Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 211 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 One of the changes in the 2021 Handbook (Version 25.1 January 1, 2021) is the addition of “hollow point” bullets to the list of prohibited rifle/pistol ammunition. The text of the rule now reads: “May not be jacketed, semi-jacketed, hollow point, plated, or gas checked. It must be all lead. Moly-Disulfide, polymer coated bullets, or equivalents are acceptable.” An all lead hollow point bullet would be prohibited by the first sentence but seems OK under the second. Was it the ROC’s intention to prohibit all-lead hollow point bullets? With the current ammo shortage I want to be sure I am interpreting the rule correctly before I disappoint a shooter or assess a penalty. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L 5,075 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 5 minutes ago, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said: One of the changes in the 2021 Handbook (Version 25.1 January 1, 2021) is the addition of “hollow point” bullets to the list of prohibited rifle/pistol ammunition. The text of the rule now reads: “May not be jacketed, semi-jacketed, hollow point, plated, or gas checked. It must be all lead. Moly-Disulfide, polymer coated bullets, or equivalents are acceptable.” An all lead hollow point bullet would be prohibited by the first sentence but seems OK under the second. Was it the ROC’s intention to prohibit all-lead hollow point bullets? With the current ammo shortage I want to be sure I am interpreting the rule correctly before I disappoint a shooter or assess a penalty. The statement: "May not be...hollow point..." applies to ALL types of bullets, including all lead. The reason for adding hollow point ammunition was a safety concern regarding potentially hazardous fragmentation of those bullets when shooting steel targets at close range. The question came up a few times recently due (in part) to the current shortage of factory solid lead "Cowboy" loads. 5 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DeaconKC 2,195 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Rats! I have a couple boxes of those. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The Original Lumpy Gritz 7,477 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 24 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: The statement: "May not be...hollow point..." applies to ALL types of bullets, including all lead. The reason for adding hollow point ammunition was a safety concern regarding potentially hazardous fragmentation of those bullets when shooting steel targets at close range. The question came up a few times recently due (in part) to the current shortage of factory solid lead "Cowboy" loads. Was any research done on this? I do feel it's a non-issue. In fact, it may well be an aid to reducing splash-back. Respectfully, OLG 5 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 211 Posted January 27 Author Share Posted January 27 52 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: The statement: "May not be...hollow point..." applies to ALL types of bullets, including all lead. The reason for adding hollow point ammunition was a safety concern regarding potentially hazardous fragmentation of those bullets when shooting steel targets at close range. The question came up a few times recently due (in part) to the current shortage of factory solid lead "Cowboy" loads. I appreciate the prompt response. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Colorado Coffinmaker 3,558 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Unfortunately, many Ranges and Clubs shoot poorly designed Targets/Mounts. At those ranges, fragmentation should be a very real concern. Were everybody shooting properly designed and executed targets and stands, it would be a Non Issue. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 487 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 14 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: Unfortunately, many Ranges and Clubs shoot poorly designed Targets/Mounts. At those ranges, fragmentation should be a very real concern. Were everybody shooting properly designed and executed targets and stands, it would be a Non Issue. Of course. But has anyone really looked at this and determined that cast lead hollowpoint bullets are a problem compared to solid nose lead. Or is this just an assumption? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Colorado Coffinmaker 3,558 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Hey Gator, I don't actually see where the concern is driven by any real Science. There is apparently a presumption that all-lead hollow points are going to fragment against a steel target. Error on the side of Caution?? I would be inclined to think an all-lead hollow point would just flatten out like any other all-lead bullet. Would be interesting to see some high speed photography of impacts. Probably won't happen, but would be interesting. Any back-splatter from a poor target can be righteously Nasty. It's their Elephant and Their Monkeys so "they" get to make the rules. If we are going to play in their Circus, we have to play by their rules. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 487 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 I guess I'm assuming there wouldn't be a measurable difference with lead bullets. Everyone seems to agree that a nice flat plate is better and safer then a dented, pock marked plate. I would think you'd achieve more safety wise by addressing clubs using damaged targets instead of banning lead hollowpoints unless you could show otherwise. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 216 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: Unfortunately, many Ranges and Clubs shoot poorly designed Targets/Mounts. At those ranges, fragmentation should be a very real concern. Were everybody shooting properly designed and executed targets and stands, it would be a Non Issue. Well then shouldn’t the poorly designed targets/mounts then be regulated if for no other reason than for the safety of the shooters and spectators? Seems to me that should have been in the rules prior to discussing bullets. And if it has been and is in the handbook then my apologies for brining up a topic that has already been addressed. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 1,248 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 1 hour ago, Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 said: Well then shouldn’t the poorly designed targets/mounts then be regulated if for no other reason than for the safety of the shooters and spectators? Seems to me that should have been in the rules prior to discussing bullets. And if it has been and is in the handbook then my apologies for brining up a topic that has already been addressed. https://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/Match Dir Guide 103018.pdf 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L 5,075 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: https://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/Match Dir Guide 103018.pdf pages 5-6 Edited January 28 by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L edit txt 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 216 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 3 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: https://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/Match Dir Guide 103018.pdf Well I don’t feel so bad for not knowing what was in the Match Dr Guide, not one so never read it. However if it is covered in that guide then there shouldn’t be any, right? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Springfield Slim SASS #24733 679 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 If you have ever been to night shoot with any kind of backlighting you would know that most bullet shatter/fragment and the pieces go almost everywhere. About 8 years ago a local club was stating out at a new range but the range owners wanted to collect the lead as they didn't want it to pile up near the front, as normally all the bullets went into the berm. So the new cowboy club put plastic tarps under the steel plates to collect it all. At the end of the match, with about 12 shooters completing a 4 stage match, we gathered up the tarps to collect the lead. All the lead on all the tarps wouldn't even fill the palm of one hand. I shoot BP with soft cast bullets of my own, and don't shoot hollowpoints, but I think this is a rule for a non-existent problem. With the shortage of components, which is only going to get worse, it seems short sighted to limit SASS shooters without any real, proper testing. If some has been done it wold be nice for us to see a report on the results. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Griff 1,607 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 IME, hollow point lead bullets are more time consuming to make, more expensive to buy. Frankly, I've never seen the point for cowboy shooting. 2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Widder, SASS #59054 7,847 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 Hollow Point: restricted Hollow Base: ? One of the most popular bullets for a long time is the .38 caliber, 148 gr Hollow Base Wadcutter. Would that also be restricted and forbidden to use? ..........Widder Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L 5,075 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 14 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said: Hollow Point: restricted Hollow Base: ? One of the most popular bullets for a long time is the .38 caliber, 148 gr Hollow Base Wadcutter. Would that also be restricted and forbidden to use? ..........Widder NO. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
irish ike, SASS #43615 1,253 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 One of the prime directives for our sport is........"safety first". Extensive testing would start a 12 page discussion, what hardness lead, what caliber, smokeless or bp, what gun(s), what distances, what grade steel, target placement & stands used, and what condition of steel. The rule is in place for safety reasons as determined by the people who own and run this company. Move on, nothing else to see or opine on here. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 1,149 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Is a lead hollow point filled with Crisco still a hollow point? Asking for a friend lol. 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Griff 1,607 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 49 minutes ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said: Is a lead hollow point filled with Crisco still a hollow point? Asking for a friend lol. Whether the trapdoor in yer longjohns is buttoned or not, it's still a hole in yer underwear! 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Smoken D 2,411 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Many years ago the rule said, no hollow points. End of discussion. Times have changed fer sure. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Palo Verde, SASS # 56522 94 Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 On 1/27/2021 at 1:32 PM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Was any research done on this? I do feel it's a non-issue. In fact, it may well be an aid to reducing splash-back. Respectfully, OLG Good question which, apparently, pastel lupus chose to not respond Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bgavin 1,610 Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Now that clubs are allowing 22LR during the chronic shortage, I wonder if this rule also applies to 22. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tulsey, SASS#11236 21 Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 I spent last weekend pulling the hollow point lead bullets out of my .44 Russian loads, that were perfectly legal when I loaded them in December. I must say I am not happy with the decision not having a down the road date so we could use up what we have loaded or have in stock to use. 2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Equanimous Phil 282 Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Was there a TG voting as outlawing hollowpoints is technically seen a rule change? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ace_of_Hearts 1,140 Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 On 1/27/2021 at 12:02 PM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: The statement: "May not be...hollow point..." applies to ALL types of bullets, including all lead. The reason for adding hollow point ammunition was a safety concern regarding potentially hazardous fragmentation of those bullets when shooting steel targets at close range. The question came up a few times recently due (in part) to the current shortage of factory solid lead "Cowboy" loads. Happened to notice that there is no such prohibition when shooting Wild Bunch. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ace_of_Hearts 1,140 Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 18 hours ago, bgavin said: Now that clubs are allowing 22LR during the chronic shortage, I wonder if this rule also applies to 22. The rule applies to ALL ammunition. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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