Dana Rasmussen 1 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Hello, Is there a defined minimum amount of 2fg black powder for shotgun shells that will meet the "smoke factor" requirement? If not, how low have you all gone and still maintain "smoke factor", knockdown power & low recoil? Thank you, Deputy Dan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 1,257 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) SHB pg 9 Quote Blackpowder category contestants are expected to understand they will contend with smoke obscured targets. To ensure this, all shotgun, revolver, and rifle powder charges must produce smoke at least equivalent to a baseline load of 15 grains by volume (1 cc) of blackpowder (see Blackpowder – Testing section for additional requirements). SHB pg 25-26 Quote Testing of blackpowder rounds for the production of adequate smoke will also be conducted in a similar matter as described above. Rounds should be obtained from the shooter’s loaded firearms while at the loading table. The rounds should be fired in comparison to test rounds made using the following load data: - Standard .38 Special case. - 1 cc GOEX 2F powder. - Federal Standard primer. - 145 grain bullet lubed with SPG. - Powder lightly compressed with a medium roll crimp. Failure of the shooter’s rounds to produce the same level of smoke as the standard rounds will result in a penalty for not adhering to the category requirements. The first offence will be assessed as a procedural penalty, the second offence in the same match a Stage DQ, and the third offence in the same match a Match DQ. Edited February 27 by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
T-Square 145 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Just fill them up ! More BANG equals more FUN ! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 1,257 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Personally, I like a load using the gray claybuster wad, 7/8 oz of shot, and enough powder to get the height right. Ends up being between 33 ad 38 grains of powder. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 1,433 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Seriously, if you are worried about how LOW you can go to make the smoke standard in a shotgun shell you are in the wrong category. 8 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dana Rasmussen 1 Posted February 27 Author Share Posted February 27 Branchwater Jack, I read the section of the handbook you are referring too. It only mentions rifle & pistol ammunition. I loaded a few using a MEC bushing #32. The recoil was a bit much. Larsen E. Pettifoger, I understand your viewpoint, but due to shoulder injuries, I need to go as low as legally possible for a lower recoil. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 1,433 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) There are certain laws of physics that cannot be avoided. The shot has to clear the barrel. There is going to be some recoil. Perhaps you need to shoot from the hip like several shooters do because of shoulder injuries. Super puss loads ain't the answer. 30 to 35 grains with 7/8 oz of shot is about as low as you can realistically go. 1cc of powder wouldn't even cover the bottom of a 12 gauge shell. Edited February 27 by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Springfield Slim SASS #24733 680 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Put a pad on the buttstock and put a dead mule inside the buttstock. And get a longer barrelled shotgun, coach guns kick the worst. More weight, less felt recoil. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 1,433 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 ^^^^^^^ Basic physics. If your gun weighs six pounds and you increase the weight to eight pounds the felt recoil goes down about 25%. BP also has less felt recoil as it shoves rather than snaps like smokeless. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 1,257 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 48 minutes ago, Dana Rasmussen said: Branchwater Jack, I read the section of the handbook you are referring too. It only mentions rifle & pistol ammunition. SHB pg 9 (emphasis added) Quote Blackpowder category contestants are expected to understand they will contend with smoke obscured targets. To ensure this, all shotgun, revolver, and rifle powder charges must produce smoke at least equivalent to a baseline load of 15 grains by volume (1 cc) of blackpowder (see Blackpowder – Testing section for additional requirements). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 1,257 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 54 minutes ago, Dana Rasmussen said: I loaded a few using a MEC bushing #32. The recoil was a bit much. My math may be a bit off here, but a #32 is about 2.6 cc, or about 38 grains of ffg....give or take. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sedalia Dave 13,651 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 1 hour ago, Dana Rasmussen said: Branchwater Jack, I read the section of the handbook you are referring too. It only mentions rifle & pistol ammunition. I loaded a few using a MEC bushing #32. The recoil was a bit much. Larsen E. Pettifoger, I understand your viewpoint, but due to shoulder injuries, I need to go as low as legally possible for a lower recoil. How much shot are you putting in that shell? What powder are you using? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dana Rasmussen 1 Posted February 27 Author Share Posted February 27 Branchwater Jack, Thank you for your patience. For some reason I kept jumping to page 25 & ignoring page 9. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 1,433 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 29 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said: How much shot are you putting in that shell? What powder are you using? It might help if we knew what kind of gun and what gauge you are shooting. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 1,257 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 17 minutes ago, Dana Rasmussen said: Thank you for your patience. For some reason I kept jumping to page 25 & ignoring page 9. It may not make a whole lot of sense at first, but the shotgun rounds will be compared to the test rounds - which are 38's. Now, whether those test rounds are shot out of a rifle or pistol when they are compared against your shotgun rounds is not entirely defined. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Abilene, SASS # 27489 1,357 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Dana, the folks who shoot APP say it smokes more than BP. Possibly you could use a bit less of that. Otherwise, everything said above. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dana Rasmussen 1 Posted February 27 Author Share Posted February 27 Thank you all for your input. My 1st question has been answered. I have 7/8 oz, 1 oz & 1 1/8 oz charge bars to work with. I have #6, #7 1/2,#8 & #9 shot. Hulls are AA, Fiocchi & Herters. My current powder is Kik, 2fg. I am considering switching to 777 when I run out of the Kik. My primary BP shotgun is my double trigger 12 gauge Stoeger. Now that I can reload all 3 ammo types I may want to try Wild Bunch using BP. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 1,433 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Be aware that 777 has more power than real BP and APP. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Abilene, SASS # 27489 1,357 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 777 will recoil more so you'll need to use less. Seems that lowering the shot amount makes the biggest result for recoil. There is another topic currently going on BP shells where Sedalia Dave descdribes lining your shot bushing with card stock to reduce the shot charge. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 1,257 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 In this game, you could easily drop down to 3/4 oz shot. That will help cut down on the recoil as well. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Bullweed 480 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 I load 42 gr of FFg of any bp or sub under 1 ounce in 12 gauge and 35 grains of FFg over 3/4 ounce in 20 gauge. Shoots well enough for me. Leaves no knockdowns standing. Good sealing around the shell hull. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sedalia Dave 13,651 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) ClayBuster CB0175-12 wad 3/4 oz of shot Remington primer. Remington primers will give the lightest recoil. Federal s the most. #32 MEC bushing 3F APP or Shooters World Black if using a BP sub. Real BP any 2F powder. Triple 7 is 10 to 15% hotter than real BP or APP. You can obtain a 3/4 oz load from you MEC one of 2 ways. Drill and tap a hole into the end of the charge bar all the way into the shot cavity. Insert a long set screw into the chamber till you get the desired shot weight / stack height. You don't want the set screw sticking out past the end of the bar. Buy another charge bar. Edited February 27 by Sedalia Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sedalia Dave 13,651 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 You can fine tune the powder charge using a strip cut from a notebook cover. Cut it the same width as the bushing. The carefully coil it up inside the bushing so that it fits tight against the sides of the bushing. You can keep it in place with a little contact cement. Will not work for shot I've tried it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Abilene, SASS # 27489 1,357 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said: You can fine tune the powder charge using a strip cut from a notebook cover. Cut it the same width as the bushing. The carefully coil it up inside the bushing so that it fits tight against the sides of the bushing. You can keep it in place with a little contact cement. Will not work for shot I've tried it. Thanks for correcting me on that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 885 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 2 hours ago, Dana Rasmussen said: Thank you all for your input. My 1st question has been answered. I have 7/8 oz, 1 oz & 1 1/8 oz charge bars to work with. I have #6, #7 1/2,#8 & #9 shot. Hulls are AA, Fiocchi & Herters. My current powder is Kik, 2fg. I am considering switching to 777 when I run out of the Kik. My primary BP shotgun is my double trigger 12 gauge Stoeger. Now that I can reload all 3 ammo types I may want to try Wild Bunch using BP. I'd reload the AAs and toss the Fiocchi and Herter hulls. AAs have thick plastic walls and do not buckle when reloading. I've had poor luck reloading Fiocchi hulls. I shot some Herter shells today. They too seem flimsy. If you find green Gun Club hulls they reload well too. If you shoot BP in a pump shotgun I'd use 777. The residue is less corrosive than real BP fouling. Personally I don't use BP in a pump shotgun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sedalia Dave 13,651 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) One other thing. Light BP loads will not generate enough pressure to prevent blow by. Buy a good chamber brush and a swab to clean the fouling out of the chambers between stages. PAM / Murphy's mix will work well for this. You can tell you are getting blowby because the outside of fired hulls will be dirty and covered in fouling. Edited February 28 by Sedalia Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 1,477 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 I use about 38 grains of Goex 3F in 28 ga for the little Kids .... 4.3 CC Goex 3F ,,, 65 grains in 12 ga. Jabez Cowboy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life 793 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 I love the blinding smoke and gouts of flame from my 10 gauge loads. I USE 3-1/2" brass shells, Walter's wads, 1-1/2g Shuetzen powder and 7-1/2 lead shot. I just fill to the tippy top. I'm small but the recoil is nothing when it's contrasted with the fun of the blasts. Remember, warthog Holy Black shooters have the best memories. Just go for it. It's incredible fun. Otherwise, go smokeless. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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