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Since just about every match director would rather see shooters slinging lead with .22’s than staying home I understand and agree with the relaxation of the rules. 
What concerns me is once that door is open, will match directors close it when primers and ammo are readily available but for sure more maybe much more expensive. You are always going to hear “I’m saving my ammo for (fill in the match)  

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These folks are NOT using semi auto pistols and 10/22 rifles.   How EXACTLY is someone using a 22 caliber firearm that, for all intents and purposes, looks the same as the guns you're using

Like what?  Exactly?   I do so tire of "this will cause the sky to fall" doom and gloom anytime a change is proposed.   Especially when there is no reason expressed of "WHY" a chan

FYI: WR 2017 TG Meeting minutes

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I suspect you are right! Need to make sure that this is a club match only thing. 
 

 

C3EEFBC2-57E6-448F-B0DC-0E46252F92D0.jpeg

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And remind ROs to keep the timer close to gun especially if muzzles are going through a window or door.   Some of the standard velocity .22 ammo is really quiet.  Avoid the Aguila sub-sonic ammo - several types of those are so slow they will stick/stack up in barrels!

 

good luck, GJ

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Clubs also need to put a deadline on when it will be allowed. You can always extend it if needed.

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We decided to only allow it at monthlies, with an end point of end of 2021 season. where we will re-evaluate, but not allowed at annual

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These folks are NOT using semi auto pistols and 10/22 rifles.

 

How EXACTLY is someone using a 22 caliber firearm that, for all intents and purposes, looks the same as the guns you're using harming YOUR experience?

 

The recoil?

The sound?

The brass?

 

And if it is so harmful; and since 22 has been legal in our game for decades - have you previously been refusing to shoot on posses with Buckaroos and Juniors?

 

Black powder folks talk down about smokeless.

Warthogs talk down about mousefarts.

45 talk down about 38's and then dash caliber shooters talk down  about them.

Factory stocks talk down about short strokes.

 

So now we can all join together to talk smack about 22 shooters and the day we can get rid of them?

 

Keeping folks in our game is challenging enough without adding another layer of elitism and superiority.

 

You want to throw on some cowboy duds, join me on the range, set up some steel, say some silly starting lines and shoot cowboy style firearms?

 

You're welcome to come and play with me - anytime - anywhere.

I'm glad to have you.

And I certainly won't kick you to the curb because of your guns caliber.

Ever.

 

 

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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Well said Creeker, I agree 100%

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It's not that difficult. Three local clubs that I know of have allowed .22's since the last primer shortage at their monthly shoots. They even have a class set up for them. It's not only the primer shortage that has kept .22's going locally. Some pards have severe arthritis and cannot handle the recoil of standard cowboy handguns. It lets then still come and compete. I have RO'd many .22 shooters. The rifle is the firearm you need to be concerned with. You need to keep the timer low, under the shooters arm, and as far forward as far as you can safely go, and don't use the rifle as the last firearm on the stage. Pistols are not a problem. You just need to make sure you record the first and last shot on the stage, and count their rounds as they shoot just in case a shot isn't picked up. 

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What someone else uses to play has no bearing on my enjoyment. I can't imagine the .22 being any more quiet than some of the center-fire loads some use. When the "ping" of the bullet hitting is louder than the report, that's quiet.

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I’ll clarify, after this shortage. I’m envisioning shooters that shoot (and have always shot) centerfire ammunition just deciding, you know what?  I’m switching to .22’s the match director is happy to see me and take my shooters fee. I’m done reloading/buying factory ammo. Do we just disregard the rules (permanent relaxation) or change them? 
I have no problem shooting with young ones using .22’s never have, and I have always supported special accommodations being made for a shooter that can’t handle center fire ammunition. 

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I've got no problem with .22s.  When/if reloading components start to become more readily available, I would not oppose a "plinker class" being added as a permanent addition.  Age, physical ailments, gun and reloading equipment costs and availability, or recoil sensitivity can deter people from joining or continuing in our sport.

 

I'm not aware how things are in other areas of the country, but locally are numbers are dwindling.  Infirmity and death (not to mention the current plague) have hurt our numbers.  Anything that would help us add new friends to the sport would be welcome IMHO. 

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I would be ecstatic if rimfire was allowed. Besides being a rimfire guy, already and owning all the colt pistols and rifles and equipment needed,,,my wife would join if she could shoot rimfire. She will not shoot centerfire at all. 

 

A lot of people do not like big bore guns. Your “low recoil cowboy loads” argument will not sway them.

 

That old “grow the sport” theory applies here.

Edited by Marshall Dillon
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31 minutes ago, Attica Jack #23953 said:

Could cause some major problems...........

Like what?  Exactly?

 

I do so tire of "this will cause the sky to fall" doom and gloom anytime a change is proposed.

 

Especially when there is no reason expressed of "WHY" a change is so bad, so dangerous, so harmful.

 

We have access to 22 caliber firearms that look, operate and perform exactly the same as our center fire models.

So it can't be an appearance issue.

 

Not ending with the rifle has been a "suggestion" for years and years - and shotgun and 22 revolver record just fine for the (competent) TO.

So it can't be a timer issue.

 

Most ranges don't even bother picking up 22 brass - just kick it to the side or rake it up eventually.

So it can't be a brass picking issue.

 

And again - 22 caliber has been allowed in our game for decades for younger shooters without causing devastating results.

So it really can't be a caliber issue.

 

So what EXACTLY is the problem?

Lowered ammo costs?

Lowered firearm costs?

 

We wail to the heavens and gnash our teeth about shooter decline and then when a reasonable option is put forward that allows shooters to continue shooting; offers options for lower cost entry into the game and changes the game for no one that chooses not to use 22's - we immediately poke holes in it.

 

If I recall my history correctly; the 1860 rifle was 44 caliber RIMFIRE.

 

If our cowboy history began with a rimfire caliber - I doubt a rimfire caliber will end it.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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55 minutes ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

I’ll clarify, after this shortage. I’m envisioning shooters that shoot (and have always shot) centerfire ammunition just deciding, you know what?  I’m switching to .22’s the match director is happy to see me and take my shooters fee. I’m done reloading/buying factory ammo. Do we just disregard the rules (permanent relaxation) or change them? 

I don't think that's going to be a problem. Most of us shoot what we do because we like the round. I don't shoot .45 or 44-40 cause it's the cheapest or easiest to shoot. Of course I might have to shoot lighter rounds someday - I ain't getting younger. Those of us that shoot black powder certainly don't do it because it's easy. Maybe there are some of the .38 shooters that would scale down to .22 - I can't speak for them. Having said that I don't think .22 (other than buckeroo or juniors) should be eligible for top gun.

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23 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Like what?  Exactly?

 

I do so tire of "this will cause the sky to fall" doom and gloom anytime a change is proposed.

 

Especially when there is no reason expressed of "WHY" a change is so bad, so dangerous, so harmful.

 

We have access to 22 caliber firearms that look, operate and perform exactly the same as our center fire models.

So it can't be an appearance issue.

 

Not ending with the rifle has been a "suggestion" for years and years - and shotgun and 22 revolver record just fine for the (competent) TO.

So it can't be a timer issue.

 

Most ranges don't even bother picking up 22 brass - just kick it to the side or rake it up eventually.

So it can't be a brass picking issue.

 

And again - 22 caliber has been allowed in our game for decades for younger shooters without causing devastating results.

So it really can't be a caliber issue.

 

So what EXACTLY is the problem?

Lowered ammo costs?

Lowered firearm costs?

 

We wail to the heavens and gnash our teeth about shooter decline and then when a reasonable option is put forward that allows shooters to continue shooting; offers options for lower cost entry into the game and changes the game for no one that chooses not to use 22's - we immediately poke holes in it.

 

If I recall my history correctly; the 1860 rifle was 44 caliber RIMFIRE.

 

If our cowboy history began with a rimfire caliber - I doubt a rimfire caliber will end it.

So do we change the rules, or kick the can down the road? 

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1 hour ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

I’ll clarify, after this shortage. I’m envisioning shooters that shoot (and have always shot) centerfire ammunition just deciding, you know what?  I’m switching to .22’s the match director is happy to see me and take my shooters fee. I’m done reloading/buying factory ammo. Do we just disregard the rules (permanent relaxation) or change them? 
I have no problem shooting with young ones using .22’s never have, and I have always supported special accommodations being made for a shooter that can’t handle center fire ammunition. 

John at Firelands and Sandusky they'll list the scores of .22 shooters separate from the main shooters. I don't know how long this will last but on the bright side it could attract more shooters to our sport and eventually they may shoot centerfire calibers when the supply, if ever, becomes normal again. I see it at as a good thing.

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1 minute ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

John at Firelands and Sandusky they'll list the scores of .22 shooters separate from the main shooters. I don't know how long this will last but on the bright side it could attract more shooters to our sport and eventually they may shoot centerfire calibers when the supply, if ever, becomes normal again. I see it at as a good thing.

I hope that it does keep pards shooting, and I anticipate new .22 rules. 

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9 minutes ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

So do we change the rules, or kick the can down the road? 

We change the rules.

The document widely considered to be the finest in human history has been admended 27 times.

 

If the writing of our founding fathers can be adjusted because of the passage of time and changing opinions - then the rules of a silly little shooting game are certainly not sacrosanct.

 

Yes, rule changes should not be taken lightly; they require discussion and thorough examination. 

We will need to figure scoring and categories; awards and placement.  But at the end of the day, an option that offers more good than bad should have an opportunity.

 

And just like our Constitution; if we get it wrong - we can re-examine, adjust or even repeal.

 

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@Creeker, SASS #43022 I am afraid you misunderstood my post yesterday. I was on;y trying to say that due to the current ammo shortage a specific return date will save clubs a LOT of headaches by saying, "Okay, we are gonna do this until..." because otherwise they will get complaints. I have no problem with new shooters, those on a really tight budget or are very recoil sensitive being able to use .22s.

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24 minutes ago, DeaconKC said:

@Creeker, SASS #43022 I am afraid you misunderstood my post yesterday. I was on;y trying to say that due to the current ammo shortage a specific return date will save clubs a LOT of headaches by saying, "Okay, we are gonna do this until..." because otherwise they will get complaints. I have no problem with new shooters, those on a really tight budget or are very recoil sensitive being able to use .22s.

How in the world would the clubs know when this shortage will last?

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3 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

How in the world would the clubs know when this shortage will last?

That's why they should be able to extend as needed. Different areas will see different times. Let's face it, we are all in a time that no one foresaw, when the most radical ideas and fears of 3 years ago are reality today. I am in pretty good shape on CF ammo and components, but have thousands of rounds of 22. All I need to do is pick up some Wranglers or Heritages to be good to go there.

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I'd allow folks to shoot 22's regardless. Hopefully it'll get them into the game and keep them in the game.  Personally, I've never seen 22 single actions and lever guns shoot faster than centerfire guns. They don't appear to be an advantage. The 22 lever guns seem to jam more often. No, I don't want to see them at annual events in the hands of adults.

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14 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

22's can be a real problem to score. 

Plan on painting the targets more often.

OLG 

Our monthly Wild Bunch matches have been allowing 22s in the last few months. As long as none of the targets are "dead" steel, them 22s still ring 'em loud and clear.

 

DB:FlagAm:

Edited by Dakota Brown
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At Wartrace we have decided to have a .22 class. Not category. It will be scored separately and not eligible for top honors, no Cadillac. In addition it will only be for monthly and mid-month matches, not at the state level.  We would have started this past Saturday but we had a weather cancellation. I am going to the range tomorrow to try out a new pair of Wranglers and a couple of rifles which may work ok. It is my understanding we will lessen the number of shotgun targets to save ammo, also. I think Creeker is being very reasonable in his statements. Maybe I will get to shoot with him sometime. 

 

Imis

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Monthly matches are the very foundation of everything SASS. It's where new or modified categories come from, most of the the WTC's, new scenarios, and most important new shooters show up.

The monthly matches are exactly where we change our approach to keep shooters, shooting. And maybe bring in some new shooters.

We see the monthlies and "SASS Rules"  for what guns you can shoot more of a "guideline". We shoot big bore single shot and lever, pocket pistols, 8 gauge SXS (loaded down). We allow WB shooters to be in with our cowperson shooters.

 

There's a ton of whining on here about too many rules and WTC"S. And the first thing someone proposes in applying deadlines and limitations. DOn't worry about it. If SASS decides to add a 22 category officially then the monthlies are the testing grounds for that.

 

We've shot 2 monthlies with 22's. All the safety rules still apply, rifle must not be last. And we had a stage where there was a rifle reload for a bonus. What we learned is its not exactly safe or fast trying to pull a mag tube to load one round. We have decided rifle reloads for 22's can be loaded at the loading table.

 

What we've also learned is when we have a monthly with "different" guns more shooters show up. Our annual has a Tom Horn category. It doesn't exist in SASS. Big bore single and lever for 12 stages. That category makes up 40% of our shooters!

 

Bee different and be safe and shoot what you have.

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I can see people getting into this game with .22's, then, IF things return to some semblance of normalcy 2-4 years down the road, being told they can't use them anymore and getting bent out of shape because they suddenly need to spend $2000 for two centerfire sixguns and a rifle to keep going when "Everybody's been fine with us using these for the past 4 years". Unavoidable. Oh well.

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13 minutes ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

I can see people getting into this game with .22's, then, IF things return to some semblance of normalcy 2-4 years down the road, being told they can't use them anymore and getting bent out of shape because they suddenly need to spend $2000 for two centerfire sixguns and a rifle to keep going when "Everybody's been fine with us using these for the past 4 years". Unavoidable. Oh well.

If you can see more people getting into this game because of the use of .22's, then you are seeing one way to increase membership.  That sounds very desireable considering the alternative in that NOT happening.

 

SC

 

 

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2 minutes ago, ShadowCatcher said:

If you can see more people getting into this game because of the use of .22's, then you are seeing one way to increase membership.  That sounds very desireable considering the alternative in that NOT happening.

 

SC

 

 

Sure, if they stick with it and don't go back to playing Bingo at the Legion Hall on Saturdays because they can't use their .22's anymore.

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Has a single new shooter been drawn to SASS now that adults can use 22s?  The only people I know who are going to use 22s were already SASS shooters and most have thousands of dollars in tuned center fire guns.  I'd expect most shooters will gladly switch back to center fire when able.  I personally will continue to shoot center fire black powder until no longer able.

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