2 New Categories??

[Tequila Shooter]

I’m posting this with a lot of trepidation because I know there’s too many categories already, but here me out on this one.  As we all know it’s a tough time to get into the sport, not a lot of reloading supplies, guns or completed ammo..  CAS is inherently expensive to start out, between guns, leather, cart, etc., etc.  So here is what I was thinking, two categories, let’s just say (hypothetically) they’re called Original Cowboy (P) and Original Cowboy (R).  The shooter's would run the same stage with the same instructions as everyone else, but for the P category with one SASS legal pistol and a SASS legal shotgun, for the R category SASS legal rifle and SASS legal shotgun.  No Men's/Ladies/Senior categories, just the two, and of course they couldn't be scored for overall time, just within their category.  

 

If we take a stage scenario that calls for say "double tap 5 pistol targets from either end" then the P category would double tap first 2 targets and single tap the third, then on to the shotgun however it's written.  For the R category they would shoot 10 rifle rounds on the designated rifle targets whichever way the stage calls for, then move to the shotgun.

 

I really don't think that SASS as a whole would go for it, but at the local level it may be something to consider.  I do think though that if SASS did initiate this or something similar say for the first year of membership it would help new shooters get their feet wet.

 

I'm now looking forward to getting flame sprayed for bringing this up

[July Smith]

The real issue is finding cowboys/girls interested in shooting.  I do not think having incomplete sets of guns is the issue.  If I knew of a new shooter that needed to borrow a rifle or a single pistol I'd gladly loan them one of mine.  I know I am not alone or unique in this short of offer.

 

 

 

 

[Hogleg Hunter]

I think that just letting a person shoot what he has with no specific requirements would be best. "Cowboy" guns would be the only requirement. One pistol and rifle - ok.  Two pistols only - ok, etc. The important part would be to familiarize the person with our rules, how to spot, and to enjoy the comraderie of fellow cowboys. Remember, people come to shoot and stay for the friendship.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

Shooters without all of the guns can shoot whatever legal guns they have now and just take the misses. 

[Diamond Jake]

Last weekend a few of us met at the local range to do some repair work, then shot a few stages rather informally.  I shot the first stage per instructions, then the others I shot with only my two pistols, as I wanted to try some new loads and a brand new revolver.   It was a lot of fun, with a lot of jokes from the pards, such as "Stage instructions say to start with your hands on your shotgun, so you get an SD."

 

If I was new and didn't have all the firearms, and no one lent me any, I'd still have a lot of fun shooting what I brought and would definitely come back. 

[Baltimore Ed]

Is the logic here to reduce the ammo needed to shoot a monthly match [due to the shortages] or to help new shooters without a complete set of shooting irons? I travel not quite 4.5 hrs to and from [total time] to go to my clubs shoot.  I want to shoot as much as I can so to eliminate 60 rds is not going to work for me. I have cut back on practice time to conserve components. I would gladly loan a newbe my .22 vaquero, Marlin 39 .22 or a 12 ga if needed. I don’t think I would give him/her a match’s worth of reloaded cf ammo though and I don’t think I’d want someone elses reloads in my guns. Nothing personal. 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

No need to add categories. Clubs can do whatever they want at monthly shoots. We let shooters shoot 22 pistols and rifles. No category, they just want to shoot.

[Three Foot Johnson]

I once loaned a sixgun to a newbie who only had one... and the next match too... and the next one... and the next one... and the next one... and the next one... after a dozen or more matches, and several guns offered to him to purchase, including mine, I realized he had no intention of buying another one. I got it back and sold it to someone else.

[Tequila Shooter]

3 hours ago, Baltimore Ed said:

Is the logic here to reduce the ammo needed to shoot a monthly match [due to the shortages] or to help new shooters without a complete set of shooting irons? I travel not quite 4.5 hrs to and from [total time] to go to my clubs shoot.  I want to shoot as much as I can so to eliminate 60 rds is not going to work for me. I have cut back on practice time to conserve components. I would gladly loan a newbe my .22 vaquero, Marlin 39 .22 or a 12 ga if needed. I don’t think I would give him/her a match’s worth of reloaded cf ammo though and I don’t think I’d want someone elses reloads in my guns. Nothing personal. 

 

Ed I agree if you’ve got the ammo shoot a full match.  My logic is twofold, give folks wanting to try the sport a cheaper way.  If a local club wants to allow those categories to save ammo then that would be there decision.  

 

I’ve offered my guns to new shooters and most if not all don’t want to borrow them for whatever reason.  But if they new they could try it with a smaller investment, and not have to take a bucket load of misses I think that would be more appealing to them.  Like I said earlier if a new shooter was to start out that way they’d have a year to get their gear in order.

[Griff]

A solution to a non-existent problem.  Clubs are free to do what they want at the monthly level... Rule changes are not required, nor does SASS need to recognize the local club's categories... or their efforts to introduce new shooters to the sport via rule changes.  If SASS were to adopt these "convenience" categories, there will be shooters that will think they can still compete in them at the State, National and International level.  And no matter how often, nor how strenuously they are disavowed of that notion, there will be the person or persons that show up at, say, EOT, and complain that they're being discriminated against. 

 

Suck it up buttercup, life and competition ain't fair...  equal application of the rules yes... but fair, that's for pie in the sky thinkers... those that think they can wish themselves into a championship!

 

This game has evolved from its beginnings.   When I started, I had to buy a sixgun, a pistol caliber lever action rifle, a side-by-side or exposed hammer pump shotgun... (I didn't even know the 1887 lever-action shotgun exited).  Later I had to buy a 2nd pistol, in order to compete.  Gosh darn it... to compete in the side matches I had to buy, beg or borrow the various arms needed for those matches.  Just how many of you were allowed to compete without the requisite number of guns of the proper type?  

 

Why on earth would one think that 35 years later those just now opening their eyes and seeing cowboy action shooting shouldn't have to pony up with the necessary tools to compete?  Sure, allow the newcomer to dip their toes in the water... that's what will keep the sport alive.  But, to expect that all of a sudden the rules should be amended to recognize that some folks don't want to, can't or simply, willfully and with malicious intent refuse to acquire the rudimentary implements of the game, is simply burying one's head in the sand.  Reduce the requirements... and all of a sudden those become the minimum requirements.  

 

EOT and other big matches (very few of those by the way), had to shoot stages with just two guns back in the day... Fast times with two guns were in the high 20 to low 30 seconds, because we had a number of things to do on the clock that didn't involve shooting.  Folks wanted MORE shooting, not less.  How are you going to price that match for the guy or gal that is only going to shoot two firearms, take misses for the arm they don't have... and forego the opportunity for a buckle, plaque or other recognition of their shooting prowess?  If the match fee is $90, including a meal... but someone is only doing 2/3 the shooting, isn't it "fair" for them to have a reduced shooting fee also?  I think that if I were entering under that premise, I'd want a reduced fee...

 

I was told once... this ain't for the unwilling.  If you're unwilling to pay your own freight, you don't belong.  ANY leisure time activity is expensive to start off.  I don't fish, but if I wanted to start entering in bass tournaments, don't you think I'd have quite the investment before I could even show up?  I don't golf, I think that I'd have one hell of an investment by the time I could enter the Masters.  Have you ever priced Polo ponies?  You'd probably really start to cry if you knew what my 5 year hiatus from cowboy action into mounted shooting cost!  

 

The way you folks are talking, you probably think they should allow you to compete in mounted shooting without a horse!  Makes just about as much sense.

[Tequila Shooter]

@Griff let’s agree to disagree.  I’ve read and reread your comments and while I don’t agree with everything you’ve said I’m not going to pick it apart and get into a heated discussion over something that’ll probably never happen anyway.  Let me just say this, in order for our sport to grow there will have to be some changes.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

There HAVE been changes and it has been said, LOCAL clubs can do whatever they want to accommodate shooters at THEIR matches, no need to change overall SASS rules and categories.

[Sarge]

For this season, our club made some changes to allow the following:  1.  .22 caliber in any or all guns.  This is a separate category.  2.  Rifle, Shotgun and only one pistol.  We consider this to be an exhibition category and not eligible for overall match winner.  

 

At our most recent meetings, we have had 10 new shooters, that will be with us this year.  At our practice last weekend,  8 of those 10 new shooters showed up. One of them will shoot in the .22 category.  One of them will shoot with only one pistol.  All were excited after the practice and looking forward to the first regular club match. 

[El CupAJoe]

9 hours ago, Griff said:

The way you folks are talking, you probably think they should allow you to compete in mounted shooting without a horse!  Makes just about as much sense.

 

There are other mounted events that you can do without a horse

 

 

Maybe there should be a costume category (Call it Dragoon) that requires a Hobby Horse  (straddle and hold the horse reins in one hand, fire pistols duelist style, dismount and fire shotgun, horse is dead, use it's body to support rifle to engage rifle targets)

 

Or Coconuts...

 

Joking aside,  @Tequila Shooter's idea isn't without merit.  I'm a big fan of something on the SASSWire page that outlines some kind of relaxed newbie category, For those of you that haven't already, you can see my idea on the subject here, Unprofessional Category - SASS Wire - SASS Wire Forum (sassnet.com)

I think having a category that doesn't require a full kit, and is only eligible for clean shoot and best dressed prizes, while offering main match access to more guns and doesn't require extra work by stage developers to incorporate into a normal match would be attractive to new shooters and a fun category for old timers as well.

 

 

[Totes Magoats]

5 pages...+/- 3  

 

Totes

[Griff]

Like most all grand ideas... making changes to the SASS rules, when NOT needed for folks to do just as you say, "begin to play", or dip their toes in so to speak, are already in place and functioning fine.  The fact is, that changing the SASS rules, is not just for the local match... adding in these so-called "beginner categories" to the list of "official" categories, will only encourage folks to NOT compete at the "full kit" level.  Why should they?  They're not going to eligible for shooting awards, They're probably not going to see any benefit to joining SASS, except to further expand on diluting rules they don't care for... further diluting the game to all participants.  Egalitarian bullspit.   Just like the change from rank points to total time... the fact that the majority simply can't see the merit of keeping something, doesn't make the loss of it that much greater for its dilution to the game.  THAT one simple change, changed the nature of the game... From a contest of a series of distinct and yet equal stages, to a lap race, fastest at all costs.  You wouldn't believe how much the small changes over the past 30 years have cost the game some of its most hardened proponents.  Changing the hammer spur rule... you want a Bisley hammer, use a Bisley grip... the short-stroked rifle... now short-stroked pistols... all slight cuts to the spirit and original intent of the game.  Show of hands, how many folks in now in their 50's, 60's, early 70's that used to play, are no longer playing with us... not due to illness or death, but... simply because they don't like the game the way it's played today.  Do you truly believe that changing from 2 handguns to 1, or four gun stages to two gun stages will bring any of them back to the game?  I don't believe so.  We saw our LARGEST growth when we went from 3 guns to FOUR!   I can tell you, of the 6 people who founded our club, and life members of said club over it's first 5 years of existence, only one still plays.  At one time we had nearly 50 life members in our little club, the second active cowboy action club and the first SASS affiliated club in Texas.  And of all those who shot with us over the course of the 1st 5 years, only ONE is still active today... and of the ones I've been able to contact, the reason...?  The game is simply too much about how fast you can manipulate the guns... speed at all costs.  

 

SASS has already encountered it largest growth.  The Founders once told me, maybe 30 years ago that the game would die when they were gone.  I misunderstood... I thought they meant themselves.  Not so.  When those of their generation (baby boomers), who grew up with, and loving westerns, are gone, so will the participants to play this game.

 

Changing it to keep it straggling along, limping on it's past glory and merits, is only killing it with the death of a thousand cuts.  It is not keeping it growing.   Changing the game to something it isn't, isn't keeping it alive.  

 

I applaud your enthusiasm and thinking outside the box.  But... I regret to inform you that for the past 30 years I've thought outside the box and tried a number of methods to increase participation.  I shot in various non-cowboy venues with my cowboy guns, set up booths at gun shows, made VHS tapes (before the youTube, etc.), and shared same with prospective participants... tried to get rules changes made... (I never understood the rank point argument until I started conducting my own matches)...  I can't tell you the number of pleasant surprises I've had over having folks come out and participate... but, ultimately, other pastimes, larger enjoyments and pursuits overtake them and they no longer come out.  Even when specifically invited to come out on our club's anniversary... they're too busy, don't want to shoot against today's competitors.  Again, I call bullspit... they just don't want to have their kiesters handed to them!

 

Seriously, to gain old hands back we have to eliminate short strokes, return hammers to their previous profiles... doing so at the cost of today's competitors... and when I fought AGAINST the 2 handgun requirement the argument was, "...if they really want to play, they'll find a way."  How many folks are still playing this game after 10-15 years?  No matter when they started, the average seems to be that they slow down after 10 or so years, and are non-existent by 15.  20 years of active participation is well above the average.

 

I'll let you in on a secret... the reason most clubs fail is due to lack of leadership... The folks that play for several years, grow into club leadership, and are left there... buried, month after month, year after year, because most participants don't want the added burden of leading a club.  You want to keep SASS alive?  Get involved in running your local club... bring your fresh ideas to stage writing, target setups, making and improving props, helping those out that are currently running things, doing the HARD work that is club management!  Sitting here on the Wire complaining that participation is down, growth is stagnated, or worse, is not productive.  Take over running a club, relieve those currently doing the WORK, before they get burned out, so they can go back to ENJOYING participating again.  Maybe, just maybe, they won't immediately quit and leave you in the lurch!

 

Your "Friendly Curmudgeon"s rant is "OFF".

 

[El CupAJoe]

I read somewhere on the forum that we have 8 million new gun owners in america!  Woot Woot!  I bet some of them might mosey our way if they can figure out how to square it.  the sooner they are in, the sooner they can decide if they want to stay or move along.  

[Rex M Rugers #6621]

Wow , Thanks , Griff. Now I am in the "well above average" group. First time I've been above average at anything. 

 Still shooting as much as I can , heading into the 26th year. 

All kidding aside , it has been a great ride , hope it lasts another 25.

Rex 

 

[Tequila Shooter]

I understand that the game has changed since it’s inception, but change is inevitable.  Just as Griff pointed out, the change to the scoring method, or the change from dealing with props on the clock to just shooting.  Change for the sake of change is not good, but that doesn’t mean that there can’t be change.  If SASS were to allow a one year trial with less equipment what harm would it do? As long as new folks realize that after a year they get in or get out, and that they can’t compete out of their category or for total time.  If they want to attend a state match or bigger why not?  Big matches are a good place to find equipment at good prices.  Let them go, pay their entrance fee like everyone else, enjoy the game in their category, and experience all that SASS has to offer.  Who does it hurt?  Not any of the other competitors, the matches may get a few more people to show up and the new shooters would most likely enjoy it like the rest of us.  The sponsoring club would get extra money, the vendors would make extra sales, and who knows if someone was on the fence about continuing it might just encourage them to participate fully.

 

Local clubs have always had the right to allow new shooters to participate any way they saw fit, that right doesn’t go away.  This would set a guideline just like all the other categories and allow new shooters to attend matches at other clubs knowing that requirements would be the same. 

[Baltimore Ed]

I’ve also played this game for 25 years. We are definitely in decline. In the small group that I shoot with I can think of at least 6 shooters that have stopped shooting for health reasons and another half dozen that have passed. We did add a couple of new faces recently but those guys are almost as old as I am. As to those 8 million new gun owners unless we add a teflon gun/ AR category I don’t think they are sass people. 

[Marshal Chance Morgun]

It's great to want the thing we love to grow and be the thing everyone loves and wants to do, but let's face it, we can't change it to be everything to everyone. There is no "V8 moment" where people are going to hit their head and say ,"WOW, now I can do cowboy action shooting.!" People either want to do it, or they don't.

[Marshal Chance Morgun]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            NO................. NEW......................CATEGORIES!!!!!!

[Baltimore Ed]

Ah dad, just one more, pleeeease? I won’t ask for any more. Promise. Though.......a dedicated military category would be nice, get some of those GAF guys to join up.

[Rattlesnake Slim]

4 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

  Who does it hurt?  

 

You may not be aware, but every club that holds a State level or above match has to sign a contract with SASS. That contract requires you to offer EVERY SASS recognized category. If you make this a SASS recognized category, it MUST be offered in every one of these championships. That means these shooters MUST be allowed to compete for a championship, the club MUST buy trophies, buckles, plaques, etc. for every one of your made-up categories. That's who it hurts, clubs that are trying to produce championship quality matches. 

 

You may say, well they can write that out of the contract. But then that opens a whole other can of worms, why go through all that effort for something that every club can do every month if they want?

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

On 3/30/2021 at 6:38 PM, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

Shooters without all of the guns can shoot whatever legal guns they have now and just take the misses. 

This^ Shooters can shoot what ever floats their boat , or borrow what's needed. If there is two or more like shooters they can compare scores at match end just like everyone else. This has only been suggested 743 times in the last ten years We've had shooters borrow rifle or shotgun (and leather) for a year or more till they could get what they needed. This sport cost alot less than boats, horses, dogs, four wheelers.....etc....etc. A few years ago a shooter from another discipline said he'd like to play but it cost too much up front. I asked how many ARs he had, he had three, 1-308 and 2-223. He only shot one of the 223s. Bottom line there's ways to shoot if you want to shoot, just go to a local match and ask. Good Luck