RECOIL 45-70 and others...

[Pat Riot]

I slipped and hit submit before I was ready earlier...duh!
 

I didn’t want to hijack @Charlie Harley, #14153 thread any more for this so here we are...

 

We were discussing the Marlin 1895 and recoil from the 45-70 round. I recall shooting my friend’s 1895 and the recoil from modern hunting loads being pretty brutal. I also recall shooting some of his reloads and some factory loads that emulated the original 45-70 loads and these had a kick, but a tolerable kick. 
 

I have a Henry Single Shot 45-70. It weighs 6.8 pounds according to the specs. That’s a light gun for 45-70.

 

The weight of the Marlin 1895, per this link is 7 pounds 12 ounces. 
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/8/30/marlin-model-1895-the-ultimate-guide-gun/

 

Photo not from article

 

Here is a photo of the Henry Single Shot. 
 

I recall my friend claiming that the stock of the marlin and the angle of it as well as position of the buttons in relation to the bore axis was the reason for the felt recoil of the Marlin. 

As you can see above the differences in the two rifles are slight, but I think the Henry kicks a little less with Cowboy loads than I recall the Marlin kicking even with a 1# difference in weight. 
 

I have decided, after thinking about it, that perhaps I do not wish to have an 1895 after all...

 

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

Here's my favourite .45-70 from my herd.

It's a Pedersoli Sharps with a vernier sight and a Hadley eyepiece.

I found shooting a near max charge of TB under a 350 grain lead bullet was very pleasant to shoot and very accurate.

Varget and some other powders, while doing the job did produce a lot more felt recoil.

Not that it was too hard to handle, due to the weight of my Sharps.

(You do know they sold them by the pound don't you?)

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I have three .45-70's, four if you count the Colt Lightning in .45-85 which uses the same case and a much lighter bullet.

 

First one I got was a 84 Trapdoor rifle.   Nice shooting gun.

Next two guns I got were a 73 Trapdoor carbine and an 86 with a 20" barrel.   The exact same "Trapdoor safe" load that I used the rifle was punishingly painful to shoot because of the recoil in those lighter guns.

 

Switched to Trailboss.   Recoil problem solved, and all three guns shoot well and have good accuracy.   Using a 405 grain bullet.

I've not fired the Lightning yes, but I use a 300 grain bullet in loading for that gun, which much closer to the original 265 grainer it was originally built around. 

Which powder you use will have a large effect on the recoil with this round.   For our game, Trapdoor safe loads are gonna be fine of every application, and in truth, for a lot of hunting apps as well.   But if you do want higher performance in a gun that can handle it, you might have to contend with more recoil.  Experiment with different powders and bullets is about the only suggestion I can make.

[Pat Riot]

One gun that literally rattled my teeth was one of another friend’s Mosin Nagant carbine. I was expecting a kick, but WOW! That was quite an eye opener. 
 

The hardest kicking rifle that I ever fired was a rifle this guy was sighting in at an outdoor range. I was shooting my new Remington 673 and this guy at the bench next to me asked me about it so I offered to let him shoot it. 
It didn’t dawn on me at the time that I had been there about 15 minutes and he had not pulled the trigger one time on the gun he has sitting on sandbags at his bench. 
I let him fire 5 rounds and he thanked me then offered to let me shoot his “Mountain Goat Rifle”. I should have realized from what he called it that it would be a powerful long range gun but I didn’t equate the words “mountain” and “rifle” to also mean “light”. I heard “mountain goat” with the added description “rifle”.

It was a custom job. It fired .300 Winchester Magnums “loaded to the Max”. It weighed just at 7 pounds with the scope. 
I heard all this as he described it but the words didn’t register. 
He loaded 3 rounds into the magazine and said “Here, try this out.”

I say down and I think I heard “Make sure you seat it really good against your shoulder it has a kick.”

That wasn’t a “kick”. It was a KICK!

That thing kicked harder than anything I have ever shot. I freakin’ hurt! My right arm went numb. My head, not my ears, rang. 
I opened the bolt. Caught the lava hot cartridge in the air. The searing pain in my fingers was totally mitigated by the pain in my head and right shoulder. I set the cartridge case down, left the bolt open and thanked him. 
I told him that I now understood why he was just sitting there and not shooting. 
He apologized for not giving me more of a warning and then admitted he wanted to see if someone else thought the thing kicked as much as he thought it did. He then told me the guy that built it even told him he was making a mistake going so light on the gun. He explained he was going to Alaska to hunt Dahl Sheep and was scaling back all the weight he could for the hike. 
I thanked him for my lesson in not paying enough attention to details and for the unforgettable experience and then I packed up all my stuff and went home. 
 

[Pat Riot]

I will have to get me some Trail Boss whenever I can find some to try out. 

[Dantankerous]

My Marlin 1895 GBL 45-70 is pleasant to shoot, even with hotter loads. I am fairly accustomed to 12 Gauge buckshot and slug recoil so this 45-70 recoil ain't a show stopper at all.

 

Now,  for whatever reason I did have a  recoil problem with the Marlin Cowboy 45-70 lever gun. Possibly the stock angle? Possibly that it is light enough it makes a difference? I did not enjoy shooting that Cowboy model but any other Marlin 1895 is just plain fun and enjoyable.

[Eyesa Horg]

Pat---Thanks for the warning.

[Sedalia Dave]

I have a Ruger 77 chambered in 7mm Remington mag. Only rifle I have ever fired that made me flinch. I bought the rifle for sentimental reasons I'll not go into here. 

Took it to the local range with a box of the ammo that I got with the gun. First shot had a real kick but I have shot heavy buckshot loads as a teenager hunting coyotes so I shrugged it off. First 2 rounds could be covered with a quarter. 3rd was a little wide. Shots 4 and 5 were way wide. It was then I noticed that I was flinching. Fired one more and confirmed I was flinching. Put it in the case and switch to my 243. Fired one round and put it away as be then my shoulder was really sore. 

 

Haven't fired the Ruger since that day. Someday I'll put a high quality recoil pad on it and try again.

[Trailrider #896]

Actual recoil is...actual recoil...and depends on the mass of the rifle, the mass of the projectile and the mass of the powder gases generated.  But felt recoil depends on a number of factors.  The shape of the stock, especially the amount of drop from the line of the bore.  The length of pull, including the length of the shooter's arm can be the difference between getting kicked like a mule or something more pleasant.  I have almost always had to add a recoil pad to my rifles. Not because the pad softens the blow, but because I need a 14-1/4" LOP instead of the 13-3/4" most factory stock are made.  In some cases simply adding a piece of walnut between the original stock and the buttplate makes a difference.  The problem with lengthening the stock on lever action rifles, is the increased distance the shooter's arm must reach to activate the action.  Obviously, the bullet weight (mass) and the powder charge will influence the felt recoil.  Especially with smokeless powders, some will have a sharper pressure-time curve that translates to a sharper felt recoil.  Also, individual shooters will tolerate levels of recoil differently.  I just depends on all these factors, and different things will affect what hurts and what doesn't

Stay well and safe, Pards!  

[Sedalia Dave]

45 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

One gun that literally rattled my teeth was one of another friend’s Mosin Nagant carbine. I was expecting a kick, but WOW! That was quite an eye opener. 
 

The hardest kicking rifle that I ever fired was a rifle this guy was sighting in at an outdoor range. I was shooting my new Remington 673 and this guy at the bench next to me asked me about it so I offered to let him shoot it. 
It didn’t dawn on me at the time that I had been there about 15 minutes and he had not pulled the trigger one time on the gun he has sitting on sandbags at his bench. 
I let him fire 5 rounds and he thanked me then offered to let me shoot his “Mountain Goat Rifle”. I should have realized from what he called it that it would be a powerful long range gun but I didn’t equate the words “mountain” and “rifle” to also mean “light”. I heard “mountain goat” with the added description “rifle”.

It was a custom job. It fired .300 Winchester Magnums “loaded to the Max”. It weighed just at 7 pounds with the scope. 
I heard all this as he described it but the words didn’t register. 
He loaded 3 rounds into the magazine and said “Here, try this out.”

I say down and I think I heard “Make sure you seat it really good against your shoulder it has a kick.”

That wasn’t a “kick”. It was a KICK!

That thing kicked harder than anything I have ever shot. I freakin’ hurt! My right arm went numb. My head, not my ears, rang. 
I opened the bolt. Caught the lava hot cartridge in the air. The searing pain in my fingers was totally mitigated by the pain in my head and right shoulder. I set the cartridge case down, left the bolt open and thanked him. 
I told him that I now understood why he was just sitting there and not shooting. 
He apologized for not giving me more of a warning and then admitted he wanted to see if someone else thought the thing kicked as much as he thought it did. He then told me the guy that built it even told him he was making a mistake going so light on the gun. He explained he was going to Alaska to hunt Dahl Sheep and was scaling back all the weight he could for the hike. 
I thanked him for my lesson in not paying enough attention to details and for the unforgettable experience and then I packed up all my stuff and went home. 
 

 

My grandson builds those kinds of rifles for a living. Lives in the Coeur d'Alene Idaho area. Lots of people backpack into the mountains and have super light weight rifles in Ultra-magnum cartridges custom built for the occasion. 

 

7mm RUM, and 300 RUM are really popular chamberings

 

 

 

 

[Pat Riot]

19 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

I have a Ruger 77 chambered in 7mm Remington mag. Only rifle I have ever fired that made me flinch. I bought the rifle for sentimental reasons I'll not go into here. 

Took it to the local range with a box of the ammo that I got with the gun. First shot had a real kick but I have shot heavy buckshot loads as a teenager hunting coyotes so I shrugged it off. First 2 rounds could be covered with a quarter. 3rd was a little wide. Shots 4 and 5 were way wide. It was then I noticed that I was flinching. Fired one more and confirmed I was flinching. Put it in the case and switch to my 243. Fired one round and put it away as be then my shoulder was really sore. 

 

Haven't fired the Ruger since that day. Someday I'll put a high quality recoil pad on it and try again.

I fired a Remington 700 7mm Magnum years ago. It kicked but it was as manageable. The guy that owned it developed a bad flinch and threatened to get rid of it. I asked him what he wanted for it and then he clammed up about it.
Looking back it would have done me no good to own that rifle. I opted for a .270 for deer hunting in California. I never got a deer in 8 seasons of hunting here. Because of the idiocy of tag drawings here I always ended up in the next to the last  worst zone in the state. 

[Chantry]

As others have stated recoil can be subjective.  I find my Guide Gun with heavy bullets at moderate velocities the most I want to fire out of that gun.  I'll take a pass on the ammo that is near .458 Win Mag levels.  Based on the picture it looks more like the Henry has a better recoil pad than the Marlin.

 

I have a Finnish M39 Moisin Nagant, with the light ball surplus the recoil is present, but not very painful unless I was to shoot 100+ rounds in a single day.  The Russian M44 with it's short barrel and using the surplus heavy ball does have a reputation for being a VERY unpleasant gun to shoot.

 

As to the custom mountain gun, that was built for a very specific purpose and I doubt one of the those guns will see 100 rounds shot through it's entire life and I'm probably guessing high.

 

I really like the 45-70 and have three of them, the Guide Gun I mentioned, a Miroku made Browning 1886 falling block and Navy Arms Martini  Henry with an old Unertl 10X scope and a heavy octagon target barrel.  It must weigh 12+ pounds and it is so accurate that it makes me look like a a pretty good rifle shot.

[Michigan Slim]

2 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

I fired a Remington 700 7mm Magnum years ago. It kicked but it was as manageable. The guy that owned it developed a bad flinch and threatened to get rid of it. I asked him what he wanted for it and then he clammed up about it.
Looking back it would have done me no good to own that rifle. I opted for a .270 for deer hunting in California. I never got a deer in 8 seasons of hunting here. Because of the idiocy of tag drawings here I always ended up in the next to the last  worst zone in the state. 

Come out here Pat. Over the counter tags and you can use your .270. You buy your tag and your way out and I'll cover everything else. You WILL get a shot.

[Pat Riot]

46 minutes ago, Michigan Slim said:

Come out here Pat. Over the counter tags and you can use your .270. You buy your tag and your way out and I'll cover everything else. You WILL get a shot.

Thank you. I do appreciate it, but all my efforts for the next couple of years in regards to vacation are going to be for our retirement. 
Gotta work toward finding a new home outside this state. 
Again, Thank you for that very kind offer. 

[Pulp, SASS#28319]

Sound is a part of felt recoil too.  If a .22LR was as loud as a .300WM, folks would be flinching and cussing every time they shot it.

[Chantry]

4 minutes ago, Pulp, SASS#28319 said:

Sound is a part of felt recoil too.  If a .22LR was as loud as a .300WM, folks would be flinching and cussing every time they shot it.

I'm really glad my Blackhawk in .30 Carbine doesn't recoil like it sounds!

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

well I do NOT feel the 45-70 kicks that bad , nor does the M44 M/N even with 203 gn ammo 

 

  maybe the nerves in my shoulders have been beat to an inop status 

 

  CB 

[Pat Riot]

50 minutes ago, Chantry said:

I'm really glad my Blackhawk in .30 Carbine doesn't recoil like it sounds!

I shot a friend’s .30 carbine Blackhawk and the first round went off and I stopped, looked at him and asked if that was normal. He about fell over laughing at the look I had on my face. The recoil was okay but the noise was amazing. 

[Cypress Sun]

1 hour ago, Chantry said:

I'm really glad my Blackhawk in .30 Carbine doesn't recoil like it sounds!

 

I have both the .30 Carbine Blackhawk and the AMT Automag III in .30 carbine. IMO, the recoil of either is less than a .45 ACP but if you want the person that's next to you at the range to relocate.....it's the pistol for it. The Automag is my favorite pistol that I own or have own...never had a problem with it in the least.

4 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

I fired a Remington 700 7mm Magnum years ago. It kicked but it was as manageable. The guy that owned it developed a bad flinch and threatened to get rid of it. I asked him what he wanted for it and then he clammed up about it.
Looking back it would have done me no good to own that rifle. I opted for a .270 for deer hunting in California. I never got a deer in 8 seasons of hunting here. Because of the idiocy of tag drawings here I always ended up in the next to the last  worst zone in the state. 

 

I HAD a Remington 700 in 7mm Mag and sold it due to the recoil, just didn't like getting beat up by it. The recoil from it (IMO) was less than the Marlin 1895 45-70's that I've shot. The last time I shot the Marlin 45-70, the owner of the gun gave me a box of 20 to shoot. I shot 3, jacked the rest out and said "That's enough for me, thanks".

[Henry T Harrison]

The great thing about that Remington 7mm mag is that you can load it down to 7 Mauser and it becomes a true pussycat, light recoil and  deadly accurate. The worst kicking 45/70 I have ever fired was a Ruger#3 with a crescent steel but plate loaded with full house 405 grain loads it will get your attention almost as much as the same load in a Contender. Of course both pale with the felt recoil from an H&R 12 gauge 3 1/2 magnum single shot that sob is just mean 

[Grizzly Adams 3674]

Hardest kicking rifle I ever fired was a friend's Winchester Model 71 chambered in 450 Alaskan.  400gr bullet, loaded just a bit north of 2000FPS.  Hit me so hard, that I thought the dang thang had blown up!  I suspect it would have been of great comfort to a fella eye to eye with a brown bear.....

[Pat Riot]

20 minutes ago, Henry T Harrison said:

The great thing about that Remington 7mm mag is that you can load it down to 7 Mauser and it becomes a true pussycat, light recoil and  deadly accurate. The worst kicking 45/70 I have ever fired was a Ruger#3 with a crescent steel but plate loaded with full house 405 grain loads it will get your attention almost as much as the same load in a Contender. Of course both pale with the felt recoil from an H&R 12 gauge 3 1/2 magnum single shot that sob is just mean 

Oh my gosh...you just made me recall the one and only time I shot a Thompson Contender 45-70. The friend who had the 1895 Marlin bought a 45-70 barrel for his TC. He had .357 and a 30-30 barrel and got the 45-70 “for a song” at a gun show. It was so nice of him to let me shoot it first. 
As soon as I pulled the trigger I knew I made a mistake. It felt like Hank Aaron just hit me in the hand with a ball bat. 
 

The more I think about it the more I understand why I have the joint damage that I do in my right wrist. Sheesh!

 

[bgavin]

My neighbor has an 1895 in 45-70 (and a 460 S&W too...  cuz he's a damn fool... )
I have shot neither.
He says the 460 is painful to shoot and his hand hurts for days after doing so.

However a 400gr Speer JFP calculates to some 45 ft-lbs of recoil in a 7.0 lb 45-70 rifle.
As noted above, that is right up there with 12 gauge slugs and #1 buck.
I have shot both in my SxS coach gun... kicks like a gov't mule.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

The closest I can come to this is an experience was an Uberti made SAA in .44 Magnum.  The first two rounds were some I'd loaded with Trailboss.   Seemed no more stout than a .44 Special.   The next two were some my Dad had done with Red Dot.   Pretty significant recoil, but still manageable.  Last shot was a factory load.  That was a painful wrist snapper, and the pistol was pointed straight up from the recoil.   This was all one handed.

[Sedalia Dave]

The undisputed Queen of heavy recoil.

 

 

 

 

[Michigan Slim]

My dad picked up my .44 mag off the counter at the cabin and touched it off one handed..... Under the porch roof...... With no ear plugs. He never touched it again. He just shook his hand and went and sat down. 

[Chief Rick]

1 hour ago, bgavin said:

My neighbor has an 1895 in 45-70 (and a 460 S&W too...  cuz he's a damn fool... )
I have shot neither.
He says the 460 is painful to shoot and his hand hurts for days after doing so.

However a 400gr Speer JFP calculates to some 45 ft-lbs of recoil in a 7.0 lb 45-70 rifle.
As noted above, that is right up there with 12 gauge slugs and #1 buck.
I have shot both in my SxS coach gun... kicks like a gov't mule.

I sold an 1895 Cowboy several years ago.  I felt it kicked more than a regular 1895.

I don't find the .460 S&W Magnum, with 8 3/8 inch barrel, painful to shoot.  Both my wife and my son have also shot it.

That said, I don't have a need or desire to keep one anymore - not a whole lot of stuff along the MS Gulf Coast that warrants one.

I wouldn't mind having a .460 S&W lever gun, but not at the price of the one manufacturer that makes them.

[Chief Rick]

Double-tap...

[Pat Riot]

33 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

The undisputed Queen of heavy recoil.

“Someone over watered their Mauser tree.”  That’s hilarious. 
 

That flintlock KICKS. She’s a tough young lady. 

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

Do not.....I say again, DO NOT, fire a .505 Gibbs double rifle unless you really enjoy pain.

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

Good morning Pat.

I bought my Henry single shot around the same time you did .

I like it a lot. 

It's a lot lighter then the Pedersoli  Rolling Block I was using. 

But I did also by the Brass Henry 45/70 lever action rifle just because I want one also. 

I have to say I'm 100% happy with both the Henry's I have in 45/70 .

I only shoot them with APP FFF powder. 

I think the recoil is very manageable  on both guns. 

Of course the heavier the gun the less recoil. 

 

 

 

[Pat Riot]

3 hours ago, Rooster Ron Wayne said:

Good morning Pat.

I bought my Henry single shot around the same time you did .

I like it a lot. 

It's a lot lighter then the Pedersoli  Rolling Block I was using. 

But I did also by the Brass Henry 45/70 lever action rifle just because I want one also. 

I have to say I'm 100% happy with both the Henry's I have in 45/70 .

I only shoot them with APP FFF powder. 

I think the recoil is very manageable  on both guns. 

Of course the heavier the gun the less recoil. 

 

 

 

Rooster, it’s good to hear from you. Belly up to the bar. Bottles, please give Rooster what he fancies. It’s on me...just put it on that tab right there...never mind it says OLG on it. That don’t mean nothin’. He’ll just pawn it off on someone else...

 

Rooster, did you get the steel or brass-like receiver on your single shot?

Even though I got the steel model it sure is pretty. 

[Dantankerous]

14 hours ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said:

Do not.....I say again, DO NOT, fire a .505 Gibbs double rifle unless you really enjoy pain.

Or are facing a charging Cape Buffalo and have no other choice?

[Trailrider #896]

The difference in felt recoil in handguns definitely depends on grip design.  At a gunwriter's convention, I was invited to shoot a Freedom Arms .454 Casull, with grips by a noted gripmaker.  These had a knuckle on the back like a DA revolver.  I fired one shot with fullpower loads.  It was painful!  The president of FA, said, "Try one of mine."  He handed me the gun which had the regular SA grips like a Colt's or Ruger.  While stout, and I had to be careful not to have the barrel hit me in the forehead, I was able to fire five rounds with no particular pain.  The gun would roll up in the hand.

[Pat Riot]

5 minutes ago, Trailrider #896 said:

The difference in felt recoil in handguns definitely depends on grip design.  At a gunwriter's convention, I was invited to shoot a Freedom Arms .454 Casull, with grips by a noted gripmaker.  These had a knuckle on the back like a DA revolver.  I fired one shot with fullpower loads.  It was painful!  The president of FA, said, "Try one of mine."  He handed me the gun which had the regular SA grips like a Colt's or Ruger.  While stout, and I had to be careful not to have the barrel hit me in the forehead, I was able to fire five rounds with no particular pain.  The gun would roll up in the hand.

I am glad you brought this up. 
 

Yesterday I decided to shoot a load in my Vaqueros that is very accurate in my S&W model 25. My .45 Ruger Vaqueros are; 1 is original with a 7.5” barrel, the other is a New Vaquero with a 5.5” barrel.

The load is a 205 grain Bear Creek Supply RNFP over 8.7 grains of Universal with a calculated velocity of 1025 FPS in a 7.25” barrel (calc by Hodgdon / Hornady for a 200 grain bullet)

 

I found the recoil from my S&W more pleasant than from either of my Vaqueros. I would have thought the opposite to be true. 
I also found the Vaqueros “pattern” well with this load. They sure didn’t group.