Cartridge Question

[Waxahachie Kid #17017 L]

What is the great advantage, and appeal, of the .45 cowboy special cartridge, over the .45 Schofield...or, for that matter, the .45 auto rim? (Yes, Starline brass carries .45 auto rim, and they are in stock right now.)

 

Ballistics???

Cartridge dimensions?

Recoil?

Bullet diameter?

 

 

 

 

 

[Alpo]

I understanding it's price. With a smaller cartridge case, you can get the same ballistics with less powder. For one cartridge it doesn't matter. But over the course of several thousand {realms} ROUNDS, otto, ROUNDS it could add up to 50 or even 60 cents.

 

that otto jerk can sure screw up a joke.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Expensive Brass ,,,, the difference between .45 ACP,  .45 auto rim  and .45 CS .... 

The case capacity of the .45 ACP , .45 Auto Rim and the .45 Cowboy special is very minor .

And the .45 ACP lacks a rim ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

[Sedalia Dave]

 

Cowboy 45 Special (C45S) is the correct name and it was designed by Adirondack Jack. He also designed the Barnstormer Bullet.

 

C45S was developed to allow reduced charges of smokeless and Black powder in pistols chambered for 45 Colt without the need to use fillers. It has the same case volume as 45 ACP

The Barnstormer bullet was developed  to create a light weight but ballistically stable bullet for reduced recoil in 45 caliber firearms.

 

Pair the two together and you have a 45 Colt round that has  the felt recoil of a 38 special.

 

Ok, here's my little creation... By Adrondike Jack

 

 

45 Auto Rim cannot be shot in a firearm chambered for 45 colt. The rim is thicker and throws off the headspace.
 

Quote

 

The .45 Auto Rim, also known as 11.5x23R, is a rimmed cartridge specifically designed to be fired in revolvers originally chambered for the .45 ACP cartridge.

The Peters Cartridge Company developed the cartridge in 1920 for use in the M1917 revolver, large numbers of which had become available as surplus following the end of World War I.[3]

Two issues related to the use of .45 ACP ammunition in the M1917 revolver led to the development of the .45 Auto Rim. The M1917 had previously been used with half-moon clips that held three rounds of .45 ACP, a rimless cartridge.[4]But if half-moon or moon clips are not used when firing a rimless cartridge in a revolver, the spent cases must be ejected by hand—either by shaking the revolver and its swing-out cylinder or by poking the cases with a rod or field-expedient tool, like a pencil—as the revolver's extractor cannot grab them. The second issue concerned headspace. In revolver cylinders not engineered to allow .45 ACP to headspace properly, as in early production Colt M1917s, the cartridges could slip forward, stopping them from firing. Adding a rim to the .45 ACP cartridge solved both these issues.[5]

 

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

 

 

 

[Pat Riot]

Now I just shoot .45 Colt with 205 grain bullets and 6.4 grains of Universal. The bullet is going about 750 FPS. I do get some case blow-by but the recoil is light. 
 

I used to shoot hotter loads in CAS but decided to tone it down some due arthritis in my right wrist. 
 

I haven’t considered the Cowboy 45 Special. Mostly because I just don’t want to add another cartridge to have to reload. 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

.45 Auto Rim will not fit in a cylinder chambered for .45 Colt.  The rim is to thick.  The .45 CS has the same size rim as the .45 Colt so it is like putting a .38 in a .357 chamber.  Advantage, less BP poweder if shooting BP and more efficient for CAS smokelss loads.  I.e., puss loads.  Most powders take up very little space in the .45 Colt so the .45 CS eliminates some of that excess space.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Just plain "Mo Betta" fer CAS.

 

If you didn't really already know that, you just haven't been paying attention of the past few years.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

I have shot Hubby's .45 Colts that were chambered in auto rim. I felt no difference from my .38s

[Seamus McGillicuddy]

What SASS legal guns take .45 Autorim?

 

Seamus

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

17 minutes ago, Seamus McGillicuddy said:

What SASS legal guns take .45 Autorim?

 

Seamus

Hubby used a Colt SAA.

[Seamus McGillicuddy]

Hi Allie,

Was that the original chambering?

 

Seamus

[Singin' Sue 71615]

It is my understanding that most (if not all ) '73s don't like Schofield...too short?

[Alpo]

Might be length. Might be rim diameter. 45 Smith & Wesson rim is a bit bigger than 45 Colt rim.

 

But since both of my elevator rifles are/were 44 WCF, this is just my speculation.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

 Hi Sue,

 

There are two problems with 45 Schofield in '73s.  First up is the rim diameter which the Schofield is larger and "adjustment" may be necessary to the extractor.  Next up is cartridge length.  A '73 will run just fine so long as the bullet used is no shorter than a 200Gr RNFP crimped in the crimp groove.

 

Seamus:  All that is necessary is to machine the breach of the cylinder for the thicker Auto Rim Rim.  Echo Echo

 

Stay Safe Out There

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

 Hi Sue,

 

There are two problems with 45 Schofield in '73s.  First up is the rim diameter which the Schofield is larger and "adjustment" may be necessary to the extractor.  Next up is cartridge length.  A '73 will run just fine so long as the bullet used is no shorter than a 200Gr RNFP crimped in the crimp groove.

 

Seamus:  All that is necessary is to machine the breach of the cylinder for the thicker Auto Rim Rim.  Echo Echo

 

Stay Safe Out There

I forgot to ask Hubby; but, he does have a metal lathe.

[watab kid]

the 45AR cartridge was used [without moon clips] in the early colt M1917 revolver [that did not have the shoulder to headspace the case] it was developed from the colt M1909 revolver that used the 45 colt cartridge ,  the M1917 also used the 45acp [with the moon clips] , so i disagree that any of these will not fit , 

im not familiar enough with the 45 Scofield or the 45CS to fully understand those ,  

[Warden Callaway]

I,  and others have used the C45S in unmodified Rooger NMV chambered in 45 Auto. 

 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

9 hours ago, watab kid said:

the 45AR cartridge was used [without moon clips] in the early colt M1917 revolver [that did not have the shoulder to headspace the case] it was developed from the colt M1909 revolver that used the 45 colt cartridge ,  the M1917 also used the 45acp [with the moon clips] , so i disagree that any of these will not fit , 

im not familiar enough with the 45 Scofield or the 45CS to fully understand those ,  

Then you would be wrong.  The 1917 was designed to supplement the 1911.  It was designed to shoot .45 ACP with clips.  Period.  The .45 AR was not even in existence when the 1917 was developed.

 

The .45 Auto Rim (AR) may be the first cartridge developed a half-decade after the firearm for which it was intended. Peters Cartridge Company found a viable alternative to using metal clips to fire .45 Auto ammo in Colt and S&W Model 1917 military revolvers. These big sixguns came to the surplus market after World War I, but the clip system that the military used proved less practical for civilians.

 

 

The "half-moon" clips, each holding three .45 Auto cartridges for easy extraction from a DA revolver, presented little issue to the soldier--the arsenals packaged ammo already "clipped," and saving clips for reuse was not an issue. However, clips presented a challenge when the surplus revolvers reached the civilian market. Clips were easily bent and could tie up the cylinder, and aftermarket clips varied hugely in quality and dimensions.

 

 

 

The Peters solution was to make a .45 Auto case with a rim. The rim is almost 50 percent thicker than the rims of the .44 Special and .45 Colt. This odd rim fills the large rear cylinder gap that is cut to accommodate the .45 Auto's rim plus a 0.050-inch clip. Peters also opted for a lead 230-grain RN bullet, which was deemed more appropriate to revolver shooting.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

41 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Then you would be wrong.  The 1917 was designed to supplement the 1911.  It was designed to shoot .45 ACP with clips.  Period.  The .45 AR was not even in existence when the 1917 was developed.

 

The .45 Auto Rim (AR) may be the first cartridge developed a half-decade after the firearm for which it was intended. Peters Cartridge Company found a viable alternative to using metal clips to fire .45 Auto ammo in Colt and S&W Model 1917 military revolvers. These big sixguns came to the surplus market after World War I, but the clip system that the military used proved less practical for civilians.

 

 

The "half-moon" clips, each holding three .45 Auto cartridges for easy extraction from a DA revolver, presented little issue to the soldier--the arsenals packaged ammo already "clipped," and saving clips for reuse was not an issue. However, clips presented a challenge when the surplus revolvers reached the civilian market. Clips were easily bent and could tie up the cylinder, and aftermarket clips varied hugely in quality and dimensions.

 

 

 

The Peters solution was to make a .45 Auto case with a rim. The rim is almost 50 percent thicker than the rims of the .44 Special and .45 Colt. This odd rim fills the large rear cylinder gap that is cut to accommodate the .45 Auto's rim plus a 0.050-inch clip. Peters also opted for a lead 230-grain RN bullet, which was deemed more appropriate to revolver shooting.

Thank you for that bit of history. I'd often wondered why the auto rim was developed.

 

I learn something new every day.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Dominion in Canada was marketing .45 Auto Rim by 1923  ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

[watab kid]

12 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Then you would be wrong.  The 1917 was designed to supplement the 1911.  It was designed to shoot .45 ACP with clips.  Period.  The .45 AR was not even in existence when the 1917 was developed.

 

The .45 Auto Rim (AR) may be the first cartridge developed a half-decade after the firearm for which it was intended. Peters Cartridge Company found a viable alternative to using metal clips to fire .45 Auto ammo in Colt and S&W Model 1917 military revolvers. These big sixguns came to the surplus market after World War I, but the clip system that the military used proved less practical for civilians.

 

 

The "half-moon" clips, each holding three .45 Auto cartridges for easy extraction from a DA revolver, presented little issue to the soldier--the arsenals packaged ammo already "clipped," and saving clips for reuse was not an issue. However, clips presented a challenge when the surplus revolvers reached the civilian market. Clips were easily bent and could tie up the cylinder, and aftermarket clips varied hugely in quality and dimensions.

 

 

 

The Peters solution was to make a .45 Auto case with a rim. The rim is almost 50 percent thicker than the rims of the .44 Special and .45 Colt. This odd rim fills the large rear cylinder gap that is cut to accommodate the .45 Auto's rim plus a 0.050-inch clip. Peters also opted for a lead 230-grain RN bullet, which was deemed more appropriate to revolver shooting.

i think thats what i said without the great history lesson - i was not implying that it was the original cartridge - it was the alternative , but am i wrong that all three are essentially able to be loaded in the same chamber ? that was all i was trying to note , 

 

the M1917 revolver was actually developed from the M1909 base , and yes it was intended for the 45acp - the 45AR is the alternative as you note 

[Alpo]

Kid, while you may not have intended for it to sound like that, that's the way I read it. That the Colt 1917 and the 45 Auto rim came about at the same time - one made for the other.

 

31 minutes ago, watab kid said:

but am i wrong that all three are essentially able to be loaded in the same chamber ?

If you mean the ACP, the AR, and the Colt - then yes you are wrong. If the gun is chambered for 45 ACP it will usually also accept 45 AR but it will not work with 45 Colt. And if the gun is chambered for 45 Colt it will not work with 45 ACP or 45 AR.

[watab kid]

ah - just reread and i see where it comes off that way , i was not certain of the exact era of AR release so was trying to avoid the error , but i outsmarted myself it seems , ill stand corrected 

[DeaconKC]

Peters introduced the Auto rim in 1920. HKS makes speedloaders for the round.

[Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062]

   I have a stupid question along this line ......

 

 Is the C45S anywhere near compatible with the 455WeblyMk2 ?

 

I have fired the 455WeblyMk2 in my 45 Vaquero, it fit and had no ill effects.

 

Wondering if the C45S would be a candidate for a 455 Webly Mk2 chambered firearm.

 

Thank You

 

wbj

[DeaconKC]

Lemme check...

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

23 minutes ago, Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062 said:

   I have a stupid question along this line ......

 

 Is the C45S anywhere near compatible with the 455WeblyMk2 ?

 

I have fired the 455WeblyMk2 in my 45 Vaquero, it fit and had no ill effects.

 

Wondering if the C45S would be a candidate for a 455 Webly Mk2 chambered firearm.

 

Thank You

 

wbj

No.  The .445 rim thickness is around .045.  The .45CS (and Colt) are around .055.  So the rim would be too thick.  The thinner rimmed Webley would chamber (although it would have excess headspace) in . 45 CS or Colt but not visa versa.

[Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062]

Thank You. ...... I do appreciate your help.

 

 

(DAMN!!)

 

wbj

[DeaconKC]

Okay, you might need to check your particular gun. 45Special brass did fit in my .455 S&W Triple Lock.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

1 hour ago, DeaconKC said:

Okay, you might need to check your particular gun. 45Special brass did fit in my .455 S&W Triple Lock.

Did you load all six chambers and close the cylinder?  If it closed did it rotate when you pulled the trigger?  The frame is thicker around the firing pin hole.  That is where the fit needs to be checked.

[DeaconKC]

2 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Did you load all six chambers and close the cylinder?  If it closed did it rotate when you pulled the trigger?  The frame is thicker around the firing pin hole.  That is where the fit needs to be checked.

Yes, it did, surprised me when it did fit.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Thanks for the information.  I too am surprised.  But it lets you use more readily available brass.

[Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062]

8 hours ago, DeaconKC said:

Okay, you might need to check your particular gun. 45Special brass did fit in my .455 S&W Triple Lock.

   

I have a S&W Double Lock with Commonwealth proof markings model of 1915.   

 

   .... and I don't have any C45S cases nor loads  

[Sedalia Dave]

5 hours ago, Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062 said:

   

I have a S&W Double Lock with Commonwealth proof markings model of 1915.   

 

   .... and I don't have any C45S cases nor loads  

 

Take 6 45 colt cases and cut them down to the same length as a 45 ACP. This will at least let you test if C45S will fit.  If they do then all you need to do is figure out how to get some C45S brass into OZ