Buckshot Bob Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickel City Dude Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 He didn't discuss the possible problem with using a SRP in a tubular magazine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Spade Mikey Wilson Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 Very Interesting. Pretty much verified what I found in my testing. Thanks for posting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twelve mile REB Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 6 minutes ago, Nickel City Dude said: He didn't discuss the possible problem with using a SRP in a tubular magazine. That's because there isn't a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 52 minutes ago, Nickel City Dude said: He didn't discuss the possible problem with using a SRP in a tubular magazine. If you don't use pointed bullets and seat the primers correctly. There ain't no problem! OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickel City Dude Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 4 hours ago, twelve mile REB said: That's because there isn't a problem. 3 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: If you don't use pointed bullets and seat the primers correctly. There ain't no problem! OLG And that is what he didn't say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kloehr Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 3 hours ago, Nickel City Dude said: He didn't discuss the possible problem with using a SRP in a tubular magazine. His (video producer's) context seemed to be finding substitutes for SPP in pistols, specifically semi-auto pistols, and more specifically his testing was 9mm. His conclusion in this limited context is SMP and SRP are good substitutes for SPP in standard pressure 9mm reloads fired from reasonably close-to-stock (no lightened striker or hammer springs) semi-automatic pistols. That said, OLG's comment makes sense for rifle caliber long guns. Looking at the data, I did see that as the tests progressed from SPP to SMP to SRP, the duration of the pressure pulse shortened (indicating hotter/faster ignition of the powder charge) and the pressures by eyeball without running any math seemed "tighter" as the substitutions progressed in the indicated order even if not higher by any significant amount. To me, this suggests ignition was more consistent and complete and faster with the substitutions, it suggests the substitute primers do throw more "hot" throughout the powder charge. The presenter found this did not translate into significant increases in pressure with 9mm standard pressure loads in a SAAMI test rig. And, in true CYA fashion, he also seemed to suggest doing your own testing... At least with a chronometer to check velocity. My additional takeaway from the video is to do testing in a firearm capable of handling +P loads when building what one expects to be standard pressure loads. Particularly if stepping outside of the limited test he did. Different calibers, different bullet weights, and different barrel lengths may all respond differently to the substitutions. A quick read of my loading books (some weeks ago) did show potential for wide performance variations based on primer choice. As an engineer, I'm not going to read more into the presenter's results than what he found; a chronometer is on my list of tools to still acquire. As an engineer, I can take velocity as a proxy for pressure as long as I stay away from the max limits of my firearms. And in this sport, that is what most of us seem to do, target best performance towards minimum power factor. I did find some match-grade Federal SMP some months ago, and picked it up on spec for the future. Looks like I might be able to use it subject to appropriate testing against SPP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickel City Dude Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 5 minutes ago, John Kloehr said: His (video producer's) context seemed to be finding substitutes for SPP in pistols, specifically semi-auto pistols, and more specifically his testing was 9mm. His conclusion in this limited context is SMP and SRP are good substitutes for SPP in standard pressure 9mm reloads fired from reasonably close-to-stock (no lightened striker or hammer springs) semi-automatic pistols. That said, OLG's comment makes sense for rifle caliber long guns. Looking at the data, I did see that as the tests progressed from SPP to SMP to SRP, the duration of the pressure pulse shortened (indicating hotter/faster ignition of the powder charge) and the pressures by eyeball without running any math seemed "tighter" as the substitutions progressed in the indicated order even if not higher by any significant amount. To me, this suggests ignition was more consistent and complete and faster with the substitutions, it suggests the substitute primers do throw more "hot" throughout the powder charge. The presenter found this did not translate into significant increases in pressure with 9mm standard pressure loads in a SAAMI test rig. And, in true CYA fashion, he also seemed to suggest doing your own testing... At least with a chronometer to check velocity. My additional takeaway from the video is to do testing in a firearm capable of handling +P loads when building what one expects to be standard pressure loads. Particularly if stepping outside of the limited test he did. Different calibers, different bullet weights, and different barrel lengths may all respond differently to the substitutions. A quick read of my loading books (some weeks ago) did show potential for wide performance variations based on primer choice. As an engineer, I'm not going to read more into the presenter's results than what he found; a chronometer is on my list of tools to still acquire. As an engineer, I can take velocity as a proxy for pressure as long as I stay away from the max limits of my firearms. And in this sport, that is what most of us seem to do, target best performance towards minimum power factor. I did find some match-grade Federal SMP some months ago, and picked it up on spec for the future. Looks like I might be able to use it subject to appropriate testing against SPP. You are right, he did show only 9mm loads. But since this is a SASS wire thread I think we should consider the use of these primers in our long guns and use caution when we substitute SRP in our loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bob Posted February 8, 2021 Author Share Posted February 8, 2021 2 minutes ago, Nickel City Dude said: You are right, he did show only 9mm loads. But since this is a SASS wire thread I think we should consider the use of these primers in our long guns and use caution when we substitute SRP in our loads. A srp has the thickest cup of any of the primers . If the bullet you are using or mishap that occurs will set it off , it will it will set off a pistol primer . Especially the federals all the CAS shooters love so much . I would think the srp would be the safest primer in a tubular magazine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickel City Dude Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 4 minutes ago, Buckshot Bob said: A srp has the thickest cup of any of the primers . If the bullet you are using or mishap that occurs will set it off , it will it will set off a pistol primer . Especially the federals all the CAS shooters love so much . I would think the srp would be the safest primer in a tubular magazine. I agree that they are a thicker walled primer but I just wanted to point out that is has been agreed by most that shoot and reload that the SPP was the best choice for use in a tubular magazine because they seat deeper in the pocket then SRP. I used LRP in my 1860 Henry for a long time until someone I felt was more knowledgeable than me filled me in on the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 28 minutes ago, Buckshot Bob said: A srp has the thickest cup of any of the primers . If the bullet you are using or mishap that occurs will set it off , it will it will set off a pistol primer . Especially the federals all the CAS shooters love so much . I would think the srp would be the safest primer in a tubular magazine. SP-mag and SR are the same. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bob Posted February 8, 2021 Author Share Posted February 8, 2021 27 minutes ago, Nickel City Dude said: I agree that they are a thicker walled primer but I just wanted to point out that is has been agreed by most that shoot and reload that the SPP was the best choice for use in a tubular magazine because they seat deeper in the pocket then SRP. I used LRP in my 1860 Henry for a long time until someone I felt was more knowledgeable than me filled me in on the difference. Large rifle and pistol primers are different dimensions. Small rifle and pistol are the same . And as OLG stated the mag pistol are also thick . So all things being equal the rifle primer will be the hardest to set off . I have also seen some cci’s that are supposedly harder than the standard rifle which are intended for semi /full auto guns . Not sure if it’s the thickness or temper of the cup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickel City Dude Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 Of course this is all academic because all primers are almost impossible to find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Bob #61228 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 I don't think over pressure is even a consideration in my SASS loads. As long as it feeds and goes off when I tell it to, I'm good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickel City Dude Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Buckshot Bob said: Large rifle and pistol primers are different dimensions. Small rifle and pistol are the same . And as OLG stated the mag pistol are also thick . So all things being equal the rifle primer will be the hardest to set off . I have also seen some cci’s that are supposedly harder than the standard rifle which are intended for semi /full auto guns . Not sure if it’s the thickness or temper of the cup Good to know. I was always under the impression that both small pistol and small rifle primers had different dimensions just like large pistol and large rifle primers have different dimensions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilboy620 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 I wasn't a member and I don't belong to SASS I happened across a SASS wire forum. They were talking about making Percussion caps for black powder firearms out of things around the house because of the commercial shortage of primers. I found a place to buy toy cap gun caps. tintoyarcade.com I have used the cupped plastic toy caps as replacements for Remington #11'S before, they also have rolled caps that I have rebuilt small pistol primers with, that worked. If you get this message please pass it on . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilboy620 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 I was surprised that the above post I made is on the forum. I have been trying for several hours to let your forum know things that work when you can't get commercial primers due to shortages. These are only my experiments that worked for me. Things I've found that other people have tried. You are at your risk in trying them. Cowboys with guns are like farmers, inventers, researchers, and everyday skilled workers on finding other ways to do things. I like guns and gunsmithing. and other ways to get problems solved and keep researching for improvements. In the 70's or early 80's I read an article in the Dixie Gun catalog. Two boys, maybe with some kind of supervision. did some experimenting with reloading of 38 special ammo with black powder. First deprimed the brass with a metal punch and a block of wood with a hole big enough for the primer to fall through when they punched out the spent primer. They installed a new primer with a wood dowel. They filled the case full of BP. had access to a .358 round lead ball cast in a Lee mold. They pressed the ball 2/3's way into probably unresized case it fit tight enough it wouldn't fall out, they lubed and sealed it in with something like Alox. Somebody must have taught them somehing about reloading BP . Compressing the BP and no air gap between it and the projectile. They shot it off single shot so it wouldn't affect other cartridges in a cylinder or magazine. Reloaded for pennies I have a single shot rolling block, so I decided to try their idea. I went a step further somewhere I had come across the idea of rebuilding a used primer with toy cap gun caps. I took the anvil of the primer with a sharp needle, and punched the bottom with a fitted punch and a flat steel block underneath to remove the firing pin dent. This is probably a one time rebuild because of worm hardening the metal of the primer cup . I punched out a cap with a small paper punch centered on the cap. I the tucked the cap in the cup with a used match stick with the thin red side toward the open side of the cup. I next installed the primer anvil with the point toward the red side of the cap , the three legs to the open side of the cup. A flat block of steel set the three legs level with the rim of the cup. I know now that the three legs are just proud of the rim on new primers and when you use a reloading press the three legs bottom out in the primer pocket before the primer is totally pressed in, probably a safety measure so the anvil goes straight into the primer cup and can't go in at an angle and cause premature ignition. I used the boys procedure from then on. I ran three cases empty of powder and test fired them to make sure they worked. I made 3 loaded shells and fired themfor a positive function test, I loaded 10 more and shot the a target 3 grouped at about 2 1/2" at 25 yards. I loaded another 50 and started plinking and shooting ground rodents. Out of about 100 rounds 3 failed to fire That was 30 years ago. I've had plenty of commercial primers till now . Maybe I'll have to do this again. A Friend In Passing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 9 hours ago, Nickel City Dude said: Good to know. I was always under the impression that both small pistol and small rifle primers had different dimensions just like large pistol and large rifle primers have different dimensions. The only difference between LR and LP primer, is the LR primer is taller. SP and SR are dimensionally identical. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Bob #61228 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 I have an 8 lb. powder jug full of spent SPP primers, if anybody wants to reload them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkey Flats Jack Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said: I have an 8 lb. powder jug full of spent SPP primers, if anybody wants to reload them. I havent thrown a spent primer away in over a year just in case the need to recharge them arises. lol. I have no plans on actually doing it. Yet.... I have enough new ones on hand to shoot without restrictions for the rest of this year and hopefully things will turn around by the time I start getting low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Riot Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 After reading through this thread I decided to do a little more searching on this subject. I had done this in the past and usually only found statements on forums and never from primer manufacturers. Then I came across this statement on a link to a forum: According to Speer/CCI Technical Services - Both the CCI 550 Small Pistol Magnum and CCI 400 Small Rifle primers are identical in size. Both primers use the same cup metal and share the same cup thickness. Both primers use the same primer compound formula and same amount of primer compound. They can be used interchangeably. Then I did a search on DDG using this exact statement (the entire statement) and found lots of forum posts parroting this same thing word for word, but not one thing officially from Speer / CCI. I believe that what I have found in various articles and posts is that in regards to Small Magnum Pistol primers and Small Rifle Primers is they are the same in every regard...until you post something along the lines of “Can I use Small Magnum Pistol Primers in 5.56 / .223 cartridges?” Then info gets squirrelly again because no one wants to be the guy that told a guy to use them and then see a posting that says he “got hot gasses in the face because the primer ruptured.” I have loaded small magnum pistol primers in place of small pistol primers but backed my powder charge off a tenth of a grain and the rounds were perceived to be similar to those loaded with small pistol primers. I don’t have a chronograph so I don’t know for sure if the results were identical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bob Posted February 14, 2021 Author Share Posted February 14, 2021 Another experiment, this guy is showing they work but are not the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bob Posted February 17, 2021 Author Share Posted February 17, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 Call CCI/Speer, they are a munitions manufacturer and have a full on lab. They don't use consumer grade devices for a one off example. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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