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Love or Hate?


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On 12/26/2020 at 1:33 PM, Griff said:

Folks that have watched me shoot will be flabbergasted that I, of all people, would say... :if you're waiting to see if a plate falls, you're WASTING TIME!  And if the MD sez to "knock 'em down in order", fast shooters will be voting with their feet!  

I would be careful with that assumption.    Generally its less talented shooters who assume top shooters want everything easy.   A correctly calibrated target slows nobody down.  Even if you have to shoot it in order.   Too easy targets or scenarios get really boring,  really fast.   There is a better chance I wouldn't go to a match that has brain dead up close stages compared to one that might actually make me think.

   I have to shake my head every time I see a mediocre shooter whining how a top shooter wouldn't like something.   Take Texas stars.   How many times have you heard top shooters don't like them??    top shooters generally run a star in under 2 seconds they are really easy once you know how to shoot them. 

 

   I am not a top shooter,  but I would put myself better than most on my good days.   Generally in that 13 to 17 sec a stage time for non stand and deliver matches when I'm actually interested in winning.  Falling in order is not a big deal.  You know when you pull the trigger if you hit or not. if you know you hit it low and you can reengage hit it again. If you can't reengage there is no point waiting around just move on

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It depends on the stage instructions.  We use them at the Southern Missouri Rangers.    If you are required to knock down 5 plates in 5 shots, they can be aggravating..  If you are allowed 1

Love.          Personally I think every match should have reactive targets.   A plate rack,  popper, texas star or something fun.  None are hard at the distance we shoot.    After as many be

I love 'em! Nice change up from 10-10-4 yadda yadda yadda

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2 hours ago, evil dogooder said:

If you can't reengage there is no point waiting around just move on

You made my point all over again.

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I love most all reactive targets.  This one can be a pain though.  The one at RR Bar Regulators works great.  The one at Winter Range, not so much.  I've seen full house 45s hit the front plate and it still creeeeeeeeeep on down.  If it's a falling target I want it to fall, not slowly drift down.  It's especially aggravating with this set up since you have to wait for the front plate to fall before being able to engage the next one. 

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9 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

 It's especially aggravating with this set up since you have to wait for the front plate to fall before being able to engage the next one. 


Not if misses aren’t counted.  Go ahead and let ‘er rip. Try to hit that first plate two three times before it falls. Pound it down! Ideally you want one shot left after the last plate falls rather than risk missing a lot of shots on the dump plate.

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46 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:


Not if misses aren’t counted.  Go ahead and let ‘er rip. Try to hit that first plate two three times before it falls. Pound it down! Ideally you want one shot left after the last plate falls rather than risk missing a lot of shots on the dump plate.

Hmm. Now I'm not sure...

 

Shoot the plate, rack another round, and let 'er rip...

 

Plate is half down, round hits it and ricochets over the berm...

 

Is this a safe challenge?

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7 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

Hmm. Now I'm not sure...

 

Shoot the plate, rack another round, and let 'er rip...

 

Plate is half down, round hits it and ricochets over the berm...

 

Is this a safe challenge?


Really? Are we now penalizing shooters for where a ricochet might go?

 

Geez.

 

edit:


No offense intended.

 

 John I hope you will visit us so I can show you how to have fun shooting this target.

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11 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:


Really? Are we now penalizing shooters for where a ricochet might go?

 

Geez.

I know of an unrelated range (not SASS) where a church is beyond the berm. After many close calls, either the range or the church can be occupied but never both at the same time.

 

If a range had a reasonable berm but chose a target setup that sent rounds at my house (beyond the berm), it isn't the shooter that would be penalized.

 

I do own every round I fire until its final resting place, and the above post made me rethink how it might put pressure on top shooters and create fun versus how a top shooter might send rounds much higher than aimed.

 

FWIW, I put safety before fun with firearms, and I see a safety concern. Maybe it is not possible to be so fast as to hit the half-fallen target a second time. But I am asking if it is possible.

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Just now, John Kloehr said:Maybe it is not possible to be so fast as to hit the half-fallen target a second time. But I am asking if it is possible.


I try, but I’m not sure I have ever done it.  Shooting Bull and some others probably can, as they are faster than me.  In any case,  I  get hit with ricochets at every SASS match I have ever attended.  They are, fortunately, more aggravating than dangerous, assuming you wear eye protection of course.

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5 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:


I try, but I’m not sure I have ever done it.  Shooting Bull and some others probably can, as they are faster than me.  In any case,  I  get hit with ricochets at every SASS match I have ever attended.  They are, fortunately, more aggravating than dangerous, assuming you wear eye protection of course.

Everything he shoots at is an upward shot. (He lays on the ground a lot!)

 

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I've been hit by a bit of shrapnel now and then particularly stray shot at cowboy shoots, also once nailed my lady in the gut with an FMJ 9mm ricochet shooting Smoke and Hope in Steel Challenge.

 

We suck that up at the competitions, not the same for a place beyond the berm.

 

I think the rack looks fun, I think there might be ranges where it might not be a good idea.

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1 hour ago, J-BAR #18287 said:


Not if misses aren’t counted.  Go ahead and let ‘er rip. Try to hit that first plate two three times before it falls. Pound it down! Ideally you want one shot left after the last plate falls rather than risk missing a lot of shots on the dump plate.

 

At Winter Range they have two of these racks. They set them side by side. Ten shots to knock down ten plates. In this scenario you have two choices. You can wait for the front plate to drop (wasting time) or you can hit the front plate on one rack then the front plate on the other rack then go back to the first rack for the remaining plates and finally the second rack for remaining plates. 

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8 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

At Winter Range they have two of these racks. They set them side by side. Ten shots to knock down ten plates. In this scenario you have two choices. You can wait for the front plate to drop (wasting time) or you can hit the front plate on one rack then the front plate on the other rack then go back to the first rack for the remaining plates and finally the second rack for remaining plates. 


Two racks on one stage would be grounds for complaint in my opinion.  Crappy design is when the shooter’s time is limited by prop mechanics rather than the shooter’s skill.
 

You need to pay us a visit!!

 

:D

 

 

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1 hour ago, J-BAR #18287 said:


Two racks on one stage would be grounds for complaint in my opinion.  Crappy design is when the shooter’s time is limited by prop mechanics rather than the shooter’s skill.
 

You need to pay us a visit!!

 

:D

 

 

 

Would love to come visit. I think you’ve got a newbie there. Lumpy guy that likes grits. He’s a royal PITA but his wife is an absolute doll. :wub::lol:

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On 12/28/2020 at 8:15 PM, Shooting Bull said:

 

Would love to come visit. I think you’ve got a newbie there. Lumpy guy that likes grits. He’s a royal PITA but his wife is an absolute doll. :wub::lol:


Yes she is!!

 

She takes good care of us at our Sam’s Club!!  :)

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13 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

I love most all reactive targets.  This one can be a pain though.  The one at RR Bar Regulators works great.  The one at Winter Range, not so much.  I've seen full house 45s hit the front plate and it still creeeeeeeeeep on down.  If it's a falling target I want it to fall, not slowly drift down.  It's especially aggravating with this set up since you have to wait for the front plate to fall before being able to engage the next one. 

I dunno, as long as the plates all drop the same for each shooter, it would even out. Now, if it falls slower due to mouse phart loads, that is on the shooter's choice.

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I have a ricochet still stuck in my hat.It came from a different bay.& I had my back to the bay.I'm glad I had a hat on cause it would had put a ding in my skull.

 

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Largo

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A nearly complete ricochet hit my shoulder at a State championship.  I picked it up and glued it to my Category first place plaque.  Looks kinda cool!
 

Of course, a few words were uttered at the moment.
 

:lol:

 

 

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1 hour ago, DeaconKC said:

I dunno, as long as the plates all drop the same for each shooter, it would even out. Now, if it falls slower due to mouse phart loads, that is on the shooter's choice.

Some 32 cal rounds have a problem with the first plate. That is a lot of weight to get moving.

 

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2 hours ago, DeaconKC said:

I dunno, as long as the plates all drop the same for each shooter, it would even out. Now, if it falls slower due to mouse phart loads, that is on the shooter's choice.

Even out?

I understand what you are saying and at first glance - it makes sense.

But it doesn't "even out" as it creates an inconsistent factor in the scoring.

Limiting some and not others.

 

Shooter A can cycle their firearm and engage targets at a 1 shot every second pace.

Shooter B can cycle their firearm and engage targets at a 1 shot every 2 seconds pace.

Shooter C can cycle their firearm and engage targets at a 1 shot every 3 seconds pace.

 

All three engage a target array that (based on the speed of the falling plates and visual availability of the next target) governs their pace to 1 shot every 2 seconds.

 

Shooters C and B are not delayed or handicapped by this array as their ability is equal to or slower than the target array pacing.

I.E.  shooter B is going to shoot at the 1 shot every 2 seconds pace anyway. They are not delayed or waiting for the next target as their pace matches the pace of targets falling.

Shooter C is going to shoot their 1 shot every 3 seconds pace any.  They are not delayed or waiting for the next target as their pace is slower than the pace of targets falling.

 

But Shooter A is delayed by a pace of 1 second per shot. 

A 10 plate array means a stage where Shooter A's time (on that array) should be 10 seconds faster than Shooter B's is now a wash (on that array). 

This is effectively a penalty assigned to Shooter A solely because their skill set exceeds the target array.

This would be similar to stating a 13 second shooter should slow down to 20 seconds per stage because the spotters are only capable of spotting at a 20 second or slower pace (but as long as everybody shoots at that pace or slower - it all evens out).

 

Our scores should reflect the ability of the shooter (speed, accuracy, etc.).

Not be restricted by the implementation of a speed governor.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Our scores should reflect the ability of the shooter (speed, accuracy, etc.)

 

As by others stated before, a lot depends on the stage writing with such a plate rack. With an interesting stage writing it comes to the "etc." of the shooters abilities. For example if you have more rounds than plates to engange the rack or you can alternate with other targets then you have a lot of options to chose your tactics.

 

But even if there's just one plate rack with equal number of rounds and plates (like in your scenario) the scores would still reflect the shooters' skills as it depends on

  • accuracy: where do you hit the targets (as high as possible without missing)
  • timing: how close you can break the shot when the prior plate is down (and please consider that as each plate is smaller those intervals get shorter)
  • choosing gear: Like in every other sport with variable conditions and setups the participant should always choose the most appropriate equiment (within the rules) to approach each task. While light loaded 38s are beneficial in most stages, sometimes they're just disadvantageous

 

Imho, if the props work the same for all shooters I can hardly imagine stages where the scores don't reflect the shooters' skills (but not always the same skills, of course).

 

Equanimous

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13 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

I know of an unrelated range (not SASS) where a church is beyond the berm. After many close calls, either the range or the church can be occupied but never both at the same time.

 

If a range had a reasonable berm but chose a target setup that sent rounds at my house (beyond the berm), it isn't the shooter that would be penalized.

 

I do own every round I fire until its final resting place, and the above post made me rethink how it might put pressure on top shooters and create fun versus how a top shooter might send rounds much higher than aimed.

 

FWIW, I put safety before fun with firearms, and I see a safety concern. Maybe it is not possible to be so fast as to hit the half-fallen target a second time. But I am asking if it is possible.

Is double or even triple tapping the first target of the tombstone knockdowns possible? Sure, I’ve double tapped one of those with my rifle many times.
 

We shoot a match that uses 5 knockdowns arrayed left to right. I routinely do a double tap sweep on that array. It’s faster and I don’t have to engage the dump target. Just be sure not to miss with shot #10.

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3 hours ago, largo casey #19191 said:

Why don't shooters carry 45s in they're carts just for these?

                                                                                                             Largo

 

Because every time I try to use my STI 2011 other shooters get mad at me. :(

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The BIG BORE guys have a distinct advantage on knockdowns since the targets are calibrated for 38's.  My Navies in .36 will take them down slowly but when I use a 45 Colt, those plates go down with authority so I can really hot rod through the stage.  It's my big chance at being in the winner's circle.:lol:;)

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1 hour ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

The BIG BORE guys have a distinct advantage on knockdowns since the targets are calibrated for 38's.  My Navies in .36 will take them down slowly but when I use a 45 Colt, those plates go down with authority so I can really hot rod through the stage.  It's my big chance at being in the winner's circle.:lol:;)

 

When you encounter pistol knock downs load your 36 Navy's with 777. The extra oomph will knock those plates down no problem.

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