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Obsolete pistol ammo article


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Field and stream has an article on dying obsolete pistol ammo.  Among them us the 32acp and the 40 s&w .

 

Beretta still makes a 32acp pistol.  Glock and Smith both make numerous 40 pistols.  I'm not sure I buy the idea they are dying.  

 

25acp was also mentioned and it is a pointless round.

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I just bought a new Beretta Tom Cat 32 acp. It's a great little pocket pistol. I had a lot of factory ammo and plenty of supplies to build a large reserve of ammo. 

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I Keep telling folks that bottom feeders are a passing fad- just like smokeless powder- but nobody seems to pay any attention.:D

 

Seriously, the guy at F&S must have been smoking something when he wrote the article because it's a pipe dream. 

 

The only round mentioned that he's right about was the .45GAP- Gluck's vanity project and an answer to a question nobody felt the need to ask. 

 

The .32 is more popular overseas than it ever has been in the US, the .40 and the .25 are going to be around long after F&S folds, the .41 and .32 Mags both have cult followings or fill niches. 

 

Come on!  Folks have been trying to proclaim the .41's demise for 40 years- and, in 40 more years, will be tying to do so still.

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Only from watching those various EARLY films on TV as a kid did I know about the caliber .25Auto cartridge.  Those extra-small, tiny pistols I used to see in pawn shops were .25’s.  I still believe they have a place...... for concealment and in the hands of small men and women.  I believe the .380 cartridge has taken its place   The .25 ammo is smaller, the weapon is smaller, recoil and muzzle flash and report are less.....as, of course, is its stopping power.  But getting hit by any caliber bullet is no picnic.  I think the .25 is still a good weapon (those tiny centerfire pistols) to have.  Obviously, the ammo manufacturers don’t make much selling .25’s, so there’s the reason to stop making the ammo, and making those tiny pistols, obsolete.  Time to buy one, if there are even any still out there, and a box of ammo, before they all disappear.

 

Cat Brules

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1 minute ago, Cat Brules said:

Obviously, the ammo manufacturers don’t make much selling .25’s,

Obviously you've never bought any. Just like 410 SHOULD be cheaper than 12 gauge, but it ain't, 25 SHOULD be cheaper than 45. But it ain't.

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37 minutes ago, Alpo said:

Obviously you've never bought any. Just like 410 SHOULD be cheaper than 12 gauge, but it ain't, 25 SHOULD be cheaper than 45. But it ain't.

 

Economy of scale.  .410 and .25 ACP are not as big sellers as 12 gauge and .45 ACP, but the setup costs for a run are the same.  Yes, the individual components are less expensive, but when you have the same set up cost spread out over a run of, say, 250,000 vs. a run of 5,000,000 that means the cost per round for that set up is much higher for the short run.

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2 hours ago, Trigger Mike said:

Field and stream has an article on dying obsolete pistol ammo.  Among them us the 32acp and the 40 s&w .

 

Beretta still makes a 32acp pistol.  Glock and Smith both make numerous 40 pistols.  I'm not sure I buy the idea they are dying.  

 

25acp was also mentioned and it is a pointless round.

 

It seems your issue is the definition of "obsolete."  Obsolete does not mean useless or worthless.  It simply means superseded by something else.

 

If 32 ACP ever had a day, it hasn't been in my lifetime or my parents. 

 

40 S&W was invented because of perceived deficiencies in the world's most popular handgun caliber, 9mm Luger.  Modern bullet construction has made performance distinctions between 9mm Luger and 40 S&W basically non existent, rendering the caliber nothing other than a way to have a 9mm pistol with less capacity and more recoil.  Accordingly, the same law enforcement agencies--including the one that started the trend and maintains a ballistic laboratory to study terminal ballistics--have gone to 9mm, rendering 40 S&W obsolete.

 

I'm not sure 25 ACP ever had a purpose, so I have to agree with you there.

 

1 hour ago, Alpo said:

Obviously you've never bought any. Just like 410 SHOULD be cheaper than 12 gauge, but it ain't, 25 SHOULD be cheaper than 45. But it ain't.

 

What something should cost in a competitive market is determined by market forces.  Someone above already brought up the concept of "economies of scale."  The most popular pistol caliber is 9mm Luger by a long way.  The most popular shotgun ammunition is 12 gauge, again by a considerable margin.  .45 ACP is drastically more popular than anything in .25" diameter.

 

Price is not determined by the raw material used to make a product.  The price of inputs such as that have some, and even significant, influence on the supply curve, but if there is no demand, it doesn't matter what the inputs cost to make a product, it will not be produced.  Supply is just one side of the market.  It is the intersection between supply and demand, not one or the other, that determines price.

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Posted (edited)

The 41 mag is one of my favorite calibers,for many years it was my woods walking gun at least until the 32 magnum came along.

Through my police career I carried a Baby Browning in my pocket as a backup gun or my going to court gun. It’s happily retired now replaced by a Ruger LCP but it will never be sold 

Edited by Henry T Harrison
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2 hours ago, Snakebite said:

I just bought a new Beretta Tom Cat 32 acp. It's a great little pocket pistol. I had a lot of factory ammo and plenty of supplies to build a large reserve of ammo. 

I got one for my wife because her Charter Arms Undercover was "too bulky".

 

My daughter has it now and loves the little thing.

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3 hours ago, Trigger Mike said:

Field and stream has an article on dying obsolete pistol ammo.  Among them us the 32acp and the 40 s&w .

 

Beretta still makes a 32acp pistol.  Glock and Smith both make numerous 40 pistols.  I'm not sure I buy the idea they are dying.  

 

25acp was also mentioned and it is a pointless round.

Field and Stream is a hunting / fishing magazine and has no value (IMHO) as a source of info on anything that doesn't fit one of those two categories.

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I thought .40 SW was a cut down 10mm cause the 10mm was too hard for smaller folks in federal LEO roles to handle.

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These days the .25 ACP really doesn't have a viable role, since there are .380 sub compact pistols out there not much bigger than a Baby Browning, but when it was first invented way back in 1905 it was chambered in by far the smallest pistols then available.  When fired from the same barrel length the .25 ACP is marginally more powerful and much more reliable than the .22 LR.    Not my preferred choice for self defense, but better than nothing.

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Posted (edited)

Seecamp also makes .32s and I like it better than the .380 model.  Out of those little guns the .380 has a pretty nasty recoil.  .32s were very common before WWII and some armies even used them as sidearms.  WWI was started when the Archduke and his wife were killed by a Serbian with a .32 Browning.  Seems animals and people must have gotten tougher over the years.  Use to be a .30-30 was adequate for deer.  Now you have to have . 397 turbo magnum with a laser scope to shoot at deer at 50 yards.  .32s and even .25s were sold in the millions and were perfectly adequate for self defense.  Now you have to have a .45 magnum mark seven.  Are people and animals really tougher or is it advertising?

 

As a side note it is amazing how quickly the .40 S&W has fallen out of favor.  Several local gun shops no longer take them in trade.  The local Cabelas even had a sign in their gun library that they will no longer take .40 S&Ws in trade.

Edited by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933
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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

Economy of scale.  .410 and .25 ACP are not as big sellers as 12 gauge and .45 ACP, but the setup costs for a run are the same.  Yes, the individual components are less expensive, but when you have the same set up cost spread out over a run of, say, 250,000 vs. a run of 5,000,000 that means the cost per round for that set up is much higher for the short run.

You are actually pointing out a cross-industry irony.  The automobile industry was modernized by the introduction of the assembly line which was enabled by the manufacturing of interchangeable parts; a revolutionary concept that started in firearms manufacturing.  Today, applying SMED (Single Minute Exchange of Dies) auto manufacturers can execute high quality, economically viable low volume runs.  Maybe it's time for the innovation to flow back to firearms and the ammo manufacturers find a way to apply SMED.  It would also help them recover and rebalance the post-production supply chain.

Edited by Ozark Shark
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1 hour ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Seecamp also makes .32s and I like it better than the .380 model.  Out of those little guns the .380 has a pretty nasty recoil.  .32s were very common before WWII and some armies even used them as sidearms.  WWI was started when the Archduke and his wife were killed by a Serbian with a .32 Browning.  Seems animals and people must have gotten tougher over the years.  Use to be a .30-30 was adequate for deer.  Now you have to have . 397 turbo magnum with a laser scope to shoot at deer at 50 yards.  .32s and even .25s were sold in the millions and were perfectly adequate for self defense.  Now you have to have a .45 magnum mark seven.  Are people and animals really tougher or is it advertising?

 

As a side note it is amazing how quickly the .40 S&W has fallen out of favor.  Several local gun shops no longer take them in trade.  The local Cabelas even had a sign in their gun library that they will no longer take .40 S&Ws in trade.

Actually, like the improvements in 9mm bullet performance developed the last 15 years, applying modern materials and ballistics engineering to .25acp and .32acp, especially the .32acp, would seem to make sense for the CC market.

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:unsure: I think some gun writers write about things that they wish were true. 
.40 S&W ain’t going anywhere. I sure would like to see the Feds sell off all that surplus ammo they all bought that caused the ammo shortage during the Obama years. I might just buy me a .40 then. :lol:

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5 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Seecamp also makes .32s and I like it better than the .380 model.  Out of those little guns the .380 has a pretty nasty recoil.  .32s were very common before WWII and some armies even used them as sidearms.  WWI was started when the Archduke and his wife were killed by a Serbian with a .32 Browning.  Seems animals and people must have gotten tougher over the years.  Use to be a .30-30 was adequate for deer.  Now you have to have . 397 turbo magnum with a laser scope to shoot at deer at 50 yards.  .32s and even .25s were sold in the millions and were perfectly adequate for self defense.  Now you have to have a .45 magnum mark seven.  Are people and animals really tougher or is it advertising?

 

As a side note it is amazing how quickly the .40 S&W has fallen out of favor.  Several local gun shops no longer take them in trade.  The local Cabelas even had a sign in their gun library that they will no longer take .40 S&Ws in trade.

People aren't any tougher these days, just more enlightened.  All of those people that were killed by .25s and .32s didn't have access to gun forums and youtube videos like we do now.  Since they were ignorant of the fact that those cartridges were inadequate, they simply died when shot by them.  If only they had known. :lol:

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One of the things that accelerated the supposed demise of the 40 was the last shortage that began oh, around 2012 and lasted to around 2018-9. Departments realized 9mm was easier to get, cheaper (cost effective) and with ammunition like Speer Gold Dot, the 9 was comparable to the caliber that once replaced it. Not to mention recruits, being "kindler & gentler" objected to the heavier recoil impulse of the 40. Back in the day, the 41Mag was destined to replace the 357Mag. Introducing the JHP load before the LSWC load probably had a role in turning people away from the new caliber, not to mention a four inch N frame is heavier and bulkier than a K frame. See, police have always been faced with too much crap on their belts and every ounce counts. (don't ask me how I know that LOL)

And so it goes.

 

There was a time when our "War On Drugs" guys decided they needed a tiny little pistol for times when their undercovers didn't want to carry a gun. (carrying a Glock in that circumstance is a poor choice; Glock = cop) And, if they were searched during a buy, a common occurrence.... well, you see why they liked the tiny gun idea. They chose the Beretta 25. Not really a bad choice, but. Of course I had to design an appropriate training and qualification course for them. When the LT, whom I had worked with as a deputy, worked for as a Sgt pulled me aside and said he was curious why I wasn't all upset they have bought guns I really didn't like, I told him it wasn't my ass on the line. They are HIS guys and this is what they chose. My personal opinion is not relevant. My job is to provide training in the operation and employment which I did. See, that little 25 is better than none. If it works and saves a life, hooray. If it fails then it sucks to be you. Those little peashooters became a passing fad rather quickly.....but I still wouldn't want to get shot with one.

 

As for F&S....I stopped all of my magazine subscriptions decades ago. Only one I get now is American Rifleman and I don't even peruse the magazine rack at the grocery anymore because of articles like this. Reading these type of articles just makes me feel tired all over LOL.

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Posted (edited)

If "obsolete" is equivalent to "unavailable"... almost all ammo fits that category today...
:D

Edited by bgavin
edited for better wording
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18 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

:unsure: I think some gun writers write about things that they wish were true. 
.40 S&W ain’t going anywhere. I sure would like to see the Feds sell off all that surplus ammo they all bought that caused the ammo shortage during the Obama years. I might just buy me a .40 then. :lol:

They'll destroy it all before they'll let civilians have it.

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