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Grow the game: Reduce barriers to entry


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Case in point, the individual who snatches up all the deal in the classifieds struck again this afternoon and grabbed another pair of reasonably priced SASS vaqueros.  They will soon be listed on gunbroker with a 40-50% mark up.   I have three cowboys that I am trying to keep interested and we are shuffling guns and leather during the matches.   They would all three like to find a reasonably priced set of guns but the mentioned individual buys every one that is listed.  Go back through the listings and just look at how many he buys and this doesn't even take into account the ones bought in PM or that he undercuts an OP on a WTB post.  Yeah, I am the guy who he poached three sets off my WTB listing.  It is getting ridiculous and I feel like the admins need to do something about this.  

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9 hours ago, Jack Spade said:

Case in point, the individual who snatches up all the deal in the classifieds struck again this afternoon and grabbed another pair of reasonably priced SASS vaqueros.  They will soon be listed on gunbroker with a 40-50% mark up.   I have three cowboys that I am trying to keep interested and we are shuffling guns and leather during the matches.   They would all three like to find a reasonably priced set of guns but the mentioned individual buys every one that is listed.  Go back through the listings and just look at how many he buys and this doesn't even take into account the ones bought in PM or that he undercuts an OP on a WTB post.  Yeah, I am the guy who he poached three sets off my WTB listing.  It is getting ridiculous and I feel like the admins need to do something about this.  

I'm going to quote one of Allie Mo's posts from when she was the moderator...

 

Howdy Jack Spade

 

"You make some interesting and valid points.

 

All I can say, as a Moderator, is that unless there is a specific rule against certain behavior, language... or something is so egregious that it is reported or a moderator notices it, or it is listed as a transgression in the Guidelines, we who monitor these Forums have a difficult time reprimanding someone.

 

I think we could benefit from having something like this defined in the guidelines. Please let the SASS Office or member of the WB, (now the Advisory Board), know your thoughts. The Moderators are unpaid volunteers who try to keep the Forums a pleasant place to post according to the Guidelines. We don't make the forum rules...

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo"

 

Repeatedly pointing out someone for doing something that is perfectly acceptable within the established guidelines does no one any good.  And is itself a violation of SASS Wire guidelines.  "comments or bashing/slandering of businesses, organizations, individuals or corporations will not be tolerated."   If you wish SASS Wire Guidelines amended, please contact those that Allie mentioned.

 

Eli

 

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I have been involved for several years with corporate shoots at a club that includes a few cowboy stages in the event. The cowboy part  is  shot with 22 revolvers, 22 rifle and shotgun. The stages have to be written like the old days so the rifle is not the last weapon used. (old timers did not always pick up cowboy loads well) Many stage writers still make sure the rifle is not fired last even though new timers usually pick up rifle shots just fine so no rifles on last stage if 22 allowed.

 

Many of the participants, especially women who have not shot much do not like shooting the shotgun. Unfortunately the supplied ammo for the shotgun is way too powerful and kicks like a mule which makes it even worse.

 

The nice thing with no rifle or shotgun brass to pick up the stage go really quick.

 

SASS rules say no hollowpoint lead bullets and velocity not over 1,000 fps in handguns. I suspect many off the shelf 22 ammo will be pushing over the velocity limit. Right now standard velocity 22 might be hard to find, 

 

A comment was made about SASS power factor with a minimum of 60. A 22 using a 40 grain bullet has a PF of 40 at 1,000 fps or 44 at 1,100. Some really competitive shooters are going to say why should they have to shoot a 100 grain bullet at 600 fps for a 60 pf when someone using a 22 can get by with a much lower PF.  Just for grins,. The 41 short rimfire in the western derringers used a 130 grain bullet at 425 fps with a power factor of 55. Guess a little more power or just a little longer barrel  and the cartridge could make the PF. Someone said something about throwing rocks. Well, a baseball thrown at 40 mph which is slower than average still has a 128 PF. 

 

 

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Power Factors

The minimum standard for center-fire ammunition used in all smokeless categories in all SASS matches, including State, Regional, National, International, and World Championship competitions is not less than a minimum power factor of 60 and no velocity may be less than 400 fps.

SHB p.25

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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On 1/28/2021 at 11:04 AM, StirrupTrouble said:

And a lot of those younger shooters already own a semi auto pistol and an AR, so pretty much all they need is an ammo belt or pocket for mags. The number of the younger shooters having cowboy guns in their closet is much lower because most of them grew up with Rambo, not John Wayne

Oh they are too young for rambo too LOL. More like john wick or jason bourne 

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8 hours ago, Black RZR said:

Oh they are too young for rambo too LOL. More like john wick or jason bourne 

I'm too young for Rambo and too old for John Wick, I did like Jason Bourne... 

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So if the young'ins like 3 gun, IPSC etc. then why did Western 3 gun come and go? It mirrored 3 gun but used SASS guns!

We've determined;

It's not gun cost as the modern competition guns are more expensive.

It's not reloading or buying factory ammo.

It's not access as SASS ranges are all over.

It's not power factor as anyone can load to the max if they want to shoot hard recoiling guns.

 

I'm still pushing hard on it's John Wick, and the culture and age group of our shooters doesn't appeal to the anyone under 45 crowd. That and "dress up".

Edited by irish ike, SASS #43615
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I agree cost is a big barrier, from my experience not really feeling welcomed is another. The local clubs need to create mentorship programs, which are somehow supported much more by  SASS. That would go a long way in helping people navigate what to purchase and also become part of the community at their respective club(s).
 

When we first started, my family visited half a dozen locations. Of those, only two were really welcoming. The others felt like an animal den where we were being sniffed out by long term members. Being snubbed by folks is not the Cowboy way and also akin to being a clique.
 

Sure there was a couple friendlies at those places, but overall they were not a welcoming environment. If I was not so interested in being part of the sport, it may have been enough for me to just say the hell with this overall.

Just keep in mind, it can be intimidating to new people walking into their first match. They have no idea where to stand, who to speak with or perhaps even what the hell is going on. Just think of all the things you mentally fill after being involved all these years.
 

After a match director is contacted and the greenhorns announce they are coming a mentor should be assigned. First impressions are everything, keep that in mind. Those folks should then shadow their mentor for a match or two, get their questions answered and learn the basics of Cowboy Action Shooting. If this makes you laugh or roll your eyes, you’re part of the problem, and why a mentorship program is needed. I'm sure some clubs probably already operate like this in some capacity. If I owned one and sponsored CAS matches, it would be mandatory - if only just from a safety standpoint. 

Anyway just some food for thought. Cost AND feeling welcomed are barriers to entry. 

 

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Western 3 Gun was great! But a very small percentage of SASS shooters were really exposed to it let alone people outside the SASS community. Although movement was allowed and targets were more difficult and spread out, there was still a big difference between it and modern action shooting sports.

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2 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

Western 3 Gun was great! But a very small percentage of SASS shooters were really exposed to it let alone people outside the SASS community. Although movement was allowed and targets were more difficult and spread out, there was still a big difference between it and modern action shooting sports.

I like watching Karl from In-RangeTV run cowboy guns at the two gun matches.

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1 minute ago, El CupAJoe said:

I like watching Karl from In-RangeTV run cowboy guns at the two gun matches.

How does that work? How many rounds per stage with the pistol and rifle? Reload on the clock or stage extra guns? How far are the rifle targets? How do they score targets?

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Just now, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

How does that work? How many rounds per stage with the pistol and rifle? Reload on the clock or stage extra guns? How far are the rifle targets? How do they score targets?

you can go look it up, he has a hand in writing the stages and seemed like in 2019 He ran a 73 through a trench warfare themed match.  look up InRangeTV on youtube.  in 2020, he had some footage of Cap and Ball guns at a backup pistol match showing them side by side against colt SAA and discussing why the Cap and Ball revolvers stuck around for a longtime after cartridge guns were available.  He and Ian from Forgotton weapons have discussed 92 vs 73 and why they each think one or the other is the best lever action etc.

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3 minutes ago, El CupAJoe said:

you can go look it up, he has a hand in writing the stages and seemed like in 2019 He ran a 73 through a trench warfare themed match.  look up InRangeTV on youtube.  in 2020, he had some footage of Cap and Ball guns at a backup pistol match showing them side by side against colt SAA and discussing why the Cap and Ball revolvers stuck around for a longtime after cartridge guns were available.  He and Ian from Forgotton weapons have discussed 92 vs 73 and why they each think one or the other is the best lever action etc.

If you wanted some Advertisement for SASS, get him and Ian and the guys from IV8888 and C&Rsenal to go to a match... I know Karl at least has shot CAS before...  Demolition Ranch guy might be a hoot on a posse too...  Almost all those guys talk about the historical significance of the firearms they are reviewing.

Edited by El CupAJoe
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I looked around and found a 2gun video there with him shooting it with an Uberti Henry. He moved from barrel to barrel stopping and shooting targets from each one. Targets are out there, nothing like SASS. Another stage was shoot a few steel target from one table, run over to another table quite aways from the first and shoot some from there. Then back and forth between the tables doing the same. Sometimes he stopped and loaded the tube, sometimes single load over the top. Never shot a revolver just rifle.

 

They never showed anyone shooting a modern rifle. Couldn't tell if it was an actual match or a demonstration with the lever gun. Shooting at some distance plus getting winded from the amount of running.

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7 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

I looked around and found a 2gun video there with him shooting it with an Uberti Henry. He moved from barrel to barrel stopping and shooting targets from each one. Targets are out there, nothing like SASS. Another stage was shoot a few steel target from one table, run over to another table quite aways from the first and shoot some from there. Then back and forth between the tables doing the same. Sometimes he stopped and loaded the tube, sometimes single load over the top. Never shot a revolver just rifle.

 

They never showed anyone shooting a modern rifle. Couldn't tell if it was an actual match or a demonstration with the lever gun. Shooting at some distance plus getting winded from the amount of running.

yeah, the matches he attends are very athletic.  he's definitely competing against guys with AR's and Glocks.  they don't show any of that mostly because they are interested in using historical things on the clock to see how they perform.  due to match reload limitations, they almost always use semi's for handguns with the exception of the Backup Gun Match I mentioned.

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Surprise, surprise.. I have an opinion and some suggestions.

 

First thought is that national advertisements or recruiting will struggle because each club is unique, there is no standard SASS/CAS experience. The variety is part of what is wonderful about each club.. close and fast, smaller and tighter.. Props, buildings and leadership all create a fun, varied experience. The friendliness seems to be a constant, though I can see that some clubs, especially smaller groups, have a lot to do and not too many hands.

 

It has been a few years,  but when I was match director, president, etc, of a club, there is a handful of regular, dependable leaders and workers. It can make it tough to add ambassador to the to do list on a match day. Our club would host an introduction to Cowboy Shooting a couple times a year and roll out the red carpet. It worked pretty well, but it doesn't help with really getting new cowboys and cowgirls rolling. 

 

Also, the competitive factor has to be addressed when allowing for minimums in cartridge, guns, costuming, etc.. Because we time (and I assume still use time, hits and misses to establish the winning score); anything to do better with time will attract some who want to win. So any advantage a new shooter might have must be retained by them.

 

So.. try to find your second level shooters in your local club. These are the good folks who show up every match, work hard on the posse, show the Cowboy Way and don't want anything to do with club politics, running the club or being an officer. Most of these folks will have extra gear, likely some ammo (even in these crazy times) and advise. Do your best to match the Novice with the Ambassador that likely share common interests in the game. Authentic dress, B Western, Wild Bunch, top 5 shooter are all goals..

The Ambassador serves the Novice for 6 months, serving as a regular touchpoint for each match. Obviously the Novice could miss a match or two, but if the commitment is not there for regular attendance, then the term could be reduced or extended. The Novice would help defray cost of ammunition and other sundries. The Ambassador is a regular source of loaner guns, so that the Novice isn't under full pressure to get the full set of guns. 
Also, let the Novice be scored separately, let them shoot one revolver, skip guns they are comfortable using, etc.. their score is not available for main match consideration. 

 

Moving and grooving.. in the 3 gun matches, steel challenge, etc, there are berm bound bays that allow a lot of movement inside their boundaries. Also, the stage fronts, that are the pride of so many club's old west downtowns, really only allow for side to side motions, and not full out sprinting at that. Unless a club can build a tactical bay or two for the occasional boogie stage, it will be difficult to replicate the quick movement of the tactical matches. 

Hooboy... I may have said too much. I don't care about titles or specific execution (novice, ambassador, etc.. just place holders. ) but I think that new shooters need to find a pard to connect that can show them the way. Over the past 15 years, I have been shooting many other disciplines. Most of those events had a specific novice division, so there was no pressure, no issues with any advantage my equipment or lack of, created. 

Good to see so many folks care about growing the game.. cause we ain't getting any younger!

 

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I guess we need to put up a sign on each range that says, “Welcome visitors.  You are welcome to just watch.  If you want to learn more about cowboy action shooting, introduce yourself to anyone who smiles at you and let them know that’s why you are here!”

 

 I think prospective new shooters should have enough gumption to get the ball rolling.  If you are a stranger at my range, at least reassure me that you are not a county official checking for Covid compliance, or an ATF agent looking for something else.  When I’m at a match, I’m thinking about how to game the stages, doing posse chores.  It’s unreasonable to expect me to approach each stranger while the match is in progress.  Come up to me afterwards, tell me you enjoyed watching me shoot, and I will let you shoot my guns and ammunition until we run out.

Edited by J-BAR #18287
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No matter what type of match I'm at if I  see one or two people hanging back with no one coming up to them I'll talk to them. A lot of the time they do know someone there and are looking for them. Sometimes they come over from another part of the range and are checking out what's going on. And some have come to specifically find out about the match we're shooting. I'd hate to see someone come by and just be ignored.

 

Of course you have to still do your work as a posse or squad member, but that's part of letting them know about the requirements to shoot.

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1 hour ago, Sixgun Symphony #62632 said:

Percussion revolvers are affordable. So too are the Stoeger coachguns.

 

What is a low cost lever action short rifle?

Rossi is one. There are still deals to be found on Marlins too.

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Btw; using CAS guns in 3Gun style scenarios is challenging because your brass is all over the place. 

Regarding the photo below from Irish Ike… when my daughter was learning how to drive we walked out to my car. I said oops there's a flat tire. She said where I don't see it. I said let's pretend and threw a rolled up pair of coveralls to her. She asked what to do and I said well if you had a flat tire and I wasn't there you'd probably end up looking at the manual in the glove box.

She got the tire off and "Now what do I do with it? " 

"Well, it's still good so let's put it back on and go for a ride".

Two weeks later she's in a small SUV with three guys and they get a flat tire on the Schuylkill Expressway outside of Philly. I said what did they do? She said all the cell phones came out. In her father's passive-aggressive trash-talking way she says "What? you don't know how to change a tire?" One of them says  "can you change this tire for us?" "Yes, but if I do I'm telling everybody".

On 1/30/2021 at 1:18 PM, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

cowboys.thumb.jpg.4c4f0504ff5b9b244c167e03b9401fc4.jpg

 

Edited by meesterpaul
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2 hours ago, meesterpaul said:

Btw; using CAS guns in 3Gun style scenarios is challenging because your brass is all over the place. 

Regarding the photo below fromIrish Ike… when my daughter was learning how to drive we walked out to my car. I said oops there's a flat tire. She said where I don't see it. I said let's pretend and through a rolled up pair of coveralls to her. She asked what to do and I said well if you had a flat tire and I wasn't there you probably end up looking in the glove box at the manual. She got the tire off and "Now what do I do with it? " 

" well, it's still good so let's put it back on and go for a ride".

Two weeks later she's in a small SUV with three guys and they get a flat tire on the Schuylkill Expressway outside of Philly. I said what did they do? She said all the cell phones came out. In her father's passive-aggressive trash-talking way she says "What? you don't know how to change a tire?" One of them says  "can you change this tire for us?" "Yes, but if I do I'm telling everybody".

 

All three of my daughters can change a flat. Although I'm pretty sure their sarcasm comes from a recessive gene.

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On 1/31/2021 at 7:34 PM, Jack Spade said:

Case in point, the individual who snatches up all the deal in the classifieds struck again this afternoon and grabbed another pair of reasonably priced SASS vaqueros.  They will soon be listed on gunbroker with a 40-50% mark up.   I have three cowboys that I am trying to keep interested and we are shuffling guns and leather during the matches.   They would all three like to find a reasonably priced set of guns but the mentioned individual buys every one that is listed.  Go back through the listings and just look at how many he buys and this doesn't even take into account the ones bought in PM or that he undercuts an OP on a WTB post.  Yeah, I am the guy who he poached three sets off my WTB listing.  It is getting ridiculous and I feel like the admins need to do something about this.  

 

 

 

If you see a good deal, buy them before someone else does. Don't delay 

 

 

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On 1/29/2021 at 8:27 PM, Chert Rock Chuck said:

This is one of the reasons I feel it is wrong for vendors to be allowed to buy on the wire classifieds in order to mark up and resell on their market place account.

 I am of the opinion that the wire classifieds should be for shooters to buy, sell, and trade among themselves for the ability to acquire gear at less than retail cost.

 Most all pairs of desirable revolvers and shotguns that are posted for bargain prices are immediately snatched up by the same few folks that simply mark them up to the cost of a new stock gun or more. No bargains to be had when this happens. 
 

 

Then why do people sell more than once TO those "same few folks"?

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If a vendor buys at the asking price and then sells them later, he has done no dis-service to the seller. Yes, someone else did not get the bargain, but it is no different than walking into a garage sale and seeing the item you had been wanting already sold to someone else. That is how the vendor makes their living. They are doing nothing wrong by buying smart. That is how they feed their family.

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I am a new guy. I have never been to a match. A friend of mine and i have been in the gun hobby for most of our lives, hunting together when in high school to now at 65 yr old. 

 

We got interested in cowboy handguns this year. Up until now, i always said they were handguns that needed real sights put on them so you could hit a target. 

 

Well, the handguns led to finding out about sass since we were investigating colt 45 guns. I am a weirdo, so i went with schofields while he went with 45 colt. 

 

We looked at sass and we both immediately bitched about needing 2 handguns, which meant double holsters too, which we bitched more about. We both like single rigs. Then, there is “taste”. We are waaaay past cheap guns in our gun preferences, so we looked at close to $4,000 in guns just to start out. I wanted s&w schofields, so i blew over that on just a pair of handguns. 

 

We joined sass, but have still not committed to joining in on the shoots. We are getting old and like to shoot “just for the fun of it” while bull*****g and not caring how fast we get done. Both of us contemplating rifles now,,i did buy a 45 colt marlin to see if it will shoot my schofields, and i already own a few side by sides. Have not given any thought to carts yet. 

 

I hate holloween, so that explains how i feel about dressing up. I am a little over weight, so a hat and long sleeves in the summer? Hmmm.

 

No real purpose to this reply,, just a new guy rambling.

 

 

 

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We are getting old and like to shoot “just for the fun of it” while bull*****g and not caring how fast we get done.

 

Then this is the game for you if you want just a little competition every once in a while.  But most of the time, you can just shoot for fun and shoot bull.... the rest of the time.  Most of the  rest of us do!

 

good luck, GJ

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On 2/2/2021 at 6:14 PM, Sixgun Symphony #62632 said:

What is a low cost lever action short rifle?

45 Colt Marlins may be the best value. No premium for versions in 45 and my two have been completely reliable. 

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On 2/4/2021 at 1:12 PM, Marshall Dillon said:

No real purpose to this reply,, just a new guy rambling.

I hope you get out there. Bet you'd have fun with those Schofields. If I wasn't so cheap I'd like to try them too. 

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On 2/4/2021 at 1:12 PM, Marshall Dillon said:

I am a new guy. I have never been to a match. A friend of mine and i have been in the gun hobby for most of our lives, hunting together when in high school to now at 65 yr old. 

 

We got interested in cowboy handguns this year. Up until now, i always said they were handguns that needed real sights put on them so you could hit a target. 

 

Well, the handguns led to finding out about sass since we were investigating colt 45 guns. I am a weirdo, so i went with schofields while he went with 45 colt. 

 

We looked at sass and we both immediately bitched about needing 2 handguns, which meant double holsters too, which we bitched more about. We both like single rigs. Then, there is “taste”. We are waaaay past cheap guns in our gun preferences, so we looked at close to $4,000 in guns just to start out. I wanted s&w schofields, so i blew over that on just a pair of handguns. 

 

We joined sass, but have still not committed to joining in on the shoots. We are getting old and like to shoot “just for the fun of it” while bull*****g and not caring how fast we get done. Both of us contemplating rifles now,,i did buy a 45 colt marlin to see if it will shoot my schofields, and i already own a few side by sides. Have not given any thought to carts yet. 

 

I hate holloween, so that explains how i feel about dressing up. I am a little over weight, so a hat and long sleeves in the summer? Hmmm.

 

No real purpose to this reply,, just a new guy rambling.

 

 

 

It's obvious you have never shot a match, because once you have, those "b1tches" will become inconsequential.

I have been a little overweight, so what, so are others. I ALWAYS wear long sleeves and a hat and I live in Georgia. You can find lighter shirts that work fine (AND keep the hot brass off yer arms) and a nice wide brim straw hat keeps the sun off while not being too hot. Get out and get a match or two under your belt and you'll figure it all out.

Schofields are cool, I started with '75 Remingtons, because I wanted something different too. There are so many variables to play with and so much more than just going shooting. Enjoy

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On 2/4/2021 at 12:12 PM, Marshall Dillon said:

I am a little over weight, so a hat and long sleeves in the summer? Hmmm.

 

A lot of folks love the 'cooler cowboy shirt' https://buyrevi.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=1, especially in the summer.

 

The vendor is also running a sale on them right now....39.00

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19 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

A lot of folks love the 'cooler cowboy shirt' https://buyrevi.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=1, especially in the summer.

 

The vendor is also running a sale on them right now....39.00

I never noticed they advertise as odorless.  I may need to buy a few to strategically give away as birthday presents. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

It's obvious you have never shot a match, because once you have, those "b1tches" will become inconsequential.

Maybe they will, but only because i have already committed to be a part of sass. I have tried to interest other shooters to come with me, but as soon as they figure out the cost to start, they shake their heads no.

 

The price to play will always be a stumbling block for new shooters,,,always. Two handguns is one of the costs that could be reduced.

 

Ammo, going forward has potential to be the next “cost” stumbling block as present day politics may make ammo costs soar, permanently.  This means opening up for 22lr will be more and more needed in the future.

 

Young shooters will not be the target. Most cannot afford it.  We learned this while running a trap shoot. Young shooters came with fathers to shoot as long as father was paying the fees. When they got old enough to be on their own, they had other more pressing needs for their money. Once they got older, a career and a family going, some came back to shoot. They could afford it then. 

 

I do not see the costuming as blocking new shooters, even though it does not excite me personally. Gotta wear cloths anyway,,,,,,,

 

 

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