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AWA lightning questions from a new member


Johnny Knight

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In looking through the manual that you sent on the Taurus version (Thanks again!).  The question is how fully the 'tear down' needs to be?  Is it sufficient to be able to 'open up' the gun as far as separation of the lower trigger assembly to get at the inside of the gun, or does that require the full disassembly through all 26 steps?  Also, are there any differences to be aware of between the AWA and the Taurus versions?  Does anyone have a schematic for the AWA that would show any differences?  Sorry for all the questions, just trying to avoid creating a basket case out of my new rifle before I get to break it in.  Thanks in advance.

Johnny

 

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You're welcome!!  So I think a partial tear down every 3-4 matches is a good plan. Primarily to remove the bolt and bolt block, be able to rinse out the firing pin and its bore (you don't have to remove the firing pin and safety link, just soak it in a cleaner of your choice and blow it out to remove debris. Also good time to lubricate the ramps on the trigger assembly and inside the receiver that the bolt block slides on.

 

A complete tear down every 8-10 matches is a good thing, primarily to remove debris from under the rocker arm. This is also a good time to inspect everything, especially the spring under the rocker arm. And run a swab down your tubular magazine - you'll be surprised what collects there that gets on your cartridges and works its way into th action.

 

These rifles are not hard to tear down, but like shooting, practice makes it better as you go along.

 

RR

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  • 1 month later...

Well, had the lightning out again yesterday.  Still fighting it.  After chatting with Lassiter at EOT, I thought I had it buttoned up a bit after a thorough cleaning and adjusting the tension on the feed ramp screws.  Cycled dummy rounds flawlessly (the dummy rounds are loaded exactly as my regular loads, sans powder and primer).  But, when I went to shoot yesterday, it was feeding two shells, kicking one completely out of the breech.  Lassiter mentioned the need to adjust the feed ramp to absorb the momentum of the rounds coming out of the magazine, so still figuring out how to accomplish that.  Safe to say, its a work in progress......

Johnny

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Johnny Knight..

Can you more clearly describe the "feeding two shells, kicking one completely out of the breech"? I'm not quite clear on what is happening and how you are getting two rounds to come up onto the lifter. Unless your cartridge stop lever (the part that holds the next round in the magazine) is not coming up far enough to stop the next round, the rifle can only feed one cartridge onto the lifter at a time. You may have to adjust the tabs on the sides of the tubular magazine to ensure the next cartridge is positioned properly against the cartridge stop lever. See Addendum K and Fig. 68 in my manual for how to adjust that. 

 

Also, you said "adjusting the tension of the feed ramp [lifter] screws..." -  I'd be interested to know what adjustment you made since the two screws are just pivot points, not adjusters - the sides of the lifter fit snugly in the frame - . Please clarify.

 

Lastly, to check how snugly your lifter is fitted to the frame.... If you open your action and then move the bolt forward 1/2˝, and then put an 8oz to 9oz weight (see photo below) on the end of the lifter closest to the chamber, it should just begin to easily go down. If it drops too freely with, let's say 4oz or 5oz weight, then it is set entirely too lightly and will cause feeding jams (i.e., the lifter will begin to fall as a round is being fed into the chamber causing the cartridge to jam at an angle). Ideally the lifter should not be able to go down with less than a 9oz or 10oz load on its inner-most end.

 

While other Lightning owners may benefit from this thread, you have my contact info in the back of the manual - email or call if if you have questions. 

 

RR

77 measuring lifter resistance web.jpg

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Thanks Roger,

While the action was apart, I was polishing the areas you've indicated in your Taurus guide to make sure they were smooth.  I noticed the two screws that the lifter pivot on were quite loose, so I gave them an extra half turn or so.  That seemed to stiffen up the lifter a bit so that it didn't go down as easily.  I haven't yet put weights on it to get an exact amount.  I'll do that so that I have  a more accurate measure.  If it needs adjusting, then I assume I would need to widen the piece so that it has more tension between the plates?

After having tightened the screws it cycled nicely with the dummy rounds, but guessing that a few live rounds loosened up the extra 1/2 turn on the lifter?

When I was firing, it seemed a second round had popped out on its own.  I was pumping it rapidly, so didn't catch the details of what happened.

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JK...You're welcome!!  :) 

 

The two screws that the lifter pivots on actually don't have to be tight. When the rifle is assembled, they are trapped between the lower and upper frames and can't come out. Even if they loosen, they have no where to go and will still perform their pivot function. When they are all the way in, only the pivot-pin end of the screws go into the holes in the lifter, so further tightening them doesn't change their pressure on the lifter or the friction fit of the lifter in its channel. 

 

Tightening the lifter is done by bending the two fingers outward. HOWEVER, it is a very tricky adjustment and I don't recommend doing it because replacement parts are no longer available from Taurus.

 

On the "second round" issue, what might have happened is that you had a stovepipe round that popped out ---- when you pulled back on the slide it extracted the empty from the chamber, ejected it, while at the same time the next round stovepiped (flipped up) and came out of the action. Does that sound like the problem. If so, do I assume correctly that your rifle is a .357 model and are you shooting .38 Specials in it?

 

RR

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Stovepiping on a Lightning is usually caused by the cartridge not being gripped snuggly (when the bolt is all the way back) between the lifter an the two cartridge guides/ejection plates (the two plates on either side of the receiver that are held in place with one screw).

 

Put one of your dummy rounds in the rifle, work the action so that the bolt comes all the way back, and while holding the bolt open (slide all the way back) use a small screwdriver or pick to see how securely - or loose - the cartridge is being held under the two cartridge guides. While the slide is being held all the way back, can you push the cartridge forward toward or into the chamber?

RR

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I had some "reverse" stove piping in my .32-20 Colt recently.   By reverse I mean that the rim end of a cartridge would stick straight up after the empty was ejected.

I took the magazine tube off and cleaned out a lot of gunk in the area where the tube goes into the frame.  While I had the tube off, I also cleaned it the same as if it were the bore of the rifle.

After I cleaned all of that up and reoiled everything, the stove pipe problem went away.

Yet another example of "Keep the Lighting clean" seems to solve a lot of problems.

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H.K.U.  Interesting find on having the rim-end stovepipe upward. Hmmm. Although the tapered cases that the Lightning was originally designed for (.44-40, .38-40, and .32-20) were generally less prone to stovepiping (because of how tapered shells get held between the lifter and the cartridge guides) then straight-walled cases like .45LC and .357, it seems that smaller diameter cases - like .32-20 and .357 - are more prone to stovepiping than the larger cases; again mostly due to the interference fit and tolerance of the smaller diameter cartridge between the lifter and the guides.

 

But still, even with picky details Lightnings are too fun to shoot.

 

I don't see you on the SASS Western Regional match list - are you going to Bordertown?

 

RR

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2 hours ago, Roger Rapid said:

H.K.U.  Interesting find on having the rim-end stovepipe upward. Hmmm. Although the tapered cases that the Lightning was originally designed for (.44-40, .38-40, and .32-20) were generally less prone to stovepiping (because of how tapered shells get held between the lifter and the cartridge guides) then straight-walled cases like .45LC and .357, it seems that smaller diameter cases - like .32-20 and .357 - are more prone to stovepiping than the larger cases; again mostly due to the interference fit and tolerance of the smaller diameter cartridge between the lifter and the guides.

 

But still, even with picky details Lightnings are too fun to shoot.

 

I don't see you on the SASS Western Regional match list - are you going to Bordertown?

 

RR

 

Wish I could, but right now it's not in the cards.   Everything at work is in flux.    I've been told that "normal" operations will resume "soon."  So, therefore, don't schedule a vacation until the dates for the events are finalized.   Of course. WHEN everything will be finalized is anyone's guess.

As far as the reverse stove pipe goes, someone suggested making sure the magazine tube was clean.   That's why I took it off.   Once I got in there, I discovered all the gunk in the action and cleaned it out.  Comparing my .32-20 which is a Colt, to a .44-40 Colt that I also have, I noticed that some of the dimensions on the .32 are slightly smaller.  It's intriguing to say the least.

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Well, I can safely say the cartridge is not being held snugly.  When I'm cycling the action, the round is basically launching out of the tube and popping completely out of the breech.  So, it doesn't look like it is being trapped at all between the lifter and the ejection plates.

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Hi Johnny Knight. Sounds like you've found the problem. It appears that the lifter is not coming up far enough to secure the cartridge between the lifter and the two cartridge guides - OR - that the cartridge guides were accidentally swapped. While the guides appear to be symmetrical, there is a left and right guide (photo below). Note that one side of the guide has a tapered cut (the black edge in center of guide facing you) where the round being ejected slides over and into the guides before it is ejected. The guide shown here is the right side guide. You should see those tapered edges when you look down into the receiver. The problem you describe will happen if the guides are swapped.

 

RR

cartridge guide Taurus.jpg

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Thanks for the comments Roger.  I had looked at the cartridge guides when I last had it apart.  I was pretty sure I had the orientation correct.  Here is a picture of the breech.  It looks to me to be correct.  I've also attached a video of cycling the round.  It doesn't look like the rim of the case is contacting anything before the ramp comes up and flips the round out of the chamber.  My understanding is that as the round comes out of the magazine and onto the feed ramp it is supposed to be 'caught' at the back rim to slow it down and hold it as the feed ramp pivots up to align it with the chamber before the bolt comes forward to push it into the chamber.

lightning breech.jpg

lightning cycling action

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Hi Johnny... Yes, your cartridge guides are correct. So, what actually happens in the Lightning is... as the bolt closes, the lifter is pushed down. When the bolt gets to about 3/8˝ from closing - i.e., the slide is almost all the way forward - the slide pushes down on the cartridge stop lever and the next cartridge is released and pushed against a tang on the bottom of the bolt. Then as the bolt opens - and the slide comes back - the cartridge continues to be pushed against the tang on the bolt and is lead onto the lifter. (When the side is about 1/4 of the way back, the cartridge stop lever comes up again and presses against the bottom of the bullet coming onto the lifter as the lifter slides over the stop lever. So... as soon as the cartridge comes onto the lifter, the next cartridge is stopped by the cartridge stop lever.) So when the bolt is almost all the way back, the bolt block (the toggle attached to the bottom of the bolt) pushes down on the two "cams" (tabs) on the lifter and forces the lifter up.

 

So........, there could be wear on the two cams on your lifter, or wear on the bottom of the bolt block, or wear on the bolt's track that allows the entire bolt (and bolt block) to sit too high.

 

In either case, the cartridge must get trapped between the lifter and the guides. Trick is to find out why it's not.

 

Hope this helps...

 

RR

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So, it sounds like my understanding is correct on the mechanics of the operation.  I cycled the rounds slowly and observed that the round is coming out of the tube cleanly and moves to the back of the ramp as it should, the ramp then cams up and contacts the cartridge guides as it should, but apparently their is insufficient tension being supplied by the ramp so that as soon as the bolt goes forward, the ramp drops allowing the cartridge to flop around on top of the ramp.  When I cycle the gun quickly all you see is the cartridge flipping out.  I finally realized I could use some old scales to make a 10 ounces  weight to check the ramp tension.  The feed ramp was lowering the first 1/4" or so with almost no weight (why the cartridge wasn't being 'clamped' at all), but would then lower all the way down with about 3 ounces of weight.  So, it is looking like we are back to the original issue of widening out the feed ramp to create enough tension to support the 10 oz weight ( You suggested earlier at least 8 oz., preferably 10 oz.).  Earlier you also commented: "Tightening the lifter is done by bending the two fingers outward. HOWEVER, it is a very tricky adjustment and I don't recommend doing it because replacement parts are no longer available from Taurus."

Though this is the AWA, my understanding is the parts are just as unavailable, so is there a recommended method for widening out the two fingers?

 

Ps. Now that I think about it, the feed ramp pretty much 'dropped in' when I had it apart.  In retrospect, it should have required at least a bit of squeezing if it was to provide any tension for the pivot action as I understand it now.

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Johnny...

Much like SASS originally not allowing us to post loads, I'm apprehensive on sharing how to bend the fingers on the lifter because I don't want to be responsible if things go wrong. However, in the spirit of trying to be helpful, I'll show you a photo of how it is done and leave the rest - and responsibility - up to you. It is important to secure the connected end of the lifter in a vise (see photo) so that you are not prying at the joint where the fingers join the lifter's small cross member. The fingers can be bent slightly as shown here. Also, you can heat one or both of the fingers before you pry them outward. I can't tell you how much to bend them because I don't know how wide they are now. But...  the fingers should be about .050˝ - .060˝ wider than the channel they fit into in order to be a snug fit. If they break, you'll have to find or make a new lifter.

 

Another option - and a bit safer - is to float some silver solder on the sides of the lifter's fingers to build up the sides of the fingers. Study the diamond-shaped bosses on the Pedersoli Lightning lifter (photo below) - These are the friction pads that apply the snug fit in a Pedersoli Lightning. This is where you could apply some silver solder.

RR

80 bending lifter arms sasswire.jpg

Lifter.jpg

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51 minutes ago, Johnny Knight said:

Ps. Now that I think about it, the feed ramp pretty much 'dropped in' when I had it apart.  In retrospect, it should have required at least a bit of squeezing if it was to provide any tension for the pivot action as I understand it now.

 

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Thanks Roger, I appreciate the advice and will publicly recognize that I'm the only responsible for anything I do with my gun.  All I'm going to do is say thanks for sharing your experience with the gun and its operational mechanics.  I've done quite a bit of metal work over the years, so not worried about working on it.  If I needed to, I could fabricate another part.  Just wanted to make sure that there wasn't some interplay between the parts that I hadn't noticed.  Guessing that the part is mild steel, but I'll have a better idea once I get out into the shop to adjust it.  That will have to wait until tonight or tomorrow, as I've got company in town.  I'll update you when I get a chance to work on it.  Thanks again!

Johnny

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Well, first round made progress, but still have more adjustments to go.  The lifting arm on the AWA is similar to the Pedersoli in that it has a defined contact area.  On the AWA it is rectangular vs the diamond shape of the Pedersoli as shown in Roger's post above.  After mounting the ramp in a vice, I flexed out the arms a bit and reassembled the gun.  Initially it held the 10oz weight without lowering.  Problem appeared to be solved, and the dummy rounds cycled nicely, but as I continued to work the action it appears things broke in a bit more and it began having an occasional mis-feed.  I intentionally started gently on the lifting arm adjustment, so it appears it will just need a bit more to account for it breaking in.  One curiosity is whether roughing up the contact area might be another way to achieve the increased friction necessary to hold the 10 weight.  I know that goes against the grain of wanting contact parts polished up to slick the action, but given the need for the friction fit to provide the necessary support, it seems that might be another way to skin the cat on this one...Just thinking out loud, but curious if anyone has experimented with that option... 

lightning lift ramp.jpg

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So, second round of adjustments has improved the action a bit more, but still having issues with the first round or two out of the tube.  It appears that the magazine tube spring is too strong and is launching the rounds onto the feed ramp with such momentum that it is overcoming the increased tension on the feed ramp.  After the first round or two are cycled, the remaining cartridges are cycling fine.  While one option would be to cut down the spring, does anyone know of a replacement spring for a lightning that I could experiment with, rather than modifying my original spring?  It appears one option, would be to just order a standard magazine tube spring for an 1873, which I'm guessing should work.

Thanks in advance.

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JK...

I don't recall length of your rifle (20" carbine?, 24"? 26"?) - Yes, a '73 spring will work for mag tube of proper length or you can order either a Uberti or Pedersoli Lightning mag spring from VTI Gunworks (of proper length).

RR

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If it works after feeding 2 rounds. Try shortening the spring an equivalent amount.

 

A general rule of thumb is the spring should be 4 cartridge lengths longer than the mag tube.

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Thanks Gentlemen.  I have the 20" carbine length.  Currently the spring extends about 3 1/4" out of the tube.  Sedalia, shooting 45 Colt, col runs about 1.6 inches, so 4 cartridges would put that at 6.4" past the tube.  The end of the spring sits in about 3/8" due to the spring retaining plug at the end.  Since the spring load is function of spring rate and length, I'm guessing that the spring I have in there simply has a higher spring rate, since the length seems about right.  In looking at a couple of spring suppliers, they recommend cutting to 3" past the barrel.  So, I'll try adjusting spring length to find the balance between not over-springing the first rounds, while retaining enough spring to load the last rounds.

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Sounds like a good plan.

 

While you have it apart be sure to give the inside of the mag tube a good cleaning followed by a good coat of car wax. Something like Turtle Wax Super Hard Shell. You want a durable coating that will not attract dirt and grime but still prevent rusting so avoid the soft carnauba waxes.

Apply it with a bore mop on a SG cleaning rod chucked into  drill

 

If you find rust, remove it with a brass bristle bore brush with some 0000 steel wool wrapped around it. Apply motor oil to the steel wool and take your time. 

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Johnny Knight... Your description leads me to wonder if when have the magazine is fully loaded with 10 rounds, and you open the action SLOWLY, does a cartridge follow the bolt back as the bolt is being drawn back, or does the bolt come back a bit and then a cartridge pops onto the lifter?

RR

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Hi Roger,

Apologies on the delay on responding, I've been continuing my self taught gunsmithing program working on a Charles Daly SxS that isn't extracting shells very cleanly.

The cartridge appears to follow the bolt back, it isn't 'popping' out of the tube.  When I first made the second round of adjustments, it was working pretty smoothly, just the first round issue.  I did trim about an inch off of the spring, once I confirmed that replacement parts are readily available.  Hard to tell whether that will solve the problem, because as I have continued to cycle dummy rounds through it, it is 'settling in' once again and doesn't support the 10 oz weight anymore.  Overall, if I'm not trying to run the gun quickly, it will do fine, but when I speed things up is when the issues arise.  My understanding is that this gun has a rhythm that is likes, so just trying to dial myself in while sorting out the issues.  At the moment, my dummy rounds are pretty worn out from all the testing, so I need to make new ones so that I have a more consistent test sample.

Johnny

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