Utah Bob #35998 Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 Side by side comparison of the the US Army model 1872 officers saber compared to the M1902. The 1872 retained the wire wrapped leather grip of the previous 1840 and 1860 cavalry sabers while the 1902 used a smooth finger grip handle; initially made of either horn or wood, and eventually changed to a black composition plastic. Length, blade profile and weight are pretty much identical. The M1902 is still the official army saber, although it is relegated to ceremonial rather than combat use. The 1872 in spite of what is portrayed in the John Wayne films was rarely used in the campaigns of the late 19th century. The age of the sword had pretty much passed by then. Pistols and carbines were the favored cavalry weapons. Of course Lt. George Patton (a highly competent fencer and horseman) denied the march of time and designed a very impressive cavalry saber in 1912, based on the British blade he had seen while seconded to the British Army for 2 years. It was carried into Mexico by the cavalry in pursuit of Pancho Villa in 1916. But they were sent back across the border as an unnecessary encumbrance, George must have been livid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 I wonder why a shorter version of the saber was never made or used? and, I don’t mean the bayonet, either. Catt Brules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted May 21, 2021 Author Share Posted May 21, 2021 The 1832 Artillery saber looked a lot like a Roman Gladius. But on horseback you need length. The 1840 noncom infantry sword was in between the cavalry saber and the short sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Riot Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 How coincidental. My wife and I just finished the BBC series “Musketeers” last night and today I was perusing swords. I found a copy of a 1917 Cutlass made by Cold Steel on Amazon and added it to my list. It is my hope that someone in my family will see that I absolutely need this sword snd it will appear under the tree. I will not be holding my breath though. A.G. Russell knives years ago had a similar sword that was a copy of an 1826 Cutlass commissioned by the US Navy. For some reason my wife felt that I didn’t need one of those and alas, they weren’t available for long. Here is the link for the Cold steel Cutlass. Cold Steel 88CS 1917 Cutlass Handle with Leather Scabbard, Black https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B000H6KTLW/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_8YP7785FTHN2WB986QMM?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1 Perhaps I could use my new cutlass to hunt down Otto Communista and perforate his sorry carcass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michigan Slim Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 No Pat, we ain't buyin it neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpo Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 10 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said: Perhaps I could use my new cutlass to hunt down Otto Communista and perforate his sorry carcass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 If god had wanted me to stab someone he wouldn't have invented guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 1 hour ago, Utah Bob #35998 said: The 1832 Artillery saber looked a lot like a Roman Gladius. But on horseback you need length. The 1840 noncom infantry sword was in between the cavalry saber and the short sword. If I recall correctly, in the War of 1861 that artillery sword was reegated to the limber chest or artificers wagon quickly once the campaigning started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 The use of bayonets and swords was so rare in the Civil War that the few times one was used were actually mentioned in reports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted May 22, 2021 Author Share Posted May 22, 2021 41 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said: If I recall correctly, in the War of 1861 that artillery sword was reegated to the limber chest or artificers wagon quickly once the campaigning started. Yes. It was pretty much a copy of the French short sword. Maybe good for chopping kindling. Or gladiator fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Church Key, SASS # 33713 Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 There was the little matter of nasty fighting on a hill and some very tough folks with bayonets: Little Round Top was successfully defended by a brigade under Colonel Strong Vincent, who was mortally wounded during the fighting and died five days later. The 20th Maine Volunteer Infantry Regiment, commanded by Colonel Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain, fought its most famous engagement there, culminating in a dramatic downhill bayonet charge. The battle at Little Round Top subsequently became one of the most well-known actions at Gettysburg, and of the entire war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted May 22, 2021 Author Share Posted May 22, 2021 1 hour ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said: The use of bayonets and swords was so rare in the Civil War that the few times one was used were actually mentioned in reports. Swords yeah, bayonets were utilized in almost every assault. The tactics of the time were Naploeanic. March across the field and charge with bayonets after the enemy line loosed a volley. Problem was the weapons were much more accurate in 62 than they were at Waterloo and there might not be a whole lot of guys left to charge. Lee found that out at Gettysburg. Fighting spirit and cold steel don’t always win the day. The Union Cavalry favored the saber early on. The Rebs were better horsemen overall and preferred several pistols or shotguns for close in fighting. After awhile the Yanks understood the “knife to a gunfight” concept and changed with the situation. Although Nathan Bedford Forrest said he killed 7 men with his Old Wristbreaker. And Wade Hampton carried a whopper of a straight bladed, double edged 38 inch blade made in Germany. Standard saber has about a 30-32 inch blade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustin Checotah Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 3 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said: Here is the link for the Cold steel Cutlass. Cold Steel 88CS 1917 Cutlass Handle with Leather Scabbard, Black https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B000H6KTLW/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_8YP7785FTHN2WB986QMM?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1 This looks sort of like the one I carried in boot camp when I was Recruit CPO. It has been a while since I carried it and I had to do the salute and order arms and manual of arms with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 Took this photo at the Little Bighorn Battlefield of Custer's sword. The card says Custer captured from a Confederate Officer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 4 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said: And Wade Hampton carried a whopper of a straight bladed, double edged 38 inch blade made in Germany. Standard saber has about a 30-32 inch blade. I have a replica of a Napoleonic French Cuirassier's sword and its blade is 37.75 inches. It is a beast! Cuirassiers complained about their sword being too difficult to wield and parry in a cavalry vs cavalry melee. French Cuirassier Sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted May 22, 2021 Author Share Posted May 22, 2021 Here’s the 1872 vs the repro Patton I have. The Patton blade is a little over 35”. It weighs in at 2lb 6oz. The 1872 is 1lb 6oz. The Patton was designed to be strapped to the horse furniture rather than a sword belt. It was simply too big to walk around with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 I fancy the 1872 officers Model. Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted May 22, 2021 Author Share Posted May 22, 2021 39 minutes ago, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said: I fancy the 1872 officers Model. Jabez Cowboy Ditto. I use it for VFW ceremonies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted May 22, 2021 Author Share Posted May 22, 2021 9 hours ago, Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 said: Took this photo at the Little Bighorn Battlefield of Custer's sword. The card says Custer captured from a Confederate Officer. Yes. That was the sword Custer carried through the end of the war. I don’t know what he carried at the LBH or even if he had one at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted May 22, 2021 Author Share Posted May 22, 2021 There was another sword in the lineage that is quite rare. The M1904 was an attempt to improve on the 1872 which was apparently plagued with manufacturing problems. Many western troops preferred the more robust 1860. Only a few thousand of the 1904s were made. In appearance it resembled the 1872. The hilt and guard were blackened iron. It is wait to also have been a defective sword and eventually led to the adoption of the Patton design. The Patton saber was the last one issued to cavalrymen. It was no longer issued after 1934. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted May 22, 2021 Author Share Posted May 22, 2021 If you’re interested here are some good info and photos of the 1840 and 1860 sabers. https://sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/50945/cavalry-m1840-1860-saber-family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted May 22, 2021 Author Share Posted May 22, 2021 And lastly just a passel of ‘Merican steel. https://www.americanswords.com/sword-identification.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted May 22, 2021 Author Share Posted May 22, 2021 Last pointy thing pics, I promise. For now. An as yet unidentified saber that was given to me by a friend. It was found in the wall of an old house in Boston his father was demolishing back in the 60s. Shown with the 1872 for size comparison. The overall design is similar to the NCO sword but the blade is much thinner and very flexible. The steel scabbard and blade appear to have been blued or browned initially. The handle is missing the wire wound leather wrapping. There are no markings visible nut there may be something on the ricasso under the guard. I recently acquired an optical probe for rifle bores that will fit in there so I'll be trying that later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 1 hour ago, Utah Bob #35998 said: Last pointy thing pics, I promise. For now. An as yet unidentified saber that was given to me by a friend. It was found in the wall of an old house in Boston his father was demolishing back in the 60s. Shown with the 1872 for size comparison. The overall design is similar to the NCO sword but the blade is much thinner and very flexible. The steel scabbard and blade appear to have been blued or browned initially. The handle is missing the wire wound leather wrapping. There are no markings visible nut there may be something on the ricasso under the guard. I recently acquired an optical probe for rifle bores that will fit in there so I'll be trying that later. You likely already know this, but check fraternal order swords. It puts me in mind of Patriotic Order Sons of America (something like that) sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted May 23, 2021 Author Share Posted May 23, 2021 5 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said: You likely already know this, but check fraternal order swords. It puts me in mind of Patriotic Order Sons of America (something like that) sword. Yeah I have poured over pics of them for years. Starting with the Boston and New England based organizations. The motif on the guard would indicate a patriotic/military tie rather than just purely fraternal. But no luck. Most all the organizations have some identifier albeit sometimes quite cryptic. But no clues. It’s probably a lower end commercial generic sword for use by local militia captains, mayors, and minor functionaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Church Key, SASS # 33713 Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 I was in the Jr ROTC (High School Cadets) at McKinley Tech in Washington, DC from 1951-54. At one point was made first Sergeant of C Company and was issued a Government-property NCO sword that was stamped 1862 on the hilt along with a Springfield 1903. Had to turn in the sword when I was promoted to an officer. Bought a used saber at a uniform shop for $15 that I still have. Officers had to supply their own sword and Sam Browne rig. It's a Knights of Pythias Uniformed Rank sword made by Horstman of Philadelphia, PA between 1893-1935; 32" in length. It's engraved "T C Williams". Tried to find out who he was, but no luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watab kid Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 i had an M1860 a number of years ago , it was something to make one wonder , i cannot imagine wielding it or living with the memory in the aftermath , not had those thoughts with my bayonets tho - not sure why Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 What was policy on new swords?. Was it, for example, “effective [date] all officers must use the 1872 design sword” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 Dag-Nabit! I've been resisting buying a new saber for quite some time now, but because of this thread, I've bought a saber thru Midway. As many of you know, I've a fascination with the Napoleonic Wars. Now, I have always admired the British 1796 Light Cavalry Saber. This saber was also used by the Prussian light cavalry and is sometimes known as the "Blucher Saber" after the famous Prussian, Marshal Blucher. Well, I ordered thru Midway, the Cold Steel, 1796 Light Cavalry Saber (replica). As shown in the videos below, I will not chop up hanging meat with it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpo Posted May 25, 2021 Share Posted May 25, 2021 5 minutes ago, Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 said: and is sometimes known as the "Blucher Saber" If every time you bring your saber out, the horses rear in fear, doesn't that make it difficult to ride? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted May 26, 2021 Author Share Posted May 26, 2021 On 5/22/2021 at 11:15 PM, watab kid said: i had an M1860 a number of years ago , it was something to make one wonder , i cannot imagine wielding it or living with the memory in the aftermath , not had those thoughts with my bayonets tho - not sure why The connection with a sword is extremely personal, and visceral. It is an extension of your arm. While the bayonet is also a very up close and personal weapon it is also attached to the rifle and not directly in contact with the wielder. I’ve never heard of anyone giving a name to their bayonet. It was not uncommon for swords back in the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Church Key, SASS # 33713 Posted May 26, 2021 Share Posted May 26, 2021 Unofficial definition of a bayonet: "A piece of steel with a peasant at either end." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muley Gil SASS # 57795 Posted May 26, 2021 Share Posted May 26, 2021 Here are my favorite swords: The top sword is a copy of the 1860 cavalry saber that was given to me by a dear, late friend. The middle sword is an original late 1860s Marine Corps officer's sword. This pattern is the same as the 1850 US Army Foot officer's sword and was carried by Marine officers and by NCOs between 1859 and 1875. In 1875, the Corps went back to the Mameluke handle officer's sword. At that time, NCOs kept the 1850 pattern sword. The bottom sword is my current production Marine officer's sword. The second photo is the USMC found on the middle sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted May 26, 2021 Author Share Posted May 26, 2021 8 hours ago, Muley Gil SASS # 57795 said: Here are my favorite swords: The top sword is a copy of the 1860 cavalry saber that was given to me by a dear, late friend. The middle sword is an original late 1860s Marine Corps officer's sword. This pattern is the same as the 1850 US Army Foot officer's sword and was carried by Marine officers and by NCOs between 1859 and 1875. In 1875, the Corps went back to the Mameluke handle officer's sword. At that time, NCOs kept the 1850 pattern sword. The bottom sword is my current production Marine officer's sword. The second photo is the USMC found on the middle sword. Excellent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted May 26, 2021 Share Posted May 26, 2021 After reading this thread I ran across an auction that had some artillery and naval sabers (both union and conferderate). I almost bid even though I have no idea what a fair price for them would be. Instead I bought a krag rifle with a bayonet. Enablers. Every one of ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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