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Live round on carrier or live round in the chamber?


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6 hours ago, Griff said:

The basic reasoning behind safety penalties, as I recall from very early meetings amongst the Wild Bunch, is that anything 2 or less  steps from a weapon firing was a stage disqualification. 

That sounds very reasonable and I support that idea because SAFETY FIRST! ALWAYS! Hence, with a round in the carrier:

  1. Closing the lever
  2. Pull the trigger

==> SDQ, at least with a toggle link rifle like a 73, 66 or 60 (and that's what probably >90% shoot)

 

PWB indicated that there are ore types of rifles where the behavior must be different, meaning if you close the lever with a round in the action and pull the trigger it won't necessarily go bang. As I have absolutely no experience with Marlins, 92s or whatever else there is, someone had to educate me.

15 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

it basically comes down to having rules/penalties that can be applied to all types and models of long guns used in competition without variations dependent on action type (e.g. 1897 vs SxS shotguns or 1866/73 vs 1894 rifles).

 

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15 hours ago, Happy Jack, SASS #20451 said:

We could make it simple like many other shooting sports:

 

 Only 1 penalty on the books a MDQ.  If it is unsafe a MDQ, if not a no call.

 

Btw, personally I could live with that, MDQ for any safety violation, Ps, Misses and SoGs for the rest.

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On 1/21/2021 at 10:11 AM, Cannon said:

Mostly my experience is the round is found at the unload table.

 

20 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Any part of round in chamber is easy to spot WHEN SOMEONE LOOKS.   If no one looks at the line, and the first examination is at the unloading table, THEN YOU CALL WHAT IS SEEN THERE.

 

Of course, a good TO should look always anytime everywhere and BoD always goes to the shooter.

 

Beeing still quite a newbie, I haven't attended a match yet where a life round was found in a rifle at the ULT. But neither have I seen a TO inspecting a rifle before retrieved by the shooter. If the stage runs fine, I heavily doubt that most TOs rather look at the rifle than on the next firearm beeing grabbed or drawn. Also consider that rifle is rarely/never last gun.

 

I think there's an issue with this current ruling, but as others said "bring it to the TGs or accept it". I prefer to watch and learn for a while, stay equanimous and accept it for now.

 

Equanimous Phil

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8 hours ago, Griff said:

The basic reasoning behind safety penalties, as I recall from very early meetings amongst the Wild Bunch, is that anything 2 or less  steps from a weapon firing was a stage disqualification.  A round in the chamber was 1 - close the bolt, 2 - pull the trigger.  A round on the carrier, regardless of where the carrier was 3 steps, and would be a MSV...   And my understanding of it may not have been perfect then, less so now.  And these have all changed somewhat in the interim. 

 

If you look at the definition of what constitutes an "open" action, and look at what constitutes a round in the chamber, you'll note the similarity.  The LEAST little bit open, is open;  the least little bit in, is in.  

Hey, some information as opposed to a dig. Thank you Griff. As I think back (many years) it seems I do remember something about the "steps" from firing. Just because "that's the way it is" and "it's been that way forever", does not mean it's right or it makes sense. We actually can look at the way we do things from time to time and make changes if it makes sense to. Honestly, you cannot say that the entire Shooter's Handbook is clear and easy to understand; I'm sorry, it's not.

I know it's come a long way and the folks that maintain it are the best and my hat's off to them... but there is always room for improvement. 

Thanks again Griff... and PWB and all who "keep the peace".

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1 hour ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

 

Of course, a good TO should look always anytime everywhere and BoD always goes to the shooter.

 

Beeing still quite a newbie, I haven't attended a match yet where a life round was found in a rifle at the ULT. But neither have I seen a TO inspecting a rifle before retrieved by the shooter. If the stage runs fine, I heavily doubt that most TOs rather look at the rifle than on the next firearm beeing grabbed or drawn. Also consider that rifle is rarely/never last gun.

 

I think there's an issue with this current ruling, but as others said "bring it to the TGs or accept it". I prefer to watch and learn for a while, stay equanimous and accept it for now.

 

Equanimous Phil

A good TO will count the number of rounds fired and can observe the rounds being ejected from the rifle, even from a fast shooter.  You don't necessarily have to look in the chamber as it's sitting on the prop.  That said, a good TO will look if they think something is amiss.  That's not to say the TO will call a shooter back to correct it, though.  Sometimes, trying to correct a round on the carrier can cause a more dangerous situation, and penalty, than just letting it go.

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Big thanks to Griff. I can understand that reasoning. It also clears up anyone that asks about a revolver having a live round in it.

Understanding the reasoning makes it easier to explain when sometimes emotions can be elevated. This will make it easier if I happen to be giving or receiving the bad news. Hopefully it will help others as well if they stumbled across this thread

I really, really enjoy this game. I also work fairly hard at it when I can. I have learned a lot because of it and made lifetime REAL friends because of SASS. I definitely don't want to move on because I don't understand something!

Thanks to all who responded to this. I'm not sure if the moderators should lock or delete this. I don't think it needs to be open for anymore questions or statements. Thanks again.

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1 hour ago, Chief Rick said:

A good TO will count the number of rounds fired and can observe the rounds being ejected from the rifle, even from a fast shooter.  You don't necessarily have to look in the chamber as it's sitting on the prop. 

Yes, that's what every TO does, and if someone overloaded his/her rifle - yes, that happens now and then - there are those suprised looks at the ULT.

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What’s the call, or how do you proceed,  when the shooter picks up rifle and fires 9 rounds, grounds open rifle, takes hands off rifle, TO/gallery shouts 1 more, shooter picks up rifle, closes action fires round and hits target, grounds now empty rifle properly and finishes the stage properly with remaining guns? 

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44 minutes ago, Renegade Plowboy said:

What’s the call, or how do you proceed,  when the shooter picks up rifle and fires 9 rounds, grounds open rifle, takes hands off rifle, TO/gallery shouts 1 more, shooter picks up rifle, closes action fires round and hits target, grounds now empty rifle properly and finishes the stage properly with remaining guns? 

No call.  Shooter has until the next firearm is fired to correct the situation.

 

Safe Conditions During a Course of Fire – Rifles A rifle is considered SAFE to leave the shooter’s hands in the following condition(s) only (some conditions may be corrected before firing the next firearm): - Empty. - Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed (restaged for further use).

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6 hours ago, Griff said:

No call.  Shooter has until the next firearm is fired to correct the situation.

Not if even only the tip of the round is in the chamber (which is very likely to happen when restaging on a flat surface), then it's immediately an SDQ when the rifle leaves his hands. You cannot correct an SDQ situation.

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21 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

...

 

PWB indicated that there are ore types of rifles where the behavior must be different, meaning if you close the lever with a round in the action and pull the trigger it won't necessarily go bang. As I have absolutely no experience with Marlins, 92s or whatever else there is, someone had to educate me.

 

 

That's not what I meant.

Some rifles place the next round in line with the chamber when the action is opened (toggle-link models), others do so as the action is closed (e.g. Marlins).

The likelihood of a loose round in the action slipping into the chamber of an open rifle when restaged varies dependent on a number of other factors.

 

Bottom line (as previously mentioned by others):

Pay attention to the stage instructions regarding round count required.

Pay attention at the LT when loading the rifle (don't rely on the mythical LTO to help count the number of rounds loaded).

FIRE the appropriate number of rounds at the targets to complete the shooting string.

If in doubt, lever twice and/or visually check that the action is clear before restaging...and leave the lever open.

 

 

 

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18 hours ago, Cannon said:

...

Thanks to all who responded to this. I'm not sure if the moderators should lock or delete this. I don't think it needs to be open for anymore questions or statements. Thanks again.

 

If you want this thread unlocked to continue the discussion, "report" it...the moderators can unlock it.

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