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S.A.S.S. FIRST MATCH RANGE REPORT.


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The Hero of Canton, and Gremlin are honored to say we are now both members of S.A.S.S.

My 17 year old  son and I just attended  our first match. Big "Thank You" to Texas Ten Horns Range, and all the attendees.

Weather 33°F partly cloudy.

(First stage was hard at the loading table caping, and on the stage feeding the 87 12ga with cold fingers.)

The competitors at the range-

FRIENDLY! Helpfull, Courteous, Currious, Accomodating. Patient.
SHOUT OUT TO:
Pan Handle Slim
Mr Finger
Coffee
Cimaron Jack

If there was a question, it was answered, or I was sent to find someone who knew the answer.

1) Both Gremlin and I use cap and ball. Not all shooters have been indoctrinated to the idea that cap and ball revolvers can be loaded but not capped at a picnic table in the sun, rather than take up space on a busy firing line. Two or three people were uncomfortable with the revolver out in a loading stand. They got over it when they saw we were not flagging or capping.

2) Guncart-

My gun cart worked, but needed two big off road dolly wheels. Nothing at ten horns is paved.

Gun carts: SASS gun carts are best to be  be muzzle up and action open. My design of muzzle down action open was not ideal, and avoding flagging competitors when drawing and rotating into the vertical to go to the loading table was the reason I have reviseted the design.

3)BP CB REVOLVERS

Our preperation of greasing of arbors, plentiful wads and ball, and previous use of moose milk, let us get thru the day with no mechanical problems.

We will need to bring a cap tray or some knurled mat to the loading table to offer better control over the caps and their seating. Lost a few to slats in the wood surface.

"Broken gun" and misfire, or possible squibs are mad making.

The learning curve was steep, but by the end of the day most problems were assessed.

Him : Remington new army 1858. A pair of Pietta brassies. He had to squish #10 caps to get them to adhered to his stock nipples. But his guns had an 90-95% on cap ignition.


( Hard earned wisdom:

Cap up your revolver at home with no loads in the cylinders. Then safely fire those caps like you are at a match or playing Fort Apache. Do this for 50 or so caps, and mark with a pencil the cyls that repeatedly fail to snap.

The ones that wont fire off, why not?
How hard are they stuck on that nipple after a hammers strike? Gotta pry them off with force? Remove it, then swap the nipple, or file to reduce it's retention. Until a unexpended cap can slip on and off with mild tension. Or maybe you have to squish a cap a bit to get it to stay in place.

Observe and diagnose where spent caps are going if they fall away from nipples.
Spent caps droping into the hammer notch, or pieces wedging into a rotating cyl and needing to be snipped or pressed past causing  a jam? Thats a problem with the notch hammers. Either round off the blades of that notch to reduce its cut, or have the face of the hammer filled with a weld to make it flat and just leave the spent caps inplace to flake off at the unloading table.

Once your CB revolver can snap caps 95-100% of the time, you might be ready to make it thru a match... maybe. )


Me Uberti Walkers: beautifully made flawed guns.

No matter how pretty your new cap and ball revolver it, if you plan on using it for this game plan on rough treatment. It is the nature of the CB BP revolvers to be filthy, and manipulated roughly in their implementation. If it is wall jewellery do not bring it to SASS and expect it to work.

Factaory nipples are a no go for competition. 30%+ fail to detonate caps in a competition setting. Even with a seating tool. Caps so tight (un ignited), that to pull them off the nipple, you have to have a knife to split the sleeve of the cap. To make the gun safe on the unloading table.

The stock nipples are fat, and flash holes on the Uberti Walker are also undersized  and had to be pin reamed to allow ignition.

Just buy Slix. Then get the cap well reamed.

Caping the walker is made difficult by the too shallow caping well on the right side.

Even wiith a capping tool, it becomes too difficult to seat a cap in place for reliable ignition on a stock gun.  The Walker has to have a radius cut into the center bottom of the caping ramp to speed up cap placement. Once this is added, it gives enough room to allow for fingers or a tool, to align a cap, and begin the seat. It allows a "remingron like" easy access to the nipple.

Hammer notch caused more problems than it solved with cap debris. Was having to cut spent caps or dump them from between the frame and hammer. I am going to try the calf foot mod, if that is still shredding caps like popcorn, Im going to fill it in flat faced with the mig welder.

*Both of us decided to remove a nipple and mark the inside face of the dead chamber with a dab of bright nail polish to designate the safety cylinder for faster loading in the stand.


4) Lever Action 1892 Rifle 16 inch carbine 

It only holds 9 because of the carbine 16 inch barrel length. 10th has to be breach loaded on the clock.

Evidently for the 92 in particular our handloads have to be 1.5 inches long to function a 92. Our 357 cases ran fine. But as soon as we hit the shorter .38 SWC loads it locked up. The non wax no gas checked SWC was the only lead projectile available befor the match, but everything worked in a "fun test" but not under match conditions.

The Rossie 92 in 38/.357 choked on the
1 3/8 OAL non gas checked lead SWC 38 spl hand loads we cooked up for the match speed.

Elevator and mag advance barfed mid stage with those too short sub loads. Locking up the gun.

We were given 30 -50 ball hand loads from a generous member, loaded at 1.5 inch overall, and they ran.  Rossi ran flawlessly with 1.5 inch ball .38s.

Later after the match I got 1000 poly coated .38 round nosed 125gr projectiles from "Kojack" at the range, and will load the .38 cases to 1.5+ OAL  for the future matches with the 92.

92s will not run sub 1.5 inch rounds. Save em for the pistols.


5) The 1887 C87 Lever Action Shotgun-

It is a clock work gun. Complicated internal workings, and requires adamantly functioned lever stroke. It has a deep action well to allow loading of the magazine, and an elevator that must be manipulated in a decicive manner.

Crispy just out of the box condition was fun. Ran ok for 1/2 the day. Then a right side action guide screw started backing out, and inducing malfunctions. It did drop out " broken gun" but was luckily found and was reinstalled. Loc-tight everything on these models.

It is not load two shoot two....specificly gunsmithed yet.

I Was playing with dummy shells and figured out a fast unsmithed " load two shoot two" for next time. Just have to have a 3D understanding of the mechanism.

*UNMODIFIED 87 LOAD 2 SHOOT 2:

"Come over the top with 2 shells flat, drop one on the raised elevator all the way down, then insert into the chamber the second shell. Close the gun, and it will shoot. Crank to eject, close to feed 2."

Loc-tight or clear nail polish the threads on everything "on & in" em.

6) The costuming and holsters:

So far so good. Gremlin's slim Jims worked well, his jeans, work boots, and plaid button down shirt, palm cowboy hat all worked to get him through. He does not want a cross draw any more, so he will be getting a left hand holster, or maybe saving up and getting a buscadero rig. 

My shield shirt, jacket, wranglers and boots satisfied the matrix. My cav flap holster worked well. It is a vertical cross draw, and my modded slim jim with a lanyard worked strongside. Waiting on my reverse strong side flap cav to come in.

Here is where I throw out compliments to women like Calamity DiBar, and Sopapilla Su. Amazing costuming ( loved the leg warmers lol), and their holsters, and the steel in em. That pair of snake bite octagonal barrel stainless peace makers! ART!

7) The Firing Line:

"Like drinking from a firehose. "

Starting positions, and phrases...

Texas surender: Hands on guns.

Hands on hat.

Hands up.

Staged shotgun: load 2 shoot 2 -knock down plates.  Fail to knock down a plate? Send a second shot.

Staged rifle: loved it. Lever guns are nasty fast.

Revolvers: pattern runs, 2,2,1 holster 1,2,2,  flip or fall reducing plates.

The firing line, and intricate weapons deployments are foreign if you are from other shooting sports. One handed duelist, double handed slip fire, impresive speed and accurate fire.

Of course there were some (alot) of missed targets by the speedy shooters. But I can't throw shade, my walkers would not go off 2 out of 5 trys most of the day.

The basketball rules of non movement, the squib, broken gun, or misfire safety concerns. The hostering when everything went right. LoL.

The unloading table: Unexpended caps are a pain. I look forward to dealing with a more reliable non-stock walker next match.

Thanks to all the people here on SASS.NET that helped get us set up.

See ya soon.







 

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Edited by The Hero of Canton
Spellun
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Posted (edited)

Seems like I forgot about the need for shotgun an pistol loops Gremlin actually had some and left them at home, he used my spare belt and possibles bag as a grab bag. 

 

I was stuck using a back pocket or staging, and that was not ideal. 

 

I will pick up some loops for both for an ammo belt over my pistol belt. 

Edited by The Hero of Canton
Spellun
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You experienced problems with cap 'n ball revolvers and '92 rifles that many of us have experienced.  Good thing: you figured out how to prevent the problems.  The first challenge most CAS shooters have is getting their equipment running 100% reliable.  I charge my cylinders using a loading stand as pictured below:

 

image.png.8a709512fb8562ad343c4a4bf46253de.png

 

These cost about $20.

 

I prefer a Timer/Operator who also shoots cap 'n ball revolvers.  They know when I have a cap-only ignition and don't call a cease fire for a squib.

Edited by Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971
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Glad you both had fun.

 

Local leather guy is Danny Stinson over in Farmersville. Several of the holsters you saw Saturday were his handiwork.

His #  is 405-589-1667.

 

Cimarron Bullets are awesome and you can pick them up from Colorado Jackson at a match and save shipping. I use the 125 grain truncated cone profile in my 92s.  All three of mine like a 1.505 OAL. I'll have one for sale in about a month if you are interested. It will be slicked up and match ready. 

 

I'll have to get the length but I have a SG belt that I'll make you a deal on if you are interested.

 

Lassiter is the go to gunsmith for 87 shotguns. I have two with his mod and love them.

 

I like my Polish Capper for capping my pistols. The PCC model works on Remington and Colt clones. You can find them over in the merchant corner.

 

A loading stand is very beneficial. The photo of the one above will get you started. And yes you will find that a lot of SASS shooters have little to no experience with C&B pistols yet when given the opportunity they are all willing to learn. Every time I shoot at a new club I usually have to show the person working the unloading table what to look for. I always take my time and answer their questions. 

 

Welcome to the fire

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Great report! Try loading those 125 grainers in .357 brass due to the length overall. My Rossi HATED anything in 38 Special brass under 158 grains but would devour anything in 357 Magnum brass.

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3 minutes ago, DeaconKC said:

Great report! Try loading those 125 grainers in .357 brass due to the length overall. My Rossi HATED anything in 38 Special brass under 158 grains but would devour anything in 357 Magnum brass.

 

I load 38 special brass to .357 lengths. With cast bullets no need to crimp in the groove.  You do however need to be aware that doing this creates extra case volume so light 38 special loads have to be adjusted accordingly. For Clay Dot I had to increase 1 or 2 tenths of a grain above what other 38 special shooters were using.

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Sounds like you and Gremlin have got a good handle on things.  Once you get your nipple/cap pairing figured out you can just run some compressed air through the nipples before a match to clear’em no sense wasting perfectly good caps.  You’ve got some good pards up that a ways they’ll help and give advice when asked, don’t be shy.  I hope you both enjoy CAS as much as the rest of us and glad to see you’re a soot shooter.  :ph34r: :FlagAm:

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Glad you had a great time, and you learned some important stuff.  Lots more to learn and lots more fun to be had!

 

On that '87, you gotta rack it like you stole it.  There is no room for being gentle when working the action on an 87!  Be sure to wrap that lever with a leather wrap if you haven't yet, it might save your fingers some...  I love my 87, an original in 10ga.  But it doesn't deal well with a light hand, it likes to be treated rough and then asks for more!

 

 

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You will want the LOP on your 87 to be on the short side so that you can fully cycle the lever. As you know it has a looonnnggg throw.

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Crazy Gun Barney- you are not exagerating. 

 

Gremlin  got so sick of it he wanted to pick up a hammerless coach gun instead.

 

GREMLIN : He had never shot his revolvers like this. Especially dualist. He ended up gassed out on one handed manipulation and started a double dualist assist on the last stages. 

 

People forget what heavy work it is to thumb, present, and fire one handed. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

You will want the LOP on your 87 to be on the short side so that you can fully cycle the lever. As you know it has a looonnnggg throw.

 

Gremlin had a slight problem with it. 

I am a literal giant, so.... I never even noticed an ejection problem.

 

That 1/2 backed out action guide screw had the damn thing acting so jankey i thought it was broken. 

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Should you acquire cartridge guns with lightened springs shooting duelist will be easier.  BTW, Gremlin can shoot those revolvers two-handed in the Frontier Cartridge category.  I sometimes do this with Ruger Old Armys.  BTW, those Slim Jim holsters look good with your revolvers.

Edited by Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971
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6 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

Unfortunately cap 'n ball revolvers need fairly heavy hammer springs to keep caps in place after firing.

 

Not necessarily, cap rakes and/or proper nipples and light springs are fine.

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11 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Not necessarily, cap rakes and/or proper nipples and light springs are fine.

I'm not sure how this statement ended up in my post.  I did not type it and would not make this statement.  I edited my post to remove the sentence.

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21 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Not necessarily, cap rakes and/or proper nipples and light springs are fine.

Lightened springs are not only to keep caps on after firing, they're also needed for consistent ignition.  They "can" be a little lighter than what's commonly provided on cap guns, but they certainly can't be as light as suppository guns.  At least mine anyway.  I've tried... and had to buy new springs.  But, I didn't buy replacements from Uberti, although that's where the parts for my Colt 2nd Gen guns came from.

 

Hero, I'm glad you had a good time.  They didn't do us any favors by putting ALL the cap & ball shooters on the same posse.  But... in the future, it can be mitigated by re-charging the pistols while at the unloading table.  After a while, you get the loading procedure down, and you can watch the unloading table for 3 or 4 shooters in the time it takes to recharge your pistols.  Aids in getting all the posse chores covered, as those shooters can then relieve spotters, brass pickers or the TO, so they get a chance to shoot.  It's why I try to be among the first shooters on a stage... 

 

You did well pilgrim!  

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Speaking of what Griff said, everyone has a way of doing things that works best for them.  Just read a couple of threads how put powder in, what kind of lube, etc.etc.  Find what works best for you and stick with it.  I charge both cylinders before the first stage so I can help out after that it’s a crap shoot where in the shooting order I fall.  Fun thing is that the suppository shooters don’t have to think about any of this stuff.  Does that make us smarter than them since we’ve got more to think about?? :ph34r: :D 

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We were glad to have you both, look forward to seeing you guys again, ive never breathed so much smoke  in my life....it was like a cap & ball convention on our posse!

 

See you soon....CoJack

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GREMLIN went side by side.... I now have to walk him thru a safety disconnect, and slick up. Bakail SPR 220 12ga.

 

But I get to call the 87 all mine. 

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7 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

Speaking of what Griff said, everyone has a way of doing things that works best for them.  Just read a couple of threads how put powder in, what kind of lube, etc.etc.  Find what works best for you and stick with it.  I charge both cylinders before the first stage so I can help out after that it’s a crap shoot where in the shooting order I fall.  Fun thing is that the suppository shooters don’t have to think about any of this stuff.  Does that make us smarter than them since we’ve got more to think about?? :ph34r: :D 

Some of us suppository shooters put BP in them little eggs. We just aint all masochists.

Glad you had fun, keep coming back.

 

Imis

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2 hours ago, The Hero of Canton said:

GREMLIN went side by side.... I now have to walk him thru a safety disconnect, and slick up. Bakail SPR 220 12ga.

 

But I get to call the 87 all mine. 

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Get with Texas Gun Slinger and have him do the action job.  The work doesn't cost much and you will not be sorry you did.

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I love your alias Hero,

 

Just had my first match on the 28th at the Chisolm Trail Antique Gun Association in Wichita/Benton and had a marvelous time.  Silver Creek Jack, Chisolm and especially Chisolm Kid all were very helpful and made the match a joy to shoot.  

 

I also brought my Cap and Ball revolvers, but they are both projects in work and parts didn't make it in time for the match, so '60 had to be loaded with fewer than 5 caps and '58 had to be timed by hand, also, 58's nips weren't the right size and I hadn't tested before hand so it shed all the caps after the first shot.  I knew there would be problems going in so I brought some 22's to back up the cap and ball guns.  the '60 was given to me by a coworker who passed away from ALS yesterday.  He wanted me to take his son shooting with it sometime, so I'll probably hit up a Tulsa Club sometime next summer to try to make that happen.  

 

Would have loved to use my Polish Cappers, but they too didn't make it in time for the match.

 

My 1900's original SxS 20 Gauge was slow, but I think polishing the chambers could make her shoot about as good as she looks ;)

 

Had to borrow a couple 73 Winchesters since I don't have a lever gun anymore.  Thank you Chisolm and Chisolm Kid.

 

other than my first stage with only 4 shots taken between both pistols, I only missed two other targets, a rifle on 2 and a pistol on 3.

 

Don't have any clue what my time was on 1, but 2 was about 76 seconds I think and 3 was 62 ish.  Jack and Kid were in the low 20's for most stages I watched them shoot.

 

Here's the pics I got from the shoot.  Credit goes to my Brother in Law who also had a blast, but didn't shoot the main stages, just played around a bit after.

 

Costume needs some work, I have a Hidalgo inspired outfit I tried on before the night before the match, but I chickened out and it would have been a little cold I think.

 

Guns will get some more work done, then hopefully I can get into a match in Tulsa this summer once they're running better.  We're looking at buying a new minivan which will free up my truck to sell, so maybe I'll get a levergun before too long, we'll see.

 

 

 

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Here's the outfit I didn't wear...

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1 hour ago, El CupAJoe said:

Here's the outfit I didn't wear...

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Need to get rust / carbon stains on It to make it look indigenous and authentic.

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1 minute ago, The Hero of Canton said:

Need to get rust / carbon stains on It to make it look indigenous and authentic.

that'll happen soon enough shooting frontiersman

 

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Posted (edited)

So we come home tonight and Gremlin has got that damn SPR 220 gutted out on a towel. He has the auto-safety disconect out of it. Blithely asks: " Do you have a 1911 hammer spring?". I did.

 

Long story short: between my parts box and his youtube studied protogunsmith brain, he got it to a competitive break "feel" and will be deburing the extractors and chamber faces. Then he wants to elbow the locking lever. 

 

I have created a monster. And im proud of him.

 

(He had a white sheet of paper with the parts taprd down in the order they came out, and if it was a pin or screw it was poped thru the paper to pin it, and keep it from roling or sliding out of the tape. 

 

I had shown him the egg carton method when We did micro electric / mech upgrades to airsoft when he was younger. He modified that because the egg carton is hard to label and can be hit or scrambled)

Edited by The Hero of Canton
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