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Why only the 1897?


9245

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2 hours ago, Frontier Lone Rider said:

I may have mis-read, but I thought 1887 lever shotguns were legal for WB.

They are not.

 

Only the following pump shotguns in 12 gauge are Wild Bunch legal:

 

Winchester 1897 (original or reproduction);

 

Reproduction shotgun known as a 93/97 (not legal for cowboy but WB legal; the slightly larger ejection port has little or no advantage since we load the magazine of the shotgun in WB); and

 

Winchester Model 12.

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9245, I was not familiar with the Stevens 520 prior to reading your post.  I ran a quick search; it has an interesting history.

 

From what I can find it has a five round magazine.  Wild Bunch stages often have six shotgun targets (the M12 was designed to hold six and the ‘97 will hold six with a minor modification), so the 520, if legal, would be like a main match rifle that holds nine rounds.

 

I would encourage you to ask your question on the Wild Bunch forum.

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1 hour ago, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said:

9245, I was not familiar with the Stevens 520 prior to reading your post.  I ran a quick search; it has an interesting history.

 

From what I can find it has a five round magazine.  Wild Bunch stages often have six shotgun targets (the M12 was designed to hold six and the ‘97 will hold six with a minor modification), so the 520, if legal, would be like a main match rifle that holds nine rounds.

 

I would encourage you to ask your question on the Wild Bunch forum.


It is an interesting one, it’s a pity it’s not better known.

 

It does have a 5 round magazine, when loading 2 3/4 shells, if you loaded 2.5 inch shells though you would probably get 6, probably have to hand load though to get those.  It may feed mini shells too but I have not attempted it.

 

It does have a nice wide ejection port though so even using 2 3/4 shells dropping an extra shell through the ejection port at the end when the slide is back would be trivial.

 

If it had made it to combat in World War 1 I think it would be a much better known design today and the takedown feature is just handy, now that I understand it I can take it down and reassemble it in just a few seconds, I think it would make a great pack gun, assuming you cut the barrel to 20 inches (which was offered in the military and riot versions) the front would be the same length as the rear and you could pack it in a fairly modest back pack.

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It's simple, the stevens 520 wasn't in the movie... The 97 and 12 were... 

 

Wild Bunch action shooting (WBAS) is loosely based on The Wild Bunch movie, just like CAS is loosely based on the old "spaghetti westerns"

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16 hours ago, 9245 said:

probably have to hand load though to get those.

Nope.  B&P makes commercial 2.5" shells.  I used to keep those on hand for my 97s, then I snipped the mag spring down to let 6 in the mag tube.  Believe there are other manufacturers (think British, like GameBore) that also make 'em.

 

good luck, GJ

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As to the question about the shotguns only being 12 gauge, when I was writing up the initial "official" WBAS rules before the committee was created I had two 16 gauge '97's and wrote them in. When discussing what WBAS was supposed to be I was informed by the Judge, the General, and Hipshot that it was to be a big bore sport. That meant 12 gauge only shotguns, 40 caliber and up rifles and a steel 5" 1911 in 45ACP. We, the current committee, intend to keep alive the vision of our founding leaders and maintain it as a serious shooting sport as they intended. Targets require the use of sights and ammunition power factor will be checked at sanctioned matches and all pistols will be checked for legality for category and operational safeties both grip and slide.

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Happy Jack,

I respect the Judge, General Grant & Hipshot immensely. 

And I respect your desire to keep their Vision alive.

I Love Cowboy Action Shooting!!

Wild Bunch can be Great Fun also..... 

And before the arthritis got so bad in my hands I loved shooting it too....

 

But a “serious shooting sport” I don’t see it... 

You’re just not going to attract a lot of top notch shooters when they have to dress as something like a Doughboy or Mexican Bandit and can’t advertise their Sponsors.

 

IMHO CAS and WB are and should be a Fun and Friendly Amatuer Shooting Competition.... 

CAS already is that.

I think Wild Bunch should realize that also.

 

SASS members are getting older and many have problems shooting full power 45acp 1911’s and shooting complicated scenarios that are more like a geometry quiz.

Lowering the power factor, allowing 9mm/38 1911’s & rifles would be a good start.

Then encourage match directors to quit writing complicated stages & put some fun back into it.

 

Again just my Opinion........

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4 hours ago, Happy Jack, SASS #20451 said:

As to the question about the shotguns only being 12 gauge, when I was writing up the initial "official" WBAS rules before the committee was created I had two 16 gauge '97's and wrote them in. When discussing what WBAS was supposed to be I was informed by the Judge, the General, and Hipshot that it was to be a big bore sport. That meant 12 gauge only shotguns, 40 caliber and up rifles and a steel 5" 1911 in 45ACP. We, the current committee, intend to keep alive the vision of our founding leaders and maintain it as a serious shooting sport as they intended. Targets require the use of sights and ammunition power factor will be checked at sanctioned matches and all pistols will be checked for legality for category and operational safeties both grip and slide.


I wasn’t asking about why it was 12 gauge only (and if you ask me 12, 10, and 8 gauge are the only legitimate shotgun gauges anyway, I never understood why people use 20, 16, and 28, unless it’s a youth shotgun.

 

I was asking why it was restricted to two particular models of shotgun instead of any shotgun from the era.

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7 hours ago, Boomstick Bruce said:

CAS is loosely based on the old "spaghetti westerns"

 

Then why do we have a b-western category and not a spaghetti western category?  :wacko:

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1 minute ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

One could argue that spaghetti westerns were of the B variety.

 

 

But not according to SASS costume rules for b-western category. It would be nice if "John Wayne" dress were allowed. After all I'm seeing state matches with "Steam punk" categories. This seems pretty far from the origins of SASS.

 

Hogleg

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8 hours ago, Silver Sam, SASS #34718L said:

SASS members are getting older and many have problems shooting full power 45acp 1911’s and shooting complicated scenarios that are more like a geometry quiz.

Lowering the power factor, allowing 9mm/38 1911’s & rifles would be a good start.

Then encourage match directors to quit writing complicated stages & put some fun back into it.

 

No offence, but by generally converting it into a "senior sport" you may keep a couple of pards in the game for a some years but you don't attract new (younger) members and WBAS will be doomed. You can always ask a match director on a local level match (in advance) to use small bore guns due to medical issues.

I like Happy Jack's explanation of the initial idea of the game. The Wild Bunch is one of my favorite movies. And while it's just a movie, they're shooting, not just plinking in spitting distance. The required power factor is just normal ammunition, far away from magnum loads. And there's still the modern category where you can shoot two-handed. 

 

Also, just an opinion,

Equanimous Phil 

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On 4/22/2021 at 8:32 AM, Hogleg Hunter said:

 

But not according to SASS costume rules for b-western category. It would be nice if "John Wayne" dress were allowed. After all I'm seeing state matches with "Steam punk" categories. This seems pretty far from the origins of SASS.

 

Hogleg

 

Maybe so...but nor is Steampunk"  an OFFICIAL SASS category.  There has never been any restriction on what is done below a certain level of competition...   That means of course there are clubs out there shooting "Wild Bunch" on CAS stages, targets and distances... which is understandable (only one set up to be done) but a bit sad IMO.    "Wild Bunch is not CAS with a 1911" is after all the mission statement in the rules...     Folks who get used to that and think that is what WB is will get a shock when/if they go to a major match...  (or shoot at my club lol) 

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On 4/20/2021 at 7:11 PM, 9245 said:

Recently I have considered gettin in to wild bunch matches as I already have a 1911 and just recently picked up a period shotgun.  However I was surprised to learn that despite being an actual shotgun designed, built, and used in the “wild bunch” era and being a classic design I cannot use it because it is not an 1897 Winchester.  Why is wild bunch limited to one specific model shotgun?  Surely people realize that other models existed and were very popular in the period.

 

Ironically I got another John Browning design, the Stevens 520, which I believe started production in 1909, my particular example is between 1913 and 1916 and still in perfect shape.

 

Admittedly it was an impulse buy, I used “I can use this in a match” as a justification to myself to buy it, I just saw a cool old very under appreciated antique shotgun for a low price and jumped on it.  But still, I would like to know the reasoning why only 1897 Winchesters are allowed.  It couldn’t be the year as 1911s are certainly 20th century and are a newer design than the Stevens 520 (and yet another John Browning design).  I obviously am partial to the Stevens 520 but this criticism goes to other designs of the period as well.

 

Mechanically the Stevens 520 is very similar to the 1897 in that it is hammer fired, it just has an internal hammer, it’s also very unique looking having a hump back design that looks more like an auto 5 than a pump action shotgun, and the early ones like mine have 2 humps.  The bolt in to a square at the top of the receiver.  It has a 5 round magazine using 2 3/4 shells (though I suspect 6 would fit if using 2.5 inch shells) and no interrupter, the shells are held in the magazine tube by the elevator, this allows it to be unloaded without having to cycle the rounds through the chamber.  It features a unique recoil sensing safety that locks the slide unless recoil is detected, the idea being to prevent out of battery detonations from squibs, without firing (dry firing doesn’t count) you must manually press the slide release every time you cycle the slide.  All models of the Stevens 520 were takedowns.

 

It was very popular and was produced into the 1930s before being replaced by the Stevens 620 (the same model but with a more modern looking non humpback receiver) and was made in that form  until 1955.  Stevens only made them under their own name in to the 1920s, after that it was made by Stevens as a “store brand” shotgun and was commonly found in Sears and Wards.  It also saw service in World War 2 and almost in World War 1.  Yet despite it’s popularity and it being a John Browning design and extremely well built it is mostly unknown today, it’s John Browning’s forgotten design.

 

Other equally interesting shotguns were also used during the period so why limit it to the 1897 Winchester?

 

Also, is it true that the 1911s are limited to 5 rounds?  Why?

 

There are many guns that are "period" for the Cowboy era too...yet are not included in the rules.  DA revolvers spring to mind immediately of course.  The originators of these games we play wrote a set of rules. 

 

If we want to play we abide by the rules. 

 

 (In baseball the original rules allowed the first batter in an inning to decide whether to run the bases clockwise OR counter clockwise (which set the direction for his teams at bat) .  A fielder could put a runner out not just by touching the base when the runer was forced, or tagging him..but also by hitting him with a thrown ball!  I think those would both be awesome rules to have today... but...the baseball authorities clearly decided against them. :D)

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On 4/24/2021 at 8:40 PM, Waxahachie Kid #17017 L said:

Reading a rule book, may, or may not, answer the "why" of a matter. It may only state what is allowed. 

 

And I (and many others I'm sure) are quite glad the whys of the rules are NOT in the rule books.  They are too long as it is to be either committed to memory or quickly accessed.

 

good luck, GJ

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On 4/23/2021 at 6:28 AM, Constable Nelson #11784 said:

 

 

 (In baseball the original rules allowed the first batter in an inning to decide whether to run the bases clockwise OR counter clockwise (which set the direction for his teams at bat) .  A fielder could put a runner out not just by touching the base when the runer was forced, or tagging him..but also by hitting him with a thrown ball!  I think those would both be awesome rules to have today... but...the baseball authorities clearly decided against them. :D)

 

That WOULD put the excitement back into baseball. I'd watch a game from start to finish for that.

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On 4/23/2021 at 5:28 AM, Constable Nelson #11784 said:

 (In baseball the original rules allowed the first batter in an inning to decide whether to run the bases clockwise OR counter clockwise (which set the direction for his teams at bat) .  A fielder could put a runner out not just by touching the base when the runer was forced, or tagging him..but also by hitting him with a thrown ball!  I think those would both be awesome rules to have today... but...the baseball authorities clearly decided against them. :D)

 

Wow that would be awesome running clockwise. I'd rather that be the extra-innings rule than the stupid runner-on-second rule we have now.  Stupid covid.

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On 4/20/2021 at 7:48 AM, J-BAR #18287 said:

Wild Bunch is named after the movie, “The Wild Bunch”.  The opening scene showed bank robbers posing as soldiers using 1911s, ‘97s, and one Model 12.  It’s why most competitors dress in army costumes.  So watch the movie for a better understanding of the rules and restrictions.

 

The Professionals was a better Wild Bunch era movie.

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6 minutes ago, Houston CAS said:

 

The Professionals was a better Wild Bunch era movie.

So you're sayin we should have a Professional catagory? 

 

 

 

 

:ph34r:

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Geez Peez!

 I ain’t reading all that......and, I ain’t looking it up, either.

 

I could be wrong BUT,

I believe Wild Bunch is limited to only weapons that were used in the MOVIE itself.  If the gun wasn’t used in the movie, I don’t believe you’re allowed to use it in SASS Wild Brunch competition.  Right?   Wrong?

 

Cat Brules

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9 hours ago, Houston CAS said:

The Professionals was a better Wild Bunch era movie.

 

That's a rather bold statement! :o Just ordered the Blu-Ray the check that, but it seems to be definitely a movie that belongs in my Western collection, thank you for the tip :)

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3 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

That's a rather bold statement! :o Just ordered the Blu-Ray the check that, but it seems to be definitely a movie that belongs in my Western collection, thank you for the tip :)

Wait a minute! 

You haven't seen "the Professionals"?

You are in for a treat. That's the movie that made me want a 97 ever since I was a kid.

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1 hour ago, Hendo said:

Wait a minute! 

You haven't seen "the Professionals"?

You are in for a treat. That's the movie that made me want a 97 ever since I was a kid.

I really don't know myself how I didn't stumble across this movie so far!! :blush:

 

Well, there are a LOT of classic Westerns that I haven't watched yet, but most are already waiting in my DVD/BR collection. Being in my 40s while there aren't many good Westerns being made today anymore (if any at all :ph34r:) I have to save a couple for the next years!

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On 4/23/2021 at 6:19 AM, Constable Nelson #11784 said:

  "Wild Bunch is not CAS with a 1911" is after all the mission statement in the rules... 

 

Feel free to disagree.

Back before the official WB rules existed, when most places that did it allowed you to use pretty much anything made in 1918 or earlier, auto loading pistol or DA revolver, it was not CAS with a 1911.   

The Official Rules as written, to me, really do feel like it's just SASS with a 1911.

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1 hour ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

Actually, some places who still do Wild Bunch according to their local pre-SASS official rules, now call it "The Professionals."

Not many left though.

 

That I would like to see.

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6 hours ago, Hendo said:

Wait a minute! 

You haven't seen "the Professionals"?

You are in for a treat. That's the movie that made me want a 97 ever since I was a kid.

 

I haven't seen "The Professionals" either.   Maybe I should watch it and then go buy a 97'.

;)

 

..........Widder

 

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13 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

I haven't seen "The Professionals" either.   Maybe I should watch it and then go buy a 97'.

;)

 

..........Widder

 

I'll trade you my Blu-ray copy for a 97.

:P

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You’ll want to buy a Lewis gun after watching it. Our last monthly was a WB [10 rds/stage] and the one before that was a DA/1911 match. Our may match is a BAMM with the option to use a 1911 or 2 DA’s. A local club can do anything they want. All of these matches are created so that the single action shooter can also compete. Imo, WASA/SASS club rules are the way to go if you want shooters. We had 18 [9WB-9cas] at the WB match, about 4 more than usual. We are a small group of good friends so we don’t even pretend to have categories. You know who your competition is. I created a monthly match years ago based on The Professionals, even built a shroud to go around my old Marlin to make it look like a Lewis. A great movie, don’t know if it’s better than The Wild Bunch but it’s certainly as good.  ‘Peace brother.’ I would also throw The Wind and The Lion in there as another great film in almost the same timeframe [1904]. 

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DISCLAIMER: The following is the opinion of Brazos John. I don't intend to try to implement any changes in SASS rules, so please refrain from directing any hostility in my direction.

On 4/20/2021 at 1:00 PM, Griff said:

And therein lies the trouble.  The 1911 was designed with 7 shots in mind.  Artificially trying to make it a 5-shooter is demeaning to the gun. 

I totally agree, and think that applies to the shotguns, too. The '97s and '12s were meant to hold a magazine full of rounds. I've never seen over-the-top single round loading on any western movie or tv show. I think all pump / lever shotguns should be REQUIRED to be stoked. IMHO.

But, I also shoot sharpshooter, because the current target placements are so close that they embarrass me. I started shooting when a Clean Match was an accomplishment. Those days are long gone, and times change, so I just try to keep up and play nicely. 

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On 4/29/2021 at 2:19 AM, Cat Brules said:

 

I could be wrong BUT,

I believe Wild Bunch is limited to only weapons that were used in the MOVIE itself.  If the gun wasn’t used in the movie, I don’t believe you’re allowed to use it in SASS Wild Brunch competition.  Right?   Wrong?

 

 

Seeing as how most of them were shooting a Star Model B in 9mm and not a 1911 in 45acp, and it included many DA revolvers and Lugers, I would be disinclined to say that is a factual statement. Also, in WB you can use a 93/97 and I don't believe those were around when the movie was filmed.

 

I would suggest that a more accurate statement is, if it is allowed in the rules that were made for the game, it is allowed. if not, then it isn't allowed.

 

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