridge, the case rim will hang up chambering ... it’s gotta be smooth *. Absolute need, the forearm has to be racked hard both ways with complete cycles ... baby it and you’ll always have issues If these 4 items work in my Taurus, should be no issues with your Pedersoli ... Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 Tips... uhhhhh...make sure the hangers are mounted into studs. Drywall mounting is not dependable even with drywall anchors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Knight Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 Also new to the AWA version of the lightning. First match had a few hang ups on feeding. Since then I've followed the advice for a full clean racking of the action and that has eliminated most all of the problems. It doesn't have to be excessively firm, more a matter of not unintentionally short stroking it trying to be too quick. Also, loading for it using the Lee dies, if you use the four die set, the final factory crimp die leaves no shoulder and a very smooth feeding bullet. Roger sent me the Taurus version of the manual pretty quickly, so I would be surprised if he doesn't get you sorted pretty quickly. Johnny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pee Wee #15785 Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 Treat it like it just stole your last 10 girlfriends and 32 wives and drank your last Billy Clinton beer. Then get madder. I have been using a Lighting for 20 years and to make them run if you have a good one you have to work the pimp very hard and not as fast as a 73 lever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 My own Lightnings are AWA's and Colts. That being said, this is the first time I've ever read anything bad about the Pedersoli here on the Wire. My favorite is an AWA in .45 Colt, so I at least have the caliber in common. I can only offer the following general advice; keep it clean. I once went too long between cleanings, and the firing pin got gummed up and the gun would sometimes not go bang. I flush out the pin, and the whole action, with Gunscrubber after every match, wipe down with Hoppes number 9 and oil in appropriate places. Since doing that, my rifle has run just fine. Even shot another clean match with 2 weeks ago. I have found that you don't need to be "abusive" to the gun, but you do need to wrack the action firmly. You can't baby it. The ammo I use looks much like the photo that Larsen posted, but I do put more of a crimp in mine. I think you've gotten some good advice from previous posters. The only other thing I can suggest is check to see if there is any kind of a plug in the magazine to limit capacity, and if there is, remove it. One of my AWA's had one, and it made loading very still. Once it was gone, it got much easier to load. Good luck to you, and welcome to the Lighting Club. But Beware the Lightning Bug. You will soon have multiple rifles in multiple calibers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Rapid Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 Doc Holloman - welcome to the Lightning club!!! PM me your email address and I'lll send you V16 of my manual (it's 32 pages so I need to send it to your email). Lightnings are super fun to shoot and can run as fast as a lever gun. And I concur with Larsen and H.K. - certainly sounds like an ammo problem. Practice (with these rifles does) makes perfect! RR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holloman Posted May 29, 2021 Author Share Posted May 29, 2021 I just finished a batch of .30-06 for BAMM and will be setting up my press today for .45 Colt. Any issue using coated bullets in the lightning? My lightning is Carbine length and will hold 10 rounds (getting that 10th one in is tough) , so I am assuming no plug in the mag rube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Rapid Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 Hi Doc... No problem with coated bullets. Using a push stick for the last round will help your fingers from getting sore. No plug if you can get 10 in the mag. RR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Knight Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 Getting started with the AWA version, I loaded up 200 grain HyTek coated bullets w/ 5.1 grains of Titegroup, COL 1.57. They shot fine, only issues were operator error on short cycling them. What I found that helped the most was ordering up a set of "A-Zoom 45 Colt Precision Snap Caps (6 Pack)". After a bit of practice loading, the process got smoother when I learned to keep a second finger on the front of the round as it fed in. Kept it from occasionally skating with the flat point. Once I had all 6 rounds in, then I just practiced different sweeps. It didn't take long before seeing a noticeable improvement as I settled into the full racking others have mentioned. Obviously just another way of saying practice with your weapon, but I found the snap caps made it easy to get in a few minutes of practice day after day until the correct motions became more automatic. I'm sure when I get out to another match, a bit of enthusiasm will kick in and I may see some differences, but I'm happy with the progress so far. The only thing I've noticed is that the snap caps have gotten chewed up a bit on the case rim, but they still work fine. Overall enjoying the lightning quite a bit and looking forward to matches with it. Regards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 Yeek... Those snap caps are pretty chewed up. How did that happen? Another thing they are good for is to practice rapid slam firing. When I was getting ready to take my nephew to a shoot, I demonstrated it for him. He's active duty USMC and was impressed that I was able to eject the the tenth round when only 3 had reached the floor. Yeah, I know, some folks can have all ten in the air, but I'm not that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Knight Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 No idea on why they are chewed up. Since I'm just getting experience with the lightning, I didn't know if that was just something they did. On the snap cap, it may be just an aluminum round, so perhaps it's softer than regular brass? I figure as long as they feed smoothly, I'll keep practicing with them. If they get to where they don't feed I can always toss them in the polisher to clean them back up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go West Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 While loading, if you push the round too far down (towards back side of rifle), they will hang. Try to push the round into the follower and allow it to rest on the back end of the loading port. Use the next round to push in the first and repeat for subsequent rounds. I use a toothbrush to push the last bit into the magazine to save fingernails. It's easy with some practice. Bullet shape should be like Larsen's 2nd picture, but with more crimp. I have a recently acquired .45 Pedersoli and am experimenting with ammo myself. Best results with a rounded ogive of 185 gr. or more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 Lightning ammo pusher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Rapid Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 Johnny Knight... The damage to the case mouth on your poppers is caused by the case mouth engaging with the edge(s) of the chamber at an angle. You'd be much better off making some dummy loads using the actual bullets you will be using when shooting. Rifles with a lifter (i.e., Lightnings, '92s, '94's, etc.) that present the bullet to the chamber at a 15°-17° angle will run much smoother with well-tapered bullets - the more the taper, the better (as long as they are not RN - round nose). A nice crimp helps. Also, you don't want to collect aluminum chips in your action from your poppers. Note the difference in the shape between this .45LC bullet and shape of the bullet on your poppers. (The bullet pictured below comes from Bear Creek Supply.) RR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Knight Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 Roger, thanks for the feedback! I just loaded up about 350 rounds of 200 grain HyTek coated bullets w/ 5.1 grains of Titegroup, COL 1.57., but I can always run them through the Vaqueros. I was planning on loading up some more rounds anyways. Looks like the round you posted above is 185 grain Bear Creek round? On the dummy loads, I've seen some folks keep a shot primer in, where others have used various forms of silicone or RTV to cushion the firing pin. How sensitive is the firing pin on the lightnings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Rapid Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 Johnny Knight... Your round looks perfect. The Pedersoli Lightning is the only version of a Lightning that uses a return spring on the firing pin - which helps. Regardless, good idea to fill the primer with silicone rubber. And, if you just want to see how the rifle feeds when cycling fast, you can just hold the release lever back and rack the action open and closed quickly without dropping the hammer. RR EDIT/PS: Yes, round in my last post is the Bear Creek Supply 185g RNFP .45 cal bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Knight Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 Just had a thought that I could go ahead and put the snap caps through the factory crimp die, that should smooth out the slight shoulder it has and cause it to also be an exact match. Any reason come to mind why that wouldn't work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 They are aluminum and solid material. The brass and lead of an actual shell are easier to compress. When you are crimping a round you are either pushing the brass into a crimp groove or pushing it into soft lead. What are you going to push into where on a solid metal round? Try one and see if you damage the snap cap or the die. If they cycle OK I would not worry about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Knight Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 Running one through the Lee Factory Crimp die, there was negligible contact with the die. So, apparently the snap cap is slightly undersized than a standard 45 Colt cartridge. Fwiw, the scratches that appear on the snap cap shoulders posted above are mostly in the paint, they otherwise seem to feed fine. There is more roughness on the rim from being extracted than on the front. They seem to cycle fine, so doing what I wanted them to do. Just trying to get some practice time with the gun without having to head to the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 The marks on the rims come from feeding, not extracting. Here is a photo of a guide-rail/extractor. This one is from an AWA but they are all similar. The blue arrow is pointing to the surface that guides the round into the chamber. This surface is usually fairly sharp as can be seen from the photo and it is not unusal for this sharp surface to put grooves in the rims. When the shell is extracted it comes back into a recess above the guide-rail area. The first red arrow is pointing to this recess. The second red arrow is pointing to the "ejector." When the rim hits this vertical surface it is kicked up and out of the receiver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watab kid Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 i have a couple friends that shoot these - i was going to get one once a bit back - but they are tempermental in OAL and with all the issues they had i did not get one , i like the idea and the ones that work have imppressed me with their performance , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Rapid Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 Watab Kid... The design of the cartridge release lever in Lightnings makes them rather efficient and not really prone to being temperamental in OAL as long as the cartridge being loaded is close to the designed OAL for that gun - i.e., 1.60˝ for .45LC, etc. The problem we hear about typically arrises from shooting .38s in rifles marked as ".357." The Pedersoli Lightning, for example, is stamped ".357" and is designed for an OAL of 1.60˝ but folks think that since you can chamber and shoot a .38 in a .357, they should run in that rifle. Yes, .38s will fit in the chamber and will shoot in a .357 but they won't feed well because the cartridge is shorter than the designed OAL for that gun. (Pedersoli does not make a Lightning that is intended for .38 caliber rounds.) RR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watab kid Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 maybe that was their issue , i never asked them about that , good to know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Rapid Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 And while on the topic of OAL (overall length) it is interesting to note that the original Colt Lightning (medium frame) rifles were made in three calibers: .44.40, .38.40, and 32.20. Each of these cartridges were perfect selections for Colt's medium frame action because all of them had virtually identical OALs: .44-40 is 1.592˝, .38-40 is 1.593˝ and .32-20 is 1.592˝ (for reference on contemporary cartridges, the .45LC is 1.60˝ and and .357 is 1.59˝). RR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holloman Posted June 3, 2021 Author Share Posted June 3, 2021 My RCBS .45 Colt dies don't include a separate Crimp die. Can I get an good crimp with the RCBS seating die? The Lee Factory Crimp die appears to be unavailable from anyone right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 27 minutes ago, Doc Holloman said: My RCBS .45 Colt dies don't include a separate Crimp die. Can I get an good crimp with the RCBS seating die? The Lee Factory Crimp die appears to be unavailable from anyone right now. If it does not include a separate crimp die then 99.999% of the time the seater is also a crimper. You just need to look up how to adjust it. Basically screw in the die with the seater stem up a bit. Slowly screw the seater stem down until you get the OAL you want. Then unscrew the seater stem and slowly screw the die body down until you get the crimp you want. Tighten the die lock nut and while the ram is up screw the seater stem down until it contacts the bullet nose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holloman Posted June 3, 2021 Author Share Posted June 3, 2021 Thanks. I have used the seater die in my .45ACP set to crimp, but I was concerned since I was getting the feeling that a good roll crimp is so much more critical for proper feeding in a lighting (or a lever gun for that matter), and was reading a lot of advice to get a separate Lee Factory Crimp Die (which as I said, is not available right now.) Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 This is off the RCBS website and it is 100% true. It is easier to adjust with a separate seater and crimper die. However, millions of rounds get loaded every year with a combination seater/crimper. Don't worry about it and when you find a Lee die you can change your set up. RCBS® pioneered and developed 3-Die Sets for straight-wall rifle and pistol cases. The Carbide Sizer Die sizes the case and de-primes (the carbide sizer ring eliminates the need to lubricate). The Expander Die expands the case to the proper diameter to accept the bullet, and it imparts case mouth flare/bell for bullet feeding. The Seater Die seats the bullet and roll crimps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holloman Posted June 3, 2021 Author Share Posted June 3, 2021 How "uniform" do my cases have to be length wise. When sorting my cases I found there to be normal variation of 3-4 thousands (1.275-1.279) I set aside any longer than that for trimming. I had a couple that were down around 1.271. I only have about 200 good cases right now (I only shoot .45 in rifles -- pistols and my main match rifle are .38-40.) and all have had the case mouths expanded for seating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holloman Posted June 3, 2021 Author Share Posted June 3, 2021 2 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said: Don't worry about it and when you find a Lee die you can change your set up. I use a single stage press so I change my set up with every step. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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