Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 One of the changes in the 2021 Handbook (Version 25.1 January 1, 2021) is the addition of “hollow point” bullets to the list of prohibited rifle/pistol ammunition. The text of the rule now reads: “May not be jacketed, semi-jacketed, hollow point, plated, or gas checked. It must be all lead. Moly-Disulfide, polymer coated bullets, or equivalents are acceptable.” An all lead hollow point bullet would be prohibited by the first sentence but seems OK under the second. Was it the ROC’s intention to prohibit all-lead hollow point bullets? With the current ammo shortage I want to be sure I am interpreting the rule correctly before I disappoint a shooter or assess a penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 5 minutes ago, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said: One of the changes in the 2021 Handbook (Version 25.1 January 1, 2021) is the addition of “hollow point” bullets to the list of prohibited rifle/pistol ammunition. The text of the rule now reads: “May not be jacketed, semi-jacketed, hollow point, plated, or gas checked. It must be all lead. Moly-Disulfide, polymer coated bullets, or equivalents are acceptable.” An all lead hollow point bullet would be prohibited by the first sentence but seems OK under the second. Was it the ROC’s intention to prohibit all-lead hollow point bullets? With the current ammo shortage I want to be sure I am interpreting the rule correctly before I disappoint a shooter or assess a penalty. The statement: "May not be...hollow point..." applies to ALL types of bullets, including all lead. The reason for adding hollow point ammunition was a safety concern regarding potentially hazardous fragmentation of those bullets when shooting steel targets at close range. The question came up a few times recently due (in part) to the current shortage of factory solid lead "Cowboy" loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeaconKC Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 Rats! I have a couple boxes of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 24 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: The statement: "May not be...hollow point..." applies to ALL types of bullets, including all lead. The reason for adding hollow point ammunition was a safety concern regarding potentially hazardous fragmentation of those bullets when shooting steel targets at close range. The question came up a few times recently due (in part) to the current shortage of factory solid lead "Cowboy" loads. Was any research done on this? I do feel it's a non-issue. In fact, it may well be an aid to reducing splash-back. Respectfully, OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 Posted January 27, 2021 Author Share Posted January 27, 2021 52 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: The statement: "May not be...hollow point..." applies to ALL types of bullets, including all lead. The reason for adding hollow point ammunition was a safety concern regarding potentially hazardous fragmentation of those bullets when shooting steel targets at close range. The question came up a few times recently due (in part) to the current shortage of factory solid lead "Cowboy" loads. I appreciate the prompt response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 Unfortunately, many Ranges and Clubs shoot poorly designed Targets/Mounts. At those ranges, fragmentation should be a very real concern. Were everybody shooting properly designed and executed targets and stands, it would be a Non Issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 14 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: Unfortunately, many Ranges and Clubs shoot poorly designed Targets/Mounts. At those ranges, fragmentation should be a very real concern. Were everybody shooting properly designed and executed targets and stands, it would be a Non Issue. Of course. But has anyone really looked at this and determined that cast lead hollowpoint bullets are a problem compared to solid nose lead. Or is this just an assumption? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 Hey Gator, I don't actually see where the concern is driven by any real Science. There is apparently a presumption that all-lead hollow points are going to fragment against a steel target. Error on the side of Caution?? I would be inclined to think an all-lead hollow point would just flatten out like any other all-lead bullet. Would be interesting to see some high speed photography of impacts. Probably won't happen, but would be interesting. Any back-splatter from a poor target can be righteously Nasty. It's their Elephant and Their Monkeys so "they" get to make the rules. If we are going to play in their Circus, we have to play by their rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 I guess I'm assuming there wouldn't be a measurable difference with lead bullets. Everyone seems to agree that a nice flat plate is better and safer then a dented, pock marked plate. I would think you'd achieve more safety wise by addressing clubs using damaged targets instead of banning lead hollowpoints unless you could show otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: Unfortunately, many Ranges and Clubs shoot poorly designed Targets/Mounts. At those ranges, fragmentation should be a very real concern. Were everybody shooting properly designed and executed targets and stands, it would be a Non Issue. Well then shouldn’t the poorly designed targets/mounts then be regulated if for no other reason than for the safety of the shooters and spectators? Seems to me that should have been in the rules prior to discussing bullets. And if it has been and is in the handbook then my apologies for brining up a topic that has already been addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 1 hour ago, Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 said: Well then shouldn’t the poorly designed targets/mounts then be regulated if for no other reason than for the safety of the shooters and spectators? Seems to me that should have been in the rules prior to discussing bullets. And if it has been and is in the handbook then my apologies for brining up a topic that has already been addressed. https://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/Match Dir Guide 103018.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: https://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/Match Dir Guide 103018.pdf pages 5-6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 3 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: https://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/Match Dir Guide 103018.pdf Well I don’t feel so bad for not knowing what was in the Match Dr Guide, not one so never read it. However if it is covered in that guide then there shouldn’t be any, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Slim SASS #24733 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 If you have ever been to night shoot with any kind of backlighting you would know that most bullet shatter/fragment and the pieces go almost everywhere. About 8 years ago a local club was stating out at a new range but the range owners wanted to collect the lead as they didn't want it to pile up near the front, as normally all the bullets went into the berm. So the new cowboy club put plastic tarps under the steel plates to collect it all. At the end of the match, with about 12 shooters completing a 4 stage match, we gathered up the tarps to collect the lead. All the lead on all the tarps wouldn't even fill the palm of one hand. I shoot BP with soft cast bullets of my own, and don't shoot hollowpoints, but I think this is a rule for a non-existent problem. With the shortage of components, which is only going to get worse, it seems short sighted to limit SASS shooters without any real, proper testing. If some has been done it wold be nice for us to see a report on the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 IME, hollow point lead bullets are more time consuming to make, more expensive to buy. Frankly, I've never seen the point for cowboy shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 Hollow Point: restricted Hollow Base: ? One of the most popular bullets for a long time is the .38 caliber, 148 gr Hollow Base Wadcutter. Would that also be restricted and forbidden to use? ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 14 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said: Hollow Point: restricted Hollow Base: ? One of the most popular bullets for a long time is the .38 caliber, 148 gr Hollow Base Wadcutter. Would that also be restricted and forbidden to use? ..........Widder NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 One of the prime directives for our sport is........"safety first". Extensive testing would start a 12 page discussion, what hardness lead, what caliber, smokeless or bp, what gun(s), what distances, what grade steel, target placement & stands used, and what condition of steel. The rule is in place for safety reasons as determined by the people who own and run this company. Move on, nothing else to see or opine on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 Is a lead hollow point filled with Crisco still a hollow point? Asking for a friend lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 49 minutes ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said: Is a lead hollow point filled with Crisco still a hollow point? Asking for a friend lol. Whether the trapdoor in yer longjohns is buttoned or not, it's still a hole in yer underwear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoken D Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 Many years ago the rule said, no hollow points. End of discussion. Times have changed fer sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palo Verde, SASS # 56522 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 On 1/27/2021 at 1:32 PM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Was any research done on this? I do feel it's a non-issue. In fact, it may well be an aid to reducing splash-back. Respectfully, OLG Good question which, apparently, pastel lupus chose to not respond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgavin Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 Now that clubs are allowing 22LR during the chronic shortage, I wonder if this rule also applies to 22. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulsey, SASS#11236 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 I spent last weekend pulling the hollow point lead bullets out of my .44 Russian loads, that were perfectly legal when I loaded them in December. I must say I am not happy with the decision not having a down the road date so we could use up what we have loaded or have in stock to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Equanimous Phil Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 Was there a TG voting as outlawing hollowpoints is technically seen a rule change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 On 1/27/2021 at 12:02 PM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: The statement: "May not be...hollow point..." applies to ALL types of bullets, including all lead. The reason for adding hollow point ammunition was a safety concern regarding potentially hazardous fragmentation of those bullets when shooting steel targets at close range. The question came up a few times recently due (in part) to the current shortage of factory solid lead "Cowboy" loads. Happened to notice that there is no such prohibition when shooting Wild Bunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 18 hours ago, bgavin said: Now that clubs are allowing 22LR during the chronic shortage, I wonder if this rule also applies to 22. The rule applies to ALL ammunition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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