WTC - Grounding Rifle

[Marauder SASS #13056 1,063]

1 hour ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Shooters seem to forget that the ground is a perfectly place to stage a malfunctioning firearm.

 

That's if you can reach it!!

Some of us would need a LOT of help after setting it there.

[Colorado Coffinmaker 3,463]

 

Luckily, most places I shoot these days separate shooting strings with "Make Rifle/pistol/shotgun Safe.  No need to "Re-Stage" and much more forgiving in the event of a "malfunction."

[Shooting Bull 1,964]

15 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Luckily, most places I shoot these days separate shooting strings with "Make Rifle/pistol/shotgun Safe.  No need to "Re-Stage" and much more forgiving in the event of a "malfunction."

 

That's all well and good until you have downrange movement. 

[Null N. Void 554]

1 minute ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

That's all well and good until you have downrange movement. 

 

The solution I have is to have a start plate on the ground.  After shooting the long gun string, take it with to to the next position.   I don't specify where to make it safe, just that you do.  

[Ace_of_Hearts 1,113]

24 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

That's if you can reach it!!

Some of us would need a LOT of help after setting it there.

I don't have trouble getting down to the ground........It's the getting up part that always seems to hurt the most!

 

[Ace_of_Hearts 1,113]

1 hour ago, Equanimous Phil said:

If you walk downrange afterwards? 

YES!

Just make sure you don't walk in front of it.

 

 

[Shooting Bull 1,964]

57 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

I don't have trouble getting down to the ground........It's the getting up part that always seems to hurt the most!

 

 

 

That's my line! 

[Ace_of_Hearts 1,113]

2 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

 

That's my line! 

Once you are down it takes a squad to get you back up!

 

[Captain Bill Burt 3,236]

4 hours ago, Assassin said:

Yes, however the scenario said "place the empty rifle in the vertical rack". This conversation could have been avoided by less directives from the writer. We try to incorporate little time saving advantages into a stage, it's free time if a shooter's smart enough to find the advantage. 

I would like a SASS convention that says ‘Unless  Stage directions say otherwise long guns may be made safe anywhere the shooter chooses.’ Then even ‘made safe’ could be omitted. Give rifle instructions, then instructions for the next gun.

[Colorado Coffinmaker 3,463]

Shooting Bull!!

 

Make it safe does not mean "put it down."  You can carry it with you to the next position then set it down.  We alway have a "prop" of some sort at each shooting position so guns can be carried along.  We also shoot some stages where the instructions specify where to set it down.  I hope this made sense.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 1,134]

50 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I would like a SASS convention that says ‘Unless  Stage directions say otherwise long guns may be made safe anywhere the shooter chooses.’ Then even ‘made safe’ could be omitted. Give rifle instructions, then instructions for the next gun.

Is that not already the case?

 

SHB pg 16

Quote

Long guns will be emptied and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange. This condition may be corrected on the clock, prior to the next round being fired. If the long gun is not discarded empty prior to the next firearm being fired, only the shooter may return to open and/or clear the firearm at the end of the stage under the observation of the CRO/TO. Should an empty casing/hull be ejected or found in the action or chamber, or a live round on the carrier of an open action, a Minor Safety Violation (MSV) will be assessed. However, if the action is opened, and a live/unfired round is ejected, a Stage DQ (SDQ) will be assessed for a long gun with a “live round under a cocked hammer having left the shooter’s hands”. In this case, there is no opportunity to correct this condition before firing the next firearm, as the penalty takes effect upon leaving the shooter’s hands. 

 

[Smoky Pistols 668]

5 hours ago, Assassin said:

Yes, however the scenario said "place the empty rifle in the vertical rack". This conversation could have been avoided by less directives from the writer. We try to incorporate little time saving advantages into a stage, it's free time if a shooter's smart enough to find the advantage. 

The rifle was not "empty".  I would think the shooter took the safer approach-for all concerned.

  And if it merited a P then I would have gladly taken it, so long as it was the safer thing to do.

Edited January 13 by Smoky Pistols

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 870]

And I agree 100%. And I see the issue that the inst said to restage the rifle vertically and he did not. I thought you were asking why he couldn't (cuz the inst said he couldn't). I try to give shooters options as well when I write stages. Makes em happy to run it in a way they've decided.

[Ace_of_Hearts 1,113]

Stage instruction say - Engage rifle targets from right table. and then make rifle safe on left table. Shooter has malfunction with rifle and makes rifle safe on the right table.

Would you then assign a penalty for making it safe on the wrong table?

 

Once a malfunction exists, making the gun safe is the primary responsibility of the shooter and overrides any stage instructions to the contrary.

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L 4,870]

2 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Stage instruction say - Engage rifle targets from right table. and then make rifle safe on left table. Shooter has malfunction with rifle and makes rifle safe on the right table.

Would you then assign a penalty for making it safe on the wrong table?

 

Once a malfunction exists, making the gun safe is the primary responsibility of the shooter and overrides any stage instructions to the contrary.

 

 

Same would apply to a revolver which must be reholstered at the end of the shooting string.
In event of a malfunction, reholstering is not an option.
 

[Captain Bill Burt 3,236]

6 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Same would apply to a revolver which must be reholstered at the end of the shooting string.
In event of a malfunction, reholstering is not an option.
 

Exactly. Do what’s expedient, and SAFE.

[Creeker, SASS #43022 2,669]

In most cases - vertical staging is in place to allow for safe downrange movement.

 

And if the directive for the vertical rack is simply there to provide for safe movement - then the make safe instruction should suffice and ANY restage that makes safe is appropriate.

 

BUT, and there is always a but; sometimes vertical staging/ restaging is in place because the flavor of the stage requires it. 

And because it is a "different" component of the shooting experience beyond always picking up off a table and returning to the table.

 

An example is the rack in the sheriff's office - you break out of jail and steal a rifle; the rifle would have been in a vertical rack in every western I have ever seen.  

The drunken deputy leaves his shotgun unattended; it would be propped up against a wall - not laying across a table.

 

There may be reasons beyond "make safe" to specify where a firearm comes from and where it is returned to.

 

 

[Sedalia Dave 12,828]

Vertical staging is either safe for a long gun in ANY condition or it is not safe for use at all.

 

Consider that rifles have been restaged at the end of a shooting string in every possible condition from open and empty to a round in the chamber with the action closed and the hammer cocked. 

 

 

 

People don't like vertical staging because they have to think rather than just drop it. If vertical staging was written into more scenarios shooters would become more familiar with it. 

 

 

 

[Assassin 1,578]

35 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

In most cases - vertical staging is in place to allow for safe downrange movement.

 

And if the directive for the vertical rack is simply there to provide for safe movement - then the make safe instruction should suffice and ANY restage that makes safe is appropriate.

 

BUT, and there is always a but; sometimes vertical staging/ restaging is in place because the flavor of the stage requires it. 

And because it is a "different" component of the shooting experience beyond always picking up off a table and returning to the table.

 

An example is the rack in the sheriff's office - you break out of jail and steal a rifle; the rifle would have been in a vertical rack in every western I have ever seen.  

The drunken deputy leaves his shotgun unattended; it would be propped up against a wall - not laying across a table.

 

There may be reasons beyond "make safe" to specify where a firearm comes from and where it is returned to.

 

 

Yes, there are exceptions as stated above. We frequently write scenarios with no instructions for gun staging or restaging. Sweeps can be shot from L or R, start position, at signal move to position 1, with $%^^ gun engage those targets with a $%^& sweep, from position 2 with #$^^ gun engage those targets in this order, from position 3 with ^%$& gun engage those targets with $%^& sweep. No make safes, no stage here or there, shooters choice. Only directives are safety directives. Shooter can make up time managing the stage the way they want, no micromanagement. Much more fun watching shooters manipulate the stage differently than the same for each. Just don't break the rules.

 

We have downrange movement on almost every stage and don't use vertical racks. We do have large berms we can turn tables towards the berms and place barriers on tables that force the shooter to return the long guns to the proper angle. Many years ago every club had little rickety vertical racks that barely stood up without a gun in them, it really soured me on vertical staging. Several of our local clubs do use vertical racks, they are at hip level, very large, and carpet covered. I don't mind them.

 

[Shooting Bull 1,964]

15 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Shooting Bull!!

 

Make it safe does not mean "put it down."  You can carry it with you to the next position then set it down.  We alway have a "prop" of some sort at each shooting position so guns can be carried along.  We also shoot some stages where the instructions specify where to set it down.  I hope this made sense.

 

I don't disagree but we're wandering too far from the OP.  The stage instructions specifically said to make the rifle safe in the vertical rack.  I agree with everyone who said the shooter chose the safer option of carrying to the next table but that wasn't the question. 

[Griff 1,561]

7 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

I don't disagree but we're wandering too far from the OP.  The stage instructions specifically said to make the rifle safe in the vertical rack.  I agree with everyone who said the shooter chose the safer option of carrying to the next table but that wasn't the question. 

Once again, safe condition for the rifle to leave the shooter's hand: action open, empty.  By all means, follow stage instructions.

 

This gun wasn't empty, contained at least 3 rounds by my count.  The closest horizontal surface facing in a safe direction was the next shooting position., only person close to hand it off to was TO, who would have had to either carry it to unloading table or also carried to the next position.

 

A modicum of uncommon good sense and fair play should be applied when determining whether adherence to a stage instruction or doing what's in the best interests of safety.  

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L 4,870]

4 hours ago, Griff said:

Once again, safe condition for the rifle to leave the shooter's hand: action open, empty.  By all means, follow stage instructions.

 

 

 

Long gun actions are no longer required to be OPEN when discarded.  
REF: SHB pp.15-16
 

 

Edited January 14 by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
edit txt

[Ace_of_Hearts 1,113]

I sure am glad that many of you don't sit on the Supreme Court.....

 

I have never, ever, ever, read a STAGE INSTRUCTION that even hinted at what to do with a malfunctioning gun.

 

 

Edited January 14 by Ace_of_Hearts

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 870]

Sure, we can put "what-ifs" in the stage instructions, but we'd probably get to where we are reading more than shooting.

Use yer noggin peoples.      Follow stage instructions exactly? No. Safe? Yes. Competitive advantage? No.  Move along...